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Dempsey1919
Guest
Excellent posts Cinette. There is great wisdom in your words.
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Cinette
Guest
Hi Dempsey - thank you for that but what I have been hoping was to get lots of feedback on my post #41 which is an article I found in a Catholic publication in 1998. I find it so deep, so beautiful and so true. I must have read it over 50 times.
I like the bit about the necessity of “tension”. The priest who wrote it has written many good books.
The article is awsome. I think every parent should make a copy and read it and read it and read it and share it with other parents and their children.
Pllleeeaaassseee go and read it and tell me that you see its beauty too. Please everybody!
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beckycmarie
Guest
Dear Scapularkid,
I saw this quote from Pope Benedict, and thought you might find it encouraging. I can’t help but think that for those God has allowed the heavy cross of homosexual or bisexual tendencies, that a glorious crown awaits them in heaven if they deny themselves and follow Jesus.
I saw this quote from Pope Benedict, and thought you might find it encouraging. I can’t help but think that for those God has allowed the heavy cross of homosexual or bisexual tendencies, that a glorious crown awaits them in heaven if they deny themselves and follow Jesus.
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
I have not read Father Ron’s books, but his website is really excellent and regularly publishes articles by him which are always well worth the read. The link below has an article archive:Hi Dempsey - thank you for that but what I have been hoping was to get lots of feedback on my post #41 which is an article I found in a Catholic publication in 1998. I find it so deep, so beautiful and so true. I must have read it over 50 times.
I like the bit about the necessity of “tension”. The priest who wrote it has written many good books.
The article is awsome. I think every parent should make a copy and read it and read it and read it and share it with other parents and their children.
Pllleeeaaassseee go and read it and tell me that you see its beauty too. Please everybody!
ronrolheiser.com/
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JPUSC
Guest
I don’t think there is such thing as “sexual orientation”, just male and female. It would be better if you did not label yourself “bisexual”.
It is most likely a psychological problem.
Visit these sites for more info:
couragerc.org/
catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0087.html
cathmed.org/publications/openletter.htm
It is most likely a psychological problem.
Visit these sites for more info:
couragerc.org/
catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0087.html
cathmed.org/publications/openletter.htm
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Cinette
Guest
Thank you for that Barbara Therese. I had a look and I will visit again later to take a closer look.
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KingAlfred
Guest
It’s biological, and according to the Church, disordered. But…if you abstain, you’re morally sound.
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S_J_Thaikattil
Guest
“Bisexuality in women appears to be a distinctive sexual orientation and not an experimental or transitional stage that some women adopt “on their way” to lesbianism, according to new research published by the American Psychological Association.” (Jan 2007)
Look up the topic on the Internet and as many reliable sources as possible to gain more understanding from a scientific perspective. Accept yourself as you are, as God created you, without judgment and without condemnation. Pray intensely and ask God in the depths of your heart how He would have you deal with it and live it out, without hurting yourself and without hurting another. Read different spiritual viewpoints. Speak with Christians who feel the same way you do. Seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit as you read and continue to seek answers.
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JPUSC
Guest
The previous two posters do not represent the official teaching of the Church. Yes, you should accept yourself and the life and dignity God gave you. Suicide is never the answer.
But, most solid Catholic sources suggest that there is no scientific evidence that SSA is biological and infer that there are environmental factors.
Interview With Father John Harvey of Courage
zenit.org/article-18393?l=english
CATHOLIC MEDICAL ASSOCIATION
catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0039.html
SUSAN BRINKMANN
The Catholic Standard & Times
catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0086.html
couragerc.net/
But, most solid Catholic sources suggest that there is no scientific evidence that SSA is biological and infer that there are environmental factors.
Interview With Father John Harvey of Courage
zenit.org/article-18393?l=english
Homosexuality and Hope
CATHOLIC MEDICAL ASSOCIATION
catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0039.html
Homosexuality: The Untold Story — The phantom gene
SUSAN BRINKMANN
The Catholic Standard & Times
catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0086.html
If you haven’t done so already, please contact the people at Courage, the official ministry for people with SSA endorsed by the Vatican and Pope John Paul II.
couragerc.net/
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
I think that the jury is still very much out as to the cause of SSA since science cannot agree and agree to agree with sound, reliable and agreed upon evidence for their agreement. Much of the research does tend to suggest that there are factors in SSA that are factors beyond volitional control in some way. But all in all, the jury is not yet back.
Those with heterosexual makeup who are called to celibate chastity have exactly the same struggle as those SSA.
Those who are SSA have a struggle with themselves, and the same struggle that we all engage in somewhere - only degree and nature vary. I found the journey from 15years of marriage to celibate chastity and living alone a long struggle with myself - a journey - and celibate chastity was not found overnight for sure nor the adjustment to a life alone. It is still a daily choice and decision. We have the spiritual aid of the Confessional and also to seek wise advice and support in the journey and struggle and to persevere and keep on beginning again and again if necessary with perseverance and determination.
The Lord does not expect us to achieve perfection overnight, since it is His Gift to whomsoever He may in the first place. We merely engage in the struggle to be thus gifted, and this is our call from God with His Boundless Mercy for those of us who do struggle along with more failure than success along the way…and whom I am most confident The Lord looks upon lovingly.
Barb
Those with heterosexual makeup who are called to celibate chastity have exactly the same struggle as those SSA.
Those who are SSA have a struggle with themselves, and the same struggle that we all engage in somewhere - only degree and nature vary. I found the journey from 15years of marriage to celibate chastity and living alone a long struggle with myself - a journey - and celibate chastity was not found overnight for sure nor the adjustment to a life alone. It is still a daily choice and decision. We have the spiritual aid of the Confessional and also to seek wise advice and support in the journey and struggle and to persevere and keep on beginning again and again if necessary with perseverance and determination.
The Lord does not expect us to achieve perfection overnight, since it is His Gift to whomsoever He may in the first place. We merely engage in the struggle to be thus gifted, and this is our call from God with His Boundless Mercy for those of us who do struggle along with more failure than success along the way…and whom I am most confident The Lord looks upon lovingly.
Barb
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
My computer is playing up. If I suddenly go silenthttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_118.gif computer problem is the reason.
Quoting JPUSC:
you may be referring, nor the statements to which you are objecting . I think there is pretty much agreement tht we do need to accept ourselves and our life and our dignity - and that suicide is never an option at any time for any reason and certainly definitely not, nor ever, any sort of answer for anything.
Barb
Quoting JPUSC:
Not sure to which two previous posters
you may be referring, nor the statements to which you are objecting . I think there is pretty much agreement tht we do need to accept ourselves and our life and our dignity - and that suicide is never an option at any time for any reason and certainly definitely not, nor ever, any sort of answer for anything.Barb
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JPUSC
Guest
I was referring to these posts:
Many Catholic organizations that have received Church approval support the notion that environmental factors could have played a role in the development of SSA.
The Church does not support the view of a biological basis in SSA as there is insufficient evidence. The above statements just sounded too matter-of-factly and I wanted to point out evidence that proved the contrary coming from a solid Catholic source.
Many Catholic organizations that have received Church approval support the notion that environmental factors could have played a role in the development of SSA.
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
Thank you very much for the clarification:thumbsup: As I said the jury as a proven and established fact beyond dispute, is still out and still researching. It may/could well be (not necessarily) a nature/nurture matter with factors interplaying beyond the volitional control of the ssa person - as yet there is nothing settled. Or at least to my knowledge as to cause of SSA.
No matter cause, The Church states that it SSA is a serious disordering of human sexuality and that ssa sexual acts are morally wrong. We need to be aware, however, that only mortal sin can rob a person of Grace in life and consign a soul to damnation at the time of death…and that mortal sin MUST have three clear conditions present a the one and same time…not only grave matter…to be mortal sin in the first place.
Barb
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JPUSC
Guest
Yes, the jury is still out, but I will say this…
I have many friends and relatives with SSA and from what I know about their histories and personal backgrounds, they share many similar trends.
Some of the trends I have observed are: loss of a father/mother or distant father/mother relationship, same-sex peer rejection, distrust of men (women), disinterest in team sports and/or bad eye/hand coordination. This may or may not be related, but often, many are also artistic in nature.
My studies in anthropology and sociology have reinforced the evidence provided by the Catholic sources I listed above.
Yes, it is possible there could be biological factors, but it is certainly not a “gay gene”. For example, a child with a more sensitive temperament might perceive rejection even when rejection is not intended. Temperament is the biological contributor; however, temperament alone is not enough to create a homosexual orientation. (narth.com/docs/hom101.html)
Culture also plays a big part. The images of masculinity and femininity projected by the media and society in general can play a role in a person’s gender identification. Culture defines the roles and ideas of what is masculine and feminine. For example, the notion that the color “pink” is for girls and “blue” is for boys is a cultural invention of the 1900s. If an individual doesn’t meet society’s expectation of what is masculine or what is feminine, they may face ridicule and/or develop a gender identity crisis.
I feel very strongly about this issue because of the sadness I’ve felt watching many of my friends blindly accept the “gay” lifestyle without question because society says it’s biologically normal. Even most psychiatrists have taken a side in this issue using evidence from a theory that hasn’t been proven. Often this could prove damaging. The media and those with a certain agenda has completely closed off the idea that there is another possibility. It is this way of thinking that causes persons afflicted with SSA to have so much hatred for the Catholic Church which acknowledges the disordered nature of certain sexual acts.
I have many friends and relatives with SSA and from what I know about their histories and personal backgrounds, they share many similar trends.
Some of the trends I have observed are: loss of a father/mother or distant father/mother relationship, same-sex peer rejection, distrust of men (women), disinterest in team sports and/or bad eye/hand coordination. This may or may not be related, but often, many are also artistic in nature.
My studies in anthropology and sociology have reinforced the evidence provided by the Catholic sources I listed above.
Yes, it is possible there could be biological factors, but it is certainly not a “gay gene”. For example, a child with a more sensitive temperament might perceive rejection even when rejection is not intended. Temperament is the biological contributor; however, temperament alone is not enough to create a homosexual orientation. (narth.com/docs/hom101.html)
Culture also plays a big part. The images of masculinity and femininity projected by the media and society in general can play a role in a person’s gender identification. Culture defines the roles and ideas of what is masculine and feminine. For example, the notion that the color “pink” is for girls and “blue” is for boys is a cultural invention of the 1900s. If an individual doesn’t meet society’s expectation of what is masculine or what is feminine, they may face ridicule and/or develop a gender identity crisis.
I feel very strongly about this issue because of the sadness I’ve felt watching many of my friends blindly accept the “gay” lifestyle without question because society says it’s biologically normal. Even most psychiatrists have taken a side in this issue using evidence from a theory that hasn’t been proven. Often this could prove damaging. The media and those with a certain agenda has completely closed off the idea that there is another possibility. It is this way of thinking that causes persons afflicted with SSA to have so much hatred for the Catholic Church which acknowledges the disordered nature of certain sexual acts.
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scapularkid8
Guest
…None of these apply to me.
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TommyCCR
Guest
Lifting weights is your advice? I do not mean to seem rude, but your advice was a bit harsh and unecessary. As for you, ScapularKid prayer would have to be the best thing and definetly try to spend some time with our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament (Eucharistic Adoration) I hardly think weight lifting is the answer to your problem, but you are more than welcome to do so if you feel obliged. I will pray for you dear one.
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snowpiece
Guest
If you think rationally about sexuality, you will find that homosexuality is a normal occurrence across most species. You may believe that it’s wrong, the Church may believe that it’s wrong- but these are unsubstantiated, outdated beliefs which (though it sounds harsh to say) have absolutely no basis in reality. Many Jewish and Christian faiths recognize that the Biblical statements that some interpret to be against homosexuality are, in fact, not talking about what we today construe as homosexual relationships. I would recommend the film “For the Bible Tells Me So” for more information about this.
Of course you don’t want any violence committed against gay people just for being gay. BUT, movements to take rights from gay people increase hate crimes against gays (and suspected “sympathizers” or straight people perceived to be gay). Working to create a climate wherein gays are not legally equal to straights contributes to the marginalization of gays- which means an increase in hate crimes against gays. So, while you certainly wouldn’t want them to be hurt… you’re hurting them and trying to impose your personal religious beliefs on the whole country (albeit somewhat unintentionally).
Your story was lovely. Imagine sitting down with ‘Snow’ at one of those lovely meals and telling her exactly what you think about homosexuality, ‘homosexual acts’. Tell her that she, her partner, their children, aren’t entitled to the same legal protections that you are simply because of their sexuality. If someone made the sorts of negative judgements about your relationship(s) or your children, you would probably be deeply offended- no matter how much they told you they “love you anyway”.
“I love my Catholic Church and it many Holy Priests and religious. There have been abuses but not more than other churches, schools, etc. It is just it make news when it is Catholic.”
Actually, your child is safer at a school than at a Church. Your child is also safer at home than at a Church. The sexual abuse of children in Church has been going on for many years (probably since the Church began), and of course, happens across denominational lines. The FIRST time that ANY Pope has EVER met with victims of this abuse happened in the Spring of last year. 2008! That’s not what I’d call “practicing what you preach”, and as we all know-- morality begins at home. Until the Church takes FULL responsibility for clergy sexual abuse and especially the cover-ups of said abuse (which are ongoing), I don’t take It too seriously (especially in matters of sexual ethics). These topics are somewhat connected, as currently, Pope Benedict is trying to make homosexuals in the priesthood a scapegoat for these scandals.
Of course you don’t want any violence committed against gay people just for being gay. BUT, movements to take rights from gay people increase hate crimes against gays (and suspected “sympathizers” or straight people perceived to be gay). Working to create a climate wherein gays are not legally equal to straights contributes to the marginalization of gays- which means an increase in hate crimes against gays. So, while you certainly wouldn’t want them to be hurt… you’re hurting them and trying to impose your personal religious beliefs on the whole country (albeit somewhat unintentionally).
Your story was lovely. Imagine sitting down with ‘Snow’ at one of those lovely meals and telling her exactly what you think about homosexuality, ‘homosexual acts’. Tell her that she, her partner, their children, aren’t entitled to the same legal protections that you are simply because of their sexuality. If someone made the sorts of negative judgements about your relationship(s) or your children, you would probably be deeply offended- no matter how much they told you they “love you anyway”.
“I love my Catholic Church and it many Holy Priests and religious. There have been abuses but not more than other churches, schools, etc. It is just it make news when it is Catholic.”
Actually, your child is safer at a school than at a Church. Your child is also safer at home than at a Church. The sexual abuse of children in Church has been going on for many years (probably since the Church began), and of course, happens across denominational lines. The FIRST time that ANY Pope has EVER met with victims of this abuse happened in the Spring of last year. 2008! That’s not what I’d call “practicing what you preach”, and as we all know-- morality begins at home. Until the Church takes FULL responsibility for clergy sexual abuse and especially the cover-ups of said abuse (which are ongoing), I don’t take It too seriously (especially in matters of sexual ethics). These topics are somewhat connected, as currently, Pope Benedict is trying to make homosexuals in the priesthood a scapegoat for these scandals.
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snowpiece
Guest
“As a heterosexual woman, my sexuality does not give me any right to pursue a sexual relationship outside of marriage. The same is true for homosexuals and bisexuals.”
I’m sorry, I think you may be confusing the term “bisexual” with “bigamist.”
"What rights are you referring to? "
I’m referring to anti-gay legislation which bans suspected homosexuals and suspected ‘sympathizers’ from legal protections, government institutions, employment, etc.
“There are sects that have split with the Church anytime there is a rule not to their liking. These rules were not invented by the Church, they come from God Himself. To call what the Church teaches “hate & bigotry” is hateful and bigoted on your part.”
If what the Church teaches is hateful &/or bigoted, what I’m saying is accurate. Even the most devout Catholics understand that the Church (as an institution run by humans) is fallible. When interracial marriage (also called miscegenation) was illegal in the United States, many people used religious teachings to justify this discrimination, stating that God put the races on different continents so that they would not mix & marry. I’m sure you wouldn’t call that an egalitarian view. The Bible has also been misused to deny rights (such as enfranchisement) to women. These things don’t come from God Itself-- and to say they do is to blaspheme.
I’m sorry, I think you may be confusing the term “bisexual” with “bigamist.”
"What rights are you referring to? "
I’m referring to anti-gay legislation which bans suspected homosexuals and suspected ‘sympathizers’ from legal protections, government institutions, employment, etc.
“There are sects that have split with the Church anytime there is a rule not to their liking. These rules were not invented by the Church, they come from God Himself. To call what the Church teaches “hate & bigotry” is hateful and bigoted on your part.”
If what the Church teaches is hateful &/or bigoted, what I’m saying is accurate. Even the most devout Catholics understand that the Church (as an institution run by humans) is fallible. When interracial marriage (also called miscegenation) was illegal in the United States, many people used religious teachings to justify this discrimination, stating that God put the races on different continents so that they would not mix & marry. I’m sure you wouldn’t call that an egalitarian view. The Bible has also been misused to deny rights (such as enfranchisement) to women. These things don’t come from God Itself-- and to say they do is to blaspheme.
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snowpiece
Guest
" I must admit, however, being heterosexual, I really have no idea at all if homsexual and bisexual orientation people experience their sexuality as I do in a general sense …certainly I do not experience my heterosexuality as uncontrollable, dominated by sexual thoughts of the opposite sex. Sometimes reading posts by other orientations other than heterosexual, it seems to be as if some of them must surely experience some sort of burning sexual desire beyond their volition, which they find uncontrollable. If this is the case, they are really in need of therapy and counselling … and no matter orientation. A heterosexual person with such driving uncontrollable sexuality would need therapy and counselling."
Pretty much everyone, regardless of orientation, experiences their sexuality in the same way. Thinking that lgbt people are hypersexual or cannot control their sexual impulses is a myth. When people say they “cannot control their sexuality” what they’re saying is that they cannot choose what their sexuality is, just as you did not choose or control being heterosexual. Lgbt relationships are pretty much the same as heterosexual relationships.
“I dont think that The Gospel, nor the Church, are asking the impossible.”
The Church alleges that one’s sexuality can be changed. This is asking the impossible. Ask the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association, etc-- it’s impossible. Moreover, people who identify themselves as chaste homosexuals face difficulty when participating in Church life. So, even if you try to change that hard-wired sexuality, and remain chaste, you still won’t be allowed to pursue a vocation in the Church. Regardless of all of these things- it’s still important to ask WHY the Church is so against homosexuality. There’s little to nothing in the Bible about homosexuality, and the vague references which can be found are not about what we consider today to be homosexuality. The Church is very against homosexuality and homosexuals… but the Church does not provide any valid reasoning for this view. When it comes to viewing someone as less-than or as sinful for something that they cannot control-- a whole lot of valid reasoning is needed. Currently, the Church is doing the equivalent of punishing a whole group of people simply for being born with blue eyes or brown skin, etc. Whether you call that religion or not, it’s unjustifiable behavior.
Pretty much everyone, regardless of orientation, experiences their sexuality in the same way. Thinking that lgbt people are hypersexual or cannot control their sexual impulses is a myth. When people say they “cannot control their sexuality” what they’re saying is that they cannot choose what their sexuality is, just as you did not choose or control being heterosexual. Lgbt relationships are pretty much the same as heterosexual relationships.
“I dont think that The Gospel, nor the Church, are asking the impossible.”
The Church alleges that one’s sexuality can be changed. This is asking the impossible. Ask the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association, etc-- it’s impossible. Moreover, people who identify themselves as chaste homosexuals face difficulty when participating in Church life. So, even if you try to change that hard-wired sexuality, and remain chaste, you still won’t be allowed to pursue a vocation in the Church. Regardless of all of these things- it’s still important to ask WHY the Church is so against homosexuality. There’s little to nothing in the Bible about homosexuality, and the vague references which can be found are not about what we consider today to be homosexuality. The Church is very against homosexuality and homosexuals… but the Church does not provide any valid reasoning for this view. When it comes to viewing someone as less-than or as sinful for something that they cannot control-- a whole lot of valid reasoning is needed. Currently, the Church is doing the equivalent of punishing a whole group of people simply for being born with blue eyes or brown skin, etc. Whether you call that religion or not, it’s unjustifiable behavior.
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chromatica
Guest
scapularkid8, i am the same. God created us to love everyone. why? who knows, but it’s ok! but that doesn’t mean we should lust after everyone.
it is not a condition, like something that can be treated.
it is who you are. there is no reason to think that you are broken. just, be with God and marvel at all the He has given you to love.stay monogamous…with the opposite sex…don’t let the extra capacity for love that God has given you take you from Him
all is for Him, not for us.be happy
God bless.
c
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