I'm at a loss: Differing Liturgies

[Suudy]

My wife and I attended mass this morning at a new parish. My wife loved it. I hated it.

I felt the entire mass was a happy, clappy feel-good affair. It reminded me of my Assembly of God days. The Hosanna had tamborines and clapping, encouraged by the choir leader no less. During the Our Father, the entire congregation stretched across isles to hold hands, and when I refused, I was given a stern look. There were 8 eucharistic ministers and the priest did nothing. Granted it was a large congregation, probably about 200, but 8 EMs?

The only reverent part of the mass was the communion song. I was fine with the homily, as the Knights of Columbus were holding a fund raiser after mass, and the priest talked about stewardship and how it related to todays gospel. And the priest said all the prayers very deliberately and reverence.

Well, after mass it erupted into a fight between my me and my wife. She’s irritated that I was irritated. She said that is was the most fun she’s had at mass in quite a while. I don’t think it is about fun–I want reverence. I couldn’t help but think how inappropriate the tamborines and clapping were in light of the re-presentation of Christ’s death. It isn’t a party!

She says I’m trivializing everything. That it doesn’t matter what the music is, as long as people like it. It doesn’t matter that there are 3 girl altar servers, even though there are plenty of boys in the congregation of the appropriate age. It doesn’t matter that there are 8 EM’s and the priest does nothing, as long as everyone gets communion.

Anyways, the argument boiled down to her going to mass there and me going to mass elsewhere. We don’t have children yet (just got married about 3 months ago), so we don’t have to worry about that issue (yet). I’m concerned about unity in the family, but going to mass together ends up more divisive.

I know I’m part of the problem, but I can’t seem to overlook the irreverence in such a mass. I can overlook the things like glass chalices, a wire crucifix, huge baptismal pool at the back of the sanctuary, and perhaps even hand holding at the Our Father (eventually). But the music is intolerable!

I’d love to hear people’s take on this. And any advise, especially from those in similar situations, would be greatly appreciated.

 

[puzzleannie]

I think there is no real problem about where to attend Mass. I think their is a real problem about a married couple (let’s leave the aunt and everyone else out of it) communicating and sharing their faith, their feelings about the faith and the church, their expectations about Mass itself, their understanding of Mass itself, with assistance of people in a position to answer their questions. I hear two people with disagreements on peripherals, but the story did not relate disagreement or even discussion about the reality of the Mass through its essentials.

 

[mary_bobo]

What a sad situation. You did not say if your wife was raised Catholic. At any rate, I understand how you feel. I frequently would prefer a little more reverence in my Masses. Is it possible to find a third church that might meet both your needs? I will pray that you find a solution to this problem.

 

[Pong]

Er… the Mass is not meant to be a funeral procession. Tambourines during the Hosana are not inappropriate; I don’t image the saints in heaven singing the sanctus are doing so with stony faces. You seem to be equating reverence with one particular type of worship. “Happy Clappy” is not necessarily irreverent. We should be celebrating our faith at Mass, not mourning it. If you don’t like that particular style, fine, but it doesn’t make it wrong.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

This doesn’t sound like the type of parish I’d be happy in either.

But - that being said - it sounds like you have some bigger issues than tamborines and altar girls. This issue could be the first of many that the two of you divide on; and that, as you know, isn’t good.

 

[dbacks5439]

The Roman Missal states what’s to be done and what’s not. Tambourines and other abuses you witnessed are either prohibited by the Missal or not mentioned. If it is not mentioned, then past precedent (spelling?) prevails. So tambourines would fall under past precedent, which would mean that they are not to be used in the Liturgy. That being said, to go against what the Missal says is disobeying Rome. Explain this to your wife and ask her if she would feel just as “clappy-happy” knowing she’s disobeying Rome.
Pong, you're right, we should celebrate our faith. But since the Mass is the re-representation of Calvary (reason we have a crucifix over the altar), we should place ourselves in the positions that the Apostles and Mary were in. In fact, the only people who clapped and danced and were happy were the Roman guards, who killed Christ. Just keep that in mind.

 

[Sarabande]

This doesn’t sound like the type of parish I’d be happy in either.

But - that being said - it sounds like you have some bigger issues than tamborines and altar girls. This issue could be the first of many that the two of you divide on; and that, as you know, isn’t good.

I agree with this. It’s not a parish or at least a mass I’d want to be a part of either.

BUT, the issue is more of how you and your wife looks at your own faith and spirituality. This is something that I think probably should be discussed in more detail without getting hot and angry over. There is obviously a division on worship - perhaps not faith - but on worship and how you both receive your spiritual nourishment.

I do not know your wife or you, so I am in no position to make any assumptions. As someone else said, a discussion needs to be made about what makes the mass so sacred and important. Does having “fun” equate to being sacred, reverent or important? Maybe yes, maybe no. If no, then are we there only to be entertained. If yes, then there needs to be some sort of compromise on the kind of mass you will both attend. If she really gets her spiritual nourishment from this mass and you get yours from something more reverent in your eyes, then perhaps you can switch off every other week, attending mass at your church one Sunday and her church the following Sunday.

You are right, it will probably be harder when you have children as it is better for parents to be in agreement on how to support and nurture their children’s spiritual lives rather than be at opposite ends of the spectrum. So, this really something that needs to be rectified sooner than later.

God Bless and good luck.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

The Roman Missal states what’s to be done and what’s not. Tambourines and other abuses you witnessed are either prohibited by the Missal or not mentioned. If it is not mentioned, then past precedent (spelling?) prevails. So tambourines would fall under past precedent, which would mean that they are not to be used in the Liturgy. That being said, to go against what the Missal says is disobeying Rome. Explain this to your wife and ask her if she would feel just as “clappy-happy” knowing she’s disobeying Rome.

Pong, you're right, we should celebrate our faith. But since the Mass is the re-representation of Calvary (reason we have a crucifix over the altar), we should place ourselves in the positions that the Apostles and Mary were in. In fact, the only people who clapped and danced and were happy were the Roman guards, who killed Christ. Just keep that in mind.

Time to be misunderstood again …

I hate tamborines. I’m not fond of guitar music. This doesn’t sound like a mass I’d enjoy.

But - they are NOT, in fact, prohibited. The GIRM and music in Catholic Worship make mention of “other instruments other than the organ” being used.

As I have been instructed - by people who hold degrees, yes DOCTORATES in canon law and liturgy - is that when documents don’t mention something, we cannot infer it is prohibited. Meaning, silence is just that. If something is prohibited, it will be mentioned.

 

[Suudy]

Thanks for all the replies. I would like to clarify a few points.

She was raised Catholic. She attended a Catholic school through 8th grade, then went to a public high school. I was not raised Catholic. In fact, I was raised nothing–my father hates religion in general, referring it to a “refuge for the weak minded.” (I don’t know if that’s a quote or something he made up.) I attended an Assembly of God through high school and college, than eventually converted to Catholocism on Easter '04.

In terms of our catechesis, I am more read than she is. During my conversion, I read numerous books, sat through 2 years of RCIA (I didn’t get confirmed the first time around since I wasn’t sure), subscribe to and read a couple of Catholic magazines (This Rock is one). After all the preparation, I’ve found myself more in tune with the more orthodox. My wife had not, up to this point, found my orthodoxy a problem.

As far as our faith, there are differences. I’m far more cerebral. I think about my faith, and how to express it, more than she. I internalize a lot, and I find private expression of faith more fulfilling. I enjoy exploring the “how” and “why” of our faith, rather than just accepting it. For me, reverence is the best way I know and understand to glorify God.

She, on the other hand, is far more outgoing. She enjoys group prayer, finds more fulfillment in expression, and loves singing. The holding hands during the Our Father is very rewarding for her. Expression, especially expression in unity, of faith very important to her. For her, exuberant praise of God is the best way she knows to glorify God.

We have gone to 4 different parishes since moving. I have only found 1 I have liked, and she has found 3 she liked. Two of the 4 have no kneelers, so we agreed to reduce that list to one of 2–the one that I like and the one we went to today. She finds my favorite boring and depressing. I find her favorite too boisterous and irreverent.

You know, reading your responses, and thinking of my responses to them, has made me think of something. We both find our expression “correct” and feel the other person is “wrong.” Perhaps, if we can both accept the other’s style without judgement or irritation, we can both go to the same mass with the understanding that we both experience it very differently. I don’t like the idea of trading off parishes each week, because we both would like to settle on a single parish and become involved.

(Plus, it has helped to sit down and relax and think about it. My initial post was very soon after the argument.)

 

[Pious_Mat]

There’s no sin in being a little bubbly at Mass, but a few abuses were committed here. First, the priest didn’t distribute communion, which he must do unless he is too ill or infirm. Next, the use of 8 EMHCs definitely doesn’t line up with the GIRM’s ruleo of thumb about using them to stop “great delay.” Last I checked, holding hands during the Our Father is also an abuse.

Although tambourines and guitar music aren’t explicitly condemned, many clerics, especially traditionalists, view them as too casual, and not reflective of the consistency and antiquity of the Mass. It’s almost like going to a Los Angeles tatoo parlour and hearing Frank Sinatra over the speakers–someone out of place and gauche. There is also precedent for musical limitations on the Mass. In 1904, Pope Leo made severe restrictions on the music to be used at Mass, limiting intrumentation to the organ only.

Most of all, it must be realized that the Mass isn’t about keeping us entertained, it’s about pleasing God through offering to Him the most meaningful sacrifice in the universe–that of His own son. Even if Mass were intentionally made the most boring thing in the world, it would not detract from the fact that the Mass is the holiest thing on the face of the Earth.

 

[YADA]

Pong, you’re right, we should celebrate our faith. But since the Mass is the re-representation of Calvary (reason we have a crucifix over the altar), we should place ourselves in the positions that the Apostles and Mary were in. In fact, the only people who clapped and danced and were happy were the Roman guards, who killed Christ. Just keep that in mind.

Actually, while anamnesis is taking place [remembering in a Jewish sense - being made present at a once in a time event] Sunday - every Sunday - is a celebration of Easter - it is the Resurrection we C-E-L-E-B-R-A-T-E that followed the cross.

Now, I personally like [and dislike] various music [and song genres] and I have preferences for various mucical instruments. To make a decision not to worship wih a spouse over the ceebration of a single Mass seems to be absurd *.

Is there only one weekend Mass celebrated at this parish? Our parish celebrates five [5] Masses each weekend, they all are a little bit different…the Staurday Vigil Mass usually just has a cantor and an accompaniest [who plys both the piano and organ depending upon the music], the Sunday Masses start at 7;30 with just a cantor [maybe the accompaniest part time] - they don’t sing much especially during communion, the 9:00 AM Mass is more for families and has a cantor, accompaniest and a guitar [we don;t now but have had flutes at this Mass in the past], the 11:00 AM Mass has a full chior and the 6:00 PM is a Life Teen Mass with a "band - guitars, drums ad otherinstruments].

Parishes that offerfewer Masses may vary the content in order to appeal to the tastes of parishioners [if not this week, then next…]

This parish proabably has a committee that chooses the music [our does]. This committee is probably looking for people to assist in the process. It is work though, and a commitment. Additionally, you have to have a tough skin because there are always more people who want to complain than there are who volunteer to actually do something [like sing, play an instrument or even just select the music]

The music committee in my parish has spent hours reading the lectionary for Christmas and selected the music for all the Masses. The Choir and musicians, cantors have been working on these pieces already - they are volunteers who give up four or five saturdays a year for workshops and one evening a week for practice…they often times sing/play at more than one Mass a Sunday - sing at weddings and funerals when requested to…

Our music minister will get these comments on the very same Mass:

The music was great / awful

The music today was too high / low / fast / slow

Why don’t we ever sing contemporary / traditional songs anymore?

The music was too loud / too quiet

I hate the drums, guitar, piano

There was too much / little music

We sang too much / too little

Give your parish a real try over a period of months, volunteer with the music ministry [even if it is just to assit in music selection] and be open to a variety of tastes.

And remember David played a variety of instruments before the Lord, sang many hymns [some eemingly in complaint against God]. david *danced before the Lord and he even danced in a state of complete undress!
I am sure this was the response of some
or this
and this
and even this

 

[TOP]

Suudy,
I’m Roman Catholic and my wife is Byzantine Catholic. The first time she went to the N.O., she almost went into shock. Guitars, girl alter servers, even the sign of peace are things she had never experienced before. I was just glad to be back with the Church after being away most my life. I have been to her home Church quite a few times, including weddings and funerals, and find them very reverent as well as enthic. But, I’m not Slavic. I love the TLM and it would be great to have one near us, but that isn’t an option at this time. We go to our only and own parish Mass which is done correctly in the N.O. form. She comes with me because she is my wife and as long as there is no abuse, she is obedient to what the Church allows despite her feelings. I go to the N.O. for mostly the same reason’s too now, obedience to what Rome accepts for the Mass. I don’t think the issue of what either one of you like should even come up, but only if there is abuse or not. You two need to stick together on this. Someone has to bend. Your vocation is to get your wife to heaven. I think as the years go by, this “happy clappy” stuff is going out the window. How many years do you plan on sticking by your wife or she by you? Do this together, but don’t put up with abuse’s. Tim

 

[agapewolf]

Reverent does not equal quiet.

It can be at times, but it does not mean the same thing. Mass is not just the crucifixion, its also the resurrection.

I LOVE masses that are full of passion and singing, and if done well, with percussion instruments. I experienced too many chant masses as a child where everyone looked like they hated being there (As well as me). I don’t like the passionate masses because its “Fun”, but becasue I actually am moved, and for many reasons.

Now, Because of that though, I can go to any mass and know that Christ still comes. Let the foks who want tridentine have it. Let the folks who want to celebrate differently (as long as obedient) have it.

Also, your implication of the “baptismal pool” in the back is something to “overlook” as if its wrong…

thats incorrect.

Even Fr. Corapi just talked about this in a talk broadcast just the other day talking about folks that complain about that. Immersion is actually a fuller sign of baptism.

 

[JimG]

200 is not a large congregation; did you mean 2,000?
Our Sunday Masses average maybe 1400 at each Mass, and there are never more than 4 EMHC’s.

 

[boppaid]

I think that you and your wife must calmly sit down and discuss this, and come to some sort of agreement. You like what you like, and she likes what she likes. One of you is going to have to compromise. The best scenario is to find a church that is “in between” yours and your wife’s likes. That way, you both compromise. Good luck, and God Bless!

I do have some questions, though, about some of your issues. I’ve never heard them stated as “not right” and I’m curious if you could explain what you don’t like about them. I listed them below? Are they just personal preference? Reminders of a bad experience?

tamborines
glass chalices
wire crucifix
huge baptismal pool at the back of the sanctuary

 

[snowfly]

My wife and I attended mass this morning at a new parish. My wife loved it. I hated it.

I felt the entire mass was a happy, clappy feel-good affair. It reminded me of my Assembly of God days. The Hosanna had tamborines and clapping, encouraged by the choir leader no less. During the Our Father, the entire congregation stretched across isles to hold hands, and when I refused, I was given a stern look. There were 8 eucharistic ministers and the priest did nothing. Granted it was a large congregation, probably about 200, but 8 EMs?

I agree with you, I never have, never will take part in hand-holding exercises at Holy Mass, I have been to prayer meetings with this going on, I just point blank respectfully say " I don’t hold hands".

Was it like that on Calvary ? IE; singing and dancing, as far as I can remember, Hosanna in the Highest was before the Crucifixion.

Well, after mass it erupted into a fight between my me and my wife. She’s irritated that I was irritated. She said that is was the most fun she’s had at mass in quite a while. I don’t think it is about fun–I want reverence. I couldn’t help but think how inappropriate the tamborines and clapping were in light of the re-presentation of Christ’s death. It isn’t a party!

No it isn’t a party, we had a few months ago drums at Mass, well I sent an email to the Parish, so far so good, no more drums.

Anyways, the argument boiled down to her going to mass there and me going to mass elsewhere. We don’t have children yet (just got married about 3 months ago), so we don’t have to worry about that issue (yet). I’m concerned about unity in the family, but going to mass together ends up more divisive.

Many couples here goto different Masses, mostly to do with baby minding, then it becomes a habit.

I know I’m part of the problem, but I can’t seem to overlook the irreverence in such a mass. I can overlook the things like glass chalices, a wire crucifix, huge baptismal pool at the back of the sanctuary, and perhaps even hand holding at the Our Father (eventually). But the music is intolerable!

I’d love to hear people’s take on this. And any advise, especially from those in similar situations, would be greatly appreciated.

Our Baptismal Font is just outside where the non-existent Altar Rails used to be.
You may be part of the problem, but you aren’t the problem.

I’ll tell you who is/are the problem, it’s from the Bishops, to the Priests with their appeasement to the masses, and the liberal laity to the liberal Clergy.

And the sheep are the ones who know the wrong that is going on, when those that have the power to do something about it, do diddly squat, sweet damn all for those that didn’t get it, apart from the few brave ones that dare to speak out.

 

[Cat]

You are not going to like my suggestion.

Sacrifice for your wife.

In his letter to the Ephesians, St. Paul says that a husband should be ready to die for his wife, as Christ died for His bride.

If that parish was truly abusive of the Holy Mass, then yes, you will have to gently lead your wife away from that Mass and toward another Mass that is correct.

But make sure that you are leaving because of true serious abuses, not because of minor “errors”, or because the Mass doesn’t fit your personal taste.

Rather than getting your information about “abuse” from an online board, go straight to your diocese and talk to your bishop (or his aide). Find out what is and isn’t allowed, and get him to document it for you from reliable Catholic writings. (He might be a “rogue” bishop who is out to wreck the Church. If so, my suggestion is that you MOVE to a diocese with an orthodox bishop–I’m very serious about this.)

But if he is an orthodox Bishop, you might discover that he really DOES have the authority to allow some of these variations in the Mass.

At any rate, do it. Call your diocese headquarters and talk to the right person. Your MARRIAGE is at stake. You think this conflict will just fix itself? It won’t. This is the beginning of a power struggle between you and your wife that will eventually become constant fighting and eventually separation and divorce and heartbreak. Stop the wreck of your marriage NOW.

I’m betting that you will discover that many of the things at that Mass are NOT abuses at all. If they are abuses, perhaps the bishop will be grateful that you brought them to his attention.

But find out the TRUTH before pulling “rank” and dragging your wife away from something that she loves and you dislike. Make darn sure that these things are truly abuses before sacrificing your marriage.

And sir, with all due respect, if you can’t stand music that your wife likes, then how will you handle it when when something really bad happens in your marriage?

Are you a man or a little boy?

What will happen when your wife gets breast cancer and they whack off her breasts and she looks like a boy? What will happen when your wife goes into post-partum depression and has to be hospitalized and you get sole care of your new baby? What will happen when you lose your job and you and your wife have to move back in with parents and live on unemployment for six months? What will happen when your kids turn out to have colic and cry non-stop for three months straight?!

You’ve only been married a short time, and you will find that over the years, many, many terrible things will happen, and you as the husband will have to make sacrifices for your wife and children, and make those sacrifices cheerfully and lovingly, not grudgingly or resentfully.

Hopefully, she will do the same for you, but YOU are the only one who answers to God for YOUR behavior. YOU serve the Lord and sacrifice whether your wife follows your example or not.

Here is a suggestion. If you discover from your bishop that this Mass was not incurring serious abuses, you should remain there, where your wife is happy.

But since this Mass is not to your personal taste, get up very early and find a Mass that IS to your personal taste, and go to THAT Mass, then come back home (with coffee and bagels), and go with your wife (and kidlets) to the Mass of her choice. And put on a happy face and never, ever let on that you don’t like her Mass of choice. Mom and Dad MUST be united in front of the children, or you will be courting parenting disaster.

My Catholic Great-Uncle, who was married for over 70 years to a Lutheran woman, did this. He attended early morning Mass on Sundays, then went home, picked up his beloved wife, and went to Lutheran services with her. Never a complaint, never a whine. They were dear people, and my Great-Uncle played a major role in my conversion from evangelical Protestantism to Catholicism. His funeral Mass was packed, BTW, with Catholics and Lutherans.

I don’t mean to sound harsh. I am not suggesting anything that my dear husband hasn’t already done. Over the years, he has sacrificed many of his personal desires, interests, and dreams for me and our daughters. Through his sacrifices, he is showing us Jesus everyday. I am extremely blessed in my good husband.

 

[KCT]

Are all the Masses at the parish like the one you describe? Do any of them have quieter music? If so, maybe you can alternate while you work our your different perspectives on celebrating Mass. —KCT

 

[sphilomena]

Suudy, I heartily sympathize with you. IMHO reverence is a priority over exuberance. Sorry, but I don’t totally agree with Cat about giving way to your wife. Marriage is a compromise at times and there must be communication, needless to say. It ain’t easy (we have been married for 42 years)! Hope you can work out a way to find a more reverent Mass, at least some of the time.

God bless!

 

[adrift]

It is not good for you to attend mass separately. I agree with you and perhaps your wife doesn’t understand that you are the head and as such your direction should be followed. You are obligated to be concerned with how your wife feels. You should recognize that she may have more reverence with this mass than you do. We are not all on the same spiritual level. You should respect that. It would help for you to engage her in conversation on why you feel the way you do. You on the other hand should try some empathy on why she feels the way she does.