I'm against church shopping

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If you haven’t been in the postion of other people you are lucky

The priest we had disbanded the Altar Society, and the Knights of Columbus, and the choir

We had no music at mass, mass lasted about 40 minutes…people left in droves
 
If you haven’t been in the postion of other people you are lucky

The priest we had disbanded the Altar Society, and the Knights of Columbus, and the choir

We had no music at mass, mass lasted about 40 minutes…people left in droves
I’m curious as to how a priest can disband a Knights of Columbus council. They are totally independent of the Church.
 
They weren’t allowed to meet on church property…they had no where to go…he closed another Parrish that had a school and merged it with another one

He deliberately targeted the parish with the school…the Bishop was sick with cancer and gave him carte blanche to do what he wanted to…People were praying inside the church he told them to leave he was taking God out of the church…He was so nasty, never had a kind or a gentle way about him. He was like a bulldozer
 
Well, if he is openly engaged in an “active” relationship, that is a horth of a different color.

I guess I have been fortunate. Even in my travels, while encountering different “customs”, I have not seen or even personally heard of, some the things I read here. Guess I’m just in a lucky bubble. 🙂
Aw, you are lucky. One thing I would love to do is experience other rites and also travel to other parts of the country.
I’ve only heard Mass in latin, english and spanish, a little in arabic…
 
Sorry for three in a row. Hope this is OK to post.

I thought it might be interesting for you to hear exactly why we (ex-evangelical Protestants) hopped to four churches in thirteen years.

Years 1-2: We attended a Christian and Missionary Alliance “church plant,” which means that we and several other families were trying to start up a C & MA church. It was a lot of work, and at the time, we had two small children. We tithed approx 25% of our income to this effort, and my husband and I were involved at least five nights/days a week in this church, mainly in children’s and youth ministries.

But the church plant failed, miserably. It dwindled to only three families, and the two other families didn’t agree with our ideas about how the church could continue, so they told us that we should leave, and we did.

Years 3-4: We attended a Reformed Church in America (Calvinist). This liturgical church was a stark contrast to the free-wheeling C & MA church plant. We learned all about sacraments and TULIP and Providence and we saw our pastor wear vestments for the first time in our lives. We were very involved in various youth and children’s ministries.

Then the bombshell dropped. One Saturday night, we received a call from one of the elders (a female) informing us that the pastor had been fired. We were stunned and asked why. She said that “it” had been going on for six years, and that they had finally succeeded in getting rid of him. She wouldn’t tell us what “it” was. :eek:

We really liked that pastor! But we trusted the leadership and stuck it out…until they hired a woman pastor. That’s when we left. Both my husband and I believed that it was unBiblical for a church to have a woman pastor. We informed the elders and left amicably, although they probably shook their heads at our old-fashioned ideas.

Years 5-6: We went back to my childhood church, the church where my husband and I spent our teenaged years, the church where we were married, a Conference Baptist Church.

It had changed a lot. It was definitely not the church of our childhood and teenaged days.

We tried to fit in. The two worship service choices were “Contemporary” and “Rock.” No traditional music. No hymnals. You had to audition to be in the choir. Only professional musicians played the piano.

I worked with VBS, and chaired VBS one year, and had a terrible time finding people willing to help me. (In previous years, they had hired a “professional VBS team” to run their VBS, so they didn’t have to do much of anything). What a switch from the years that I grew up there and many ladies and many of the men and almost all the teenagers volunteered to help the whole week!

I started a drama ministry with the teenagers, and that’s what did us in. The pastor’s wife accused me of taking over her “practice time” in the sanctuary (I asked to use the sanctuary ONE week). She was…well, the word rhymes with witchy. I couldn’t help but wish that she would try some of her nasty tricks OUTSIDE of the church walls, because then non-Christian people would slap her silly and put a stop to her behavior. (Christian people, including me, were too nice to her and therefore enabled her to continue to be nasty and self-centered.)

But the day after the teenagers presented their drama, we left that church. We talked to a deacon and explained that if the pastor couldn’t control his own wife, then how on earth could he pastor a church? (I believe the passage about the pastor having one wife and managing his family well is in one of the letters to St. Timothy.)

Years 7-13: We attended an Evangelical Free Church in America. I’ve talked about this before on this forum, so I’ll just summarize by saying that the church kicked us out after we served for several years in children’s ministries. They had a tribunal, a woman pastor cooked up a stew of lies, people we had never met and who had never met us believed her, and we were told to leave the church. It was cruel, capricious, and I had nightmares for a year about being chased, tortured, and killed by these people.

Our daughter told us that she had always known that the church was evil and that we never should have gone there. She still doesn’t attend a church. Pray for her.

After the ousting and the accompanying shunning, I didn’t open my Bible for over a year because I didn’t trust it anymore. The pastors at that church had used the Bible to justify their heinous accusations against us. How could I know that I wasn’t also twisting the Bible into something evil? So I didn’t read it.

I told my husband that I would never join a church again unless a church wooed us like a lover woos a bride.

We prayed that God would lead us to a group of Christians who were truly serious about serving God.

He answered that prayer. It took us two years to recognize the answer and then we said, “God, surely you don’t mean to lead us into the CATHOLIC CHURCH, do You?!”:eek:

Yes, He did!

Please keep in mind that we didn’t just start attending each church. For several weeks or months, we “visited” churches, attending their Sunday schools and worship services and often their midweek prayer services (that’s where you find out what the church is REALLY made of–the Wednesday night prayer service!). Our daughters visited their Sunday school classes and clubs and youth groups.

This was extremely hard. Imagine dating someone different every week for weeks.

Church hopping is not all about meeting needs. It’s about survival as Christians.

Protestants know in their heart of hearts that we are supposed to be part of the Church, but they don’t know exactly what that means. So they keep searching and keep getting disappointed and disillusioned, and many will end up leaving the church altogether and retaining only a vague memory of what it means to be a Christian. It’s so sad.
 
Someone has raised the issue of our obligation to support our own parish financially.

Our diocese has some kind of “parish sharing program,” in which tithes from a richer church are sent to a poorer church to “help them meet their many needs.”

I’m not sure exactly how it works. But I know it’s there.

So is this a normal thing in all dioceses?

I’m not saying that this gives us an excuse to not give to our home parish. But it sounds like the dioceses are dealign with “church hopping” by making sure that parishes don’t suffer financially and die because their people are leaving to attend different parishes.
In my diocese, and indeed I think it’s common across most Irish dioceses, each household is sent a box of small envelopes once a year - one envelope for each Sunday and holy day of obligation. On each envelope is the name of the parish and there is space to specify how much of your contribution is to go to the church and how much goes to your priests. So if you go to Mass in another parish of the diocese but use one of the envelopes, your contribution will go to your parish. However, I do know that some dioceses operate differently, whereby the diocese determines how much money will go to each parish - I suppose this is an important system where there are churches in socially deprived areas which would not receive much money at collection time.

I agree with your earlier post too, Cat, about not calling “church shoppers” Protestants. As I have said, I think we all agree that the validity of such and such a Mass is not what is being questioned - the readings will all be the same, as will the prayers, and we will all receive the Body of Christ. It certainly isn’t all about liturgical abuse concerns either - the Mass is a time when one’s relationship with God should be enriched and developed - only 45 minutes per week for most people. A particular priest’s sermon may not ‘speak’ to everyone, though he is not necessarily a bad preacher (BTW, I’m not saying that a priest should be a ‘people-pleaser’ re sermons!), or the style of music may not be helpful to a particular person in focusing on God in prayer, or maybe they feel more connected to God in a traditional-style church with ornate high-altars, mosaics, fine artwork, pews which actually face the altar rather than other members of the congregation. This is not an example of an “I” mentality that I am displaying here - rather they are examples of decisions which every Catholic has the liberty to make if it is going to enrich their prayer-life, foster a greater appreciation of the Mass, and develop a stronger relationship with God.
 
From the original post:
I think it fosters division within the church.
It’s becoming rather clear that being stricter than the bishop when telling other people what parish they should belong to won’t do much for unity in the Church, either. 😉

Seriously, though, I think you bring up some great reasons for at least giving one’s local parish serious consideration. Having said that, though, there have been very good counter arguments posted by people who found that, in good conscience and for the peace of everyone involved, if nothing else, they needed to go elsewhere. This is why bishops lift the old requirement.

This is my two cents, then: I think that letting your bishop be the bishop is pretty good for unity, too.
 
I do not why anyone should care or even be against attending a church outside of parish boundries. The Church allows it. It is irrelevant what others think.
 
I notice a lot of people around here advocating switching to another (Catholic) church in order to get the right pastor, liturgical style, CCD, outreach programs, etc.

I just want to go on record that I disagree with this for several reasons, which I’ll list.
  1. I believe in doing things locally as a general rule of living. I think it strengthens local communities.
  2. I think commuting a longer distance to go to church is wasteful of time and gasoline.
  3. I think the pre-Vatican 2 rule of enrollment in ones geographically closest parish fostered a stronger local church
  4. I think our desire to church shop is a symptom of our consumeristic mobile society, from which I wish to get away from.
  5. I think Sunday should be a day of rest, not a day to commute a long distance, go shopping, or do anything that creates work for others.
  6. I think it fosters division within the church.
As a “commuter Catholic” myself, I suppose I could explain and justify some of the reasons for that:
  1. Parish boundaries are arbitrary. Sometimes don’t know which parish community you live in, or is in fact, not the geographicly nearest. My previous house was 3 miles from my “local” parish, even though there was another parish only 1/2 mile from my house (but in a different zip code).
  2. Most of the parishioners in my “local” parish are commuters from other parts of town. The demographics of my “local” parish do not match the demographics of the surrounding neighborhood,
  3. Not comfortable with the evangelical megachurch worship style of my “local” parish. I have tried to adapt for 4 years, and I will never be comfortable with it. I prefer to attend a mass that doesn’t emulate an evangelical protestant service.
 
I think that as long as the Masses are not all alike, then the Church is wise to allow people to attend the parish of their choice to fulfill their obligation. If all the Masses were alike, then it really wouldn’t matter which parish we attend. Yes, we might have more friends at a certain parish, but we are not supposed to be attending Mass just to be with our friends, are we?
 
But, do you really do your children service within the faith, when you teach them that if you don’t like this priest, just head on over to another parish? Does that not sow the seeds of Protestantism?

Don’t forget, we all have the opportunity to teach our children and grandchildren at home as well. Don’t lay it all at the feet of your priest on Sunday morning.
I do agree that parents must take a more active role in teaching their children the faith. That’s a big reason why I don’t support Catholic schools, since I feel that they encourage parents to abdicate their responsibility as parents. (That’s another thread though.) But I think it would be much more helpful to raise the children in the Catholic faith if it’s not being undermined at Mass.

As for Protestantism, doesn’t exposing your child to a heterodox priest who teaches that it’s ok to pick and choose what you want to believe, rather than submitting to the teachings of the Church, also sew the seeds of Protestantism? “The priest disagrees with the Church, therefore I can disagree with the Church too.”
 
Catholic schools are wonderful. Kids get a real sense of their faith…they have so much richer teaching at school. They do things or used to do them, like ransoming a pagan baby, May crownings, First Holy Communions and confirmations were so much nice done in a school setting

I never regretted sending my kids to Catholic school
 
Catholic schools are wonderful. Kids get a real sense of their faith…they have so much richer teaching at school. They do things or used to do them, like ransoming a pagan baby, May crownings, First Holy Communions and confirmations were so much nice done in a school setting

I never regretted sending my kids to Catholic school
I started another thread about Catholic schools under Family Life, since I figured people would respond to that. Feel free to post there. 🙂

Anyone who has a response to my comment about how I do not support Catholic schools, please post on the thread, “Are Catholic schools a good thing?” in the Family Life thread, so we don’t derail this thread. 😉
 
I think that as long as the Masses are not all alike, then the Church is wise to allow people to attend the parish of their choice to fulfill their obligation.
Or, as Satan would say (as he rubs his hands in glee)

Divide and Conquer 👍
 
Or, as Satan would say (as he rubs his hands in glee)

Divide and Conquer 👍
Choosing to go to a specific parish is not divide and conquer and most certainly does not play into Satan’s hands.

If the Church doesn’t have a problem with it, then why do you?
 
Or, as Satan would say (as he rubs his hands in glee)

Divide and Conquer 👍
Doesn’t Satan also rub his hands with glee when a priest preaches in favor of gay marriage, especially if this causes scandal to children and young people who are impressionable in their faith?

What would you suggest to a parent in that situation, or in the situations mentioned on this thread, to protect their children from scandal in this situation? I suppose a parent could go home after such a homily and explain to their children why the priest was wrong, but doesn’t that also expose the children to the seeds of Protestantism? “We disagree with the priest, and here’s why, based on our interpretation of some church documents.” Plus, doesn’t this dangerously undermine a child’s faith in priests, and therefore also sew the seeds of Protestantism?

What does a parent in such a situation do?
 
I’m disappointed no one responded to my earlier point. 😦 😉

Sometimes, remaining in your “local” parish can foster a “protestant” attitude as well. People become so entrenched in their parish that, if it should need to close (as many parishes will continue to do in the coming years), those people are at a loss. For them, their parish is THE Church. Sadly, I’ve seen many such people simply stop attending Mass because they lost thier parish. It’s important to realize that the Church is bigger than one parish.
So, is the priest at fault here, or the Bishop, for allowing it to occur. Frankly, if the Bishop is aware and allows it to continue then I think the fault lies with him.
It’s not always that simple. Some priests can be really obstinate, even after being corrected by the bishop. And with the number of active priests continuing to decline, sometimes it’s a choice between a priest who does questionable things vs. no priest at all.
I guess I have been fortunate. Even in my travels, while encountering different “customs”, I have not seen or even personally heard of, some the things I read here. Guess I’m just in a lucky bubble. 🙂
I hear you on this! I can’t even imagine encountering some of the craziness many of the posters here have spelled out. I pray I never do!
 
Choosing to go to a specific parish is not divide and conquer and most certainly does not play into Satan’s hands.

If the Church doesn’t have a problem with it, then why do you?
The title of the thread is “I’m against church shopping”.

I’m simply participating in the discussion. 😉

The church allows lots of things that people don’t agree with, now doesn’t it? :rolleyes:
 
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