I'm calling on everyone here in this forum EXCEPT Catholics !!!

[graceandglory]

GAB:

GAB: I think you need to be more honest about your real agenda. Oh yeah, and stop using these boards to plug your upcoming anticatholic, anticatholic church publications !!!

**RA: **Well, if you read the threads carefully, you will see that my comments about my books/materials are not as offensive as you are trying to make it sound.

R.A.

It’s true. RA is a good author, and I agree with just about everything he’s ever written. 'Cept this thread, of course. But even here, mostly we agree. Even when I was protestant, I was a better Catholic than most Catholics I knew.

It sounds as if he’s coming here to connect with real Catholics who know their faith. That’s good.

I wonder though, what it would cost RA and other well-known evangelicals, in terms of money, fame (respect), and power, (influence) if they actually took an honest look at the true Catholic Church. What if instead of believing what they think is the Catholic Church, they actually look at the True Church?

Because RA, you are not so far off from the True Church in all of your beliefs. Every single doctrine in the Catholic Church is founded in Scripture. It does take an intellectual some time to search it out, though.

As for Mary, she is the Ark of the New Covenant. If you study the Ark of the Covenant, you will realize that she was a holy vessel chosen by God to be the Christ bearer. Any esteem we have for the Old Testament Ark of the Covenant can transfer over to Mary.

As for talking to dead people:
Find out first that the Catholic Church forbids necromancy. The Saints are those who are already in Heaven. We believe in everlasting life. Saints are not dead, they are alive in Christ. They are the crowd of witnesses that surround us. Their prayers for us are like incense at the throne of God. What else would they be praying for? The Bible and Old Testament Tradition knew there was a difference between necromancy and asking those who have gone before us for prayer. The Book of Maccabees is a history book, and references the ancient Jewish tradition of asking for prayer from those who have died. Ancient Jews knew the difference between that and necromancy.

Your great concern about the practice of witchcraft and occult is very important. It’s hugely important. Why does it seem more important than lying or fornication or cursing, though? I think it’s because Scriptures tell us that there are sins that lead to death. The occult is one of those. Playing with the occult is a mortal sin. Says so in the Bible.

grace

 

[Ag_not]

Ag_not,

I don’t know if you remember me, but I responded in one of your early “Weirdsville” threads. I just wanted you to know that I now search for your new user name. The threads you’ve started, or been a part of, are always lively and informative. Thank you, from a shy lurker.

Mariyka Hi :hug3:

This is an awesome place, filled with awesome people like you, seeking the truth and supporting others on their way. Thank you

 

[Ag_not]

I apologize for some of GAB’s attitude. We are forbidden, by our Church and TOS here, from attacking anyone else, or their opinion. And we are not trying to convert, but to addresss the disagreements, basically correct misunderstandings, which Are always the poblem

everyone owes GAB an apology RA quoted me but wrongly attributed to her. So the culprits me Im afraid. Again.

 

[Sailka]

I know Richard answered this but I also want to say that I don’t think this is a fair characterization of him. Having read his book on Mormonism “One Nation Under Gods” (I recommend it) and recognizing the research required I gather he probably does know quite a bit about Catholicism and so I understand if he’s not on here to learn more about it.

I don’t get the impression he’s on here proselytizing. I also don’t see any forum rule against it anyway. There is a rule about single mindedly promoting an agenda, and I don’t see that either. And even if he was trying to proselytize, fine. As I’m sure you know, Catholicism can stand up to scrutiny, that’s one of the reasons I converted. I hope and pray more Protestants come on these boards even if they are trying to proselytize.

I have no idea who Fred Phelps is.

Again, whatever motives a Protestant may have for coming on this board (and I don’t doubt Richard’s motives he elucidates above) I’m just glad they’re here. Because whatever their motives, there’s always hope. The Church has had the likes of John Henry Cardinal Newman, G.K. Chesterton, Judge Robert Bork, Mortimer J. Adler, and Francis Beckwith enter (to think of some converts off the top of my head–Anne Rice would be another one), so again, there’s always hope and grace.

Perhaps you haven’t heard: No one can convert another. Only the Holy Spirit can.

And this site is not for us to convert others, or bash them. This site only to Live Our Faith by respectfully corect misunderstandings. Read any definitive unbiased book or article on Apologetics.

And “Judge ye Not, lest Ye be judged…”. And treat others as you would want to be treated. Too many of us are I, I, Me, I. Its what Our Lord wants, Not what you or I want.

 

[Ag_not]

It sounds as if he’s coming here to connect with real Catholics who know their faith. That’s good.

What - by publicly stating that The RCC is full of witches, black magick followers, pagans, occultists – all in good standing.

That doesnt sound to me like someone wanting to connect - that sounds like someone comming with a loudhailer screaming run run everyone !!!

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Brennan,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Just know that I DO NOT view RC as I view other clearly non-Christian groups such as Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. etc. etc. If some other issues in the RCC could be fixed, I could easily look past the grace vs. works thing because it is VERY close (as I have said) to how various Protestant Arminians see salvation (I disagree with them as much as with you).

Other problems:

1. Confession
2. Mariology
3. Prayers to the dead (I always scratch my head, why would you do that when you can go to God himself, yes I already know the answer, but it makes no sense to me when I have access to the very thrown room of God myself).
4. the witchcraft/black magick/occultism in the church that is tolerated.
5. The power politics that shielded those HORRIFIC child-abusing priests

Hmm, that’s all for now.

RA

Hi Richard, I also view the Catholic Church as different from those groups you mentioned, and from Protestant denominations too!

I’ll now take care of all the objections you mentioned in this single post.

On the grace vs. works issue I consider the teaching of the Church on grace as elucidated in the Council of Orange (an excerpt of which I posted earlier) to be glorious. It seems to give the credit to God for initiating and inspiring and enabling anything we do, and even affecting our will, yet it still leaves our free will intact because we can resist His grace.

Regarding confession to me of course the big question is whether or not it was instituted by Christ.

I think Mark Shea who has been mentioned earlier is coming out with a book on Mary. He’s a good writer and coming from an evangelical background he understands the objections.

One thing I have learned about prayers to the dead is that it seems to have even been practiced by orthodox Judaism prior to the time of Christ. And one of the earliest inscriptions on a Christian tomb (I think it was a bishop) asks anyone who sees the gravestone to pray for him.

I ask for the prayers of the Saints for the same reasons I ask other Christians on earth to pray for me.

And yes, one can go directly to God. I think it is a recognition that “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much” and that I myself am not all that righteous and there are others in the Kingdom who are more righteous than I.

Yet the entire purpose of things like Mystical Theology, contemplative prayer, and even monastic orders, is to become as united to God as is possible in this life. Even the purpose of devotion to Mary is, as they said in the Middle Ages, “ad Jesum per Mariam” (to Jesus through Mary). A good mother helps her children to draw closer to Christ.

Regarding the occult, I look forward to your writing on it. Naturally if the Church officially taught that it was okay, I would leave. Same with the sex abuse scandals. Your assertion that more should be done to curb occult practices I’m sure many Catholics would agree with.

I also can say that in our part of the world I would like to see far better catechesis, better liturgy and music, and the bishops and priests doing more to stop the scandal of Catholics in the U.S. flagrantly disobeying the Church in matters of contraception, abortion, fornication, divorce and remarriage, etc. Each hemisphere seems to have its own set of problems.

Regarding the politics and power play, though, I am reminded of Jesus’ own disciples arguing about who would be the greatest, or trying to set themselves up at the right hand of His throne, along with things like the denial of Peter. That’s not to excuse anything. As the verse says, it is time for judgment to begin at the house of God. And it’s always a well deserved judgment.

 

[Sailka]

Actually, I think Rightlydivide’s point was that he is thankful that an agnostic has decided to become a Christian of any stripe, and is not going to quibble over which Church she has been drawn to. I found it the most supportive and charitable post from a non-Catholic on this thread.

Thank You! I may have misunderstood Post 16! Am new to this Thread. :bowdown: :tiphat: Was early 2007

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I apologize for some of GAB’s attitude. We are forbidden, by our Church and TOS here, from attacking anyone else, or their opinion. And we are not trying to convert, but to addresss the disagreements, basically correct misunderstandings, which Are always the poblem

I’m always hoping to convert anyone and everyone…

 

[graceandglory]

Catholics in good standings, and whole Catholic communities are suddenly not part of the real church – although they certainly look, act, talk, walk, and receive the apparent sanction of the church. Priest are under the authority of Rome and can be defrocked. RC are under the authority of Rome and can be excommunicated. Neither is done. The RCC is full of witches, black magick followers, pagans, occultists – all in good standing. I’ll have more to say about this in print over the next year.

RA

Richard, I have just been to your website, and have taken a look at your list of books. Well done! I now appreciate more where you are coming from. I share your concerns about children’s literature. I’m a teacher. I just conferenced with parents of public school children this week about the importance of reading good quality children’s literature, and not garbage. I have a low tolerance for the occult. I am in agreement with you on all your titles. So, we’re on the same side there.

I think your concern is a valid one. The answer to it will be about which “branch” of hierarchical leadership is in charge of “excommunications.” What is required for that to happen, what is necessary for a priest to be defrocked, etc.

I look at the priesthood like I look at vows for marriage. Just because someone is a bad spouse, the church doesn’t require anyone to get divorced. There is scripture in the OT where God divorced Israel due to her harlotry. Of course in the New Testament, God in Christ is married to the Church. The Church is the Bride of Christ. Is the dwelling place not the New Jerusalem, then?

I think you should start a thread in here about your concerns of witchcraft and the occult in the church. A month or so ago, I was responding in a thread in these forums with someone who was involved in the occult. I told the poster in no uncertain terms that she needed to quit it. The thread got yucky, and ended up getting yanked.

 

[steve_b]

Just two examples of church rules that I don’t believe in…

As for the history of the Bible,** I have a site that may be more neutral **than a book written in 1911 by a Catholic priest (his introduction title: “That we need some other rule besides the Word of God.” says it all for me).

allaboutthejourney.org/history-of-the-bible.htm

That site isn’t neutral. I’ll quote from the opening remarks (emphasis mine]

:
History of the Bible

The history of the Bible starts with a phenomenal account of history! It’s not one book like I always thought – It’s an ancient collection of writings, comprised of 66 separate books,

The bible contains 73 books.

 

[emeraldcoast]

It’s true. RA is a good author, and I agree with just about everything he’s ever written. 'Cept this thread, of course. But even here, mostly we agree.
grace

Hey Grace,

I have really enjoyed RA’s contribution to this post as well. I am currently reading his book A New Earth, An Old Deception: Awakening to the Dangers of Eckhart Tolle’s #1 Bestseller . It is a great book and I look forward to reading more from him on this site and reading future professional work.

God Bless!

 

[steve_b]

**Steve: **Notice calling Jesus Lord won’t save. . . .

RA: I never said it did. Classic, absolutely Classic perversion of salvation by grace alone through faith alone doctrine. Now, I know why we have wars. Sigh. There will never be peace.

RA

Taking your points 1 by 1

1. 
   *]There is NO scriptural teacing for faith alone. That was invented in the 16th century by Luther. He admitted to adding “sola” to faith. AND he admitted it was NOT in scripture.
   *]We have wars because people who dissent/divide from the truth don’t serve Our Lord Jesus Christ but their own appetites. [Rm 16:18]
   *]As far as never being peace, people who divide from the truth as Paul warns, have a HUGE concern. Just look at what happens to dissenters/dividers. Multiple warnings seem to have no effect on some. [Gal 5:20-21]

 

[graceandglory]

Hey Grace,

I have really enjoyed RA’s contribution to this post as well. I am currently reading his book A New Earth, An Old Deception: Awakening to the Dangers of Eckhart Tolle’s #1 Bestseller . It is a great book and I look forward to reading more from him on this site and reading future professional work.

God Bless!

you know what they say,
***“once Catholic, always Catholic.” ***
I wouldn’t have believed it myself if I didn’t come swimming back!


I know I would have been totally offended by my comment here, about 5 or 6 yrs ago.

 

[Sailka]

I’m always hoping to convert anyone and everyone…

we can only try to help the Holy Spirit convert people. We can’t.:bowdown2:

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

we can only try to help the Holy Spirit convert people. We can’t.:bowdown2:

I agree completely. Of course. It is God’s grace first, foremost, and last.

 

[cyberjacques]

1. Intercession: While it is clear that the Church Triumphant prays for us, the Church Militant, in a general way, it is unclear whether or not they hear, or even need, our prayers.

The Church Triumphant doesn’t need our prayers. It’s the Church Suffering that needs our prayers, and of course the Church Militant needs all the prayers it can get. The Church Suffering are those people in purgatory, and we pray for them and ask the Church Triumphant to do the same.

As for them hearing our prayers, the Bible says that in the presence of God, we will know even as we are known. We are known by God completely. So is it really unreasonable to believe that those in His presence will know when someone is praying?

As a side thought, I find it strange that even among Christians who don’t believe in intercessory prayer, the expression that our departed loved ones are “watching over us” from heaven is rather common. Do they really believe this, or are they just saying it because it sounds nice? And if they do believe it, do they think people watching us from heaven have video but no audio? Just something to think about.

 

[Sailka]

Taking your points 1 by 1

1. • There is NO scriptural teacing for faith alone. That was invented in the 16th century by Luther. He admitted to adding “sola” to faith. AND he admitted it was NOT in scripture.
   • We have wars because people who dissent/divide from the truth don’t serve Our Lord Jesus Christ but their own appetites. [Rm 16:18]
   • As far as never being peace, people who divide from the truth as Paul warns, have a HUGE concern. Just look at what happens to dissenters/dividers. Multiple warnings seem to have no effect on some. [Gal 5:20-21]

1. 
   :yeah_me: A Key point, only recently discovered And documented: All wars are by Politicians, seculars using Religion, for power, control, greed, property, vanity, contrary to Religious teachings. That was very true of the Crusades, None of which were by The Church, although the Pope Then called for the recapture of the Holy Land. And Bin Laden using Terrorism, Contrary to the Koran, Islam, etc. :crying: Wars, like WW II were by atheists.
   
   Senator George Mitchell, on negotiating an end to the century old Irish Rebellion, stated that it was not a religious war, but for political control.
   
   A major, little noticed book was published explaining that 3 years ago: *Us and Them, *Understanding Your Tribal Mind, David Berreby, Little Brown and Company, 2005.

 

[Sailka]

Speaking for myself as a Lutheran, I have only 2 disagreements:

1. Intercession: While it is clear that the Church Triumphant prays for us, the Church Militant, in a general way, it is unclear whether or not they hear, or even need, our prayers.

Jon

We don’t pray For the Church Triumphant, we only ask Them to pray for the Church Militant members. And we only pray for deceased In Purgatory, to shorten their purging, cleansing. Nothing stained, impure, dirty enters Heaven to be With the Lord.
My Mom was Lutheran. And we are so close that Martin Luther, who we respect, would have no reason to leave the Church, basically, as my ELCA friends say.

 

[Sailka]

The gospel of God’s grace revealed in the Scripture alone is a different gospel than what is official taught by Catholic authority. This is the reason for the Protestant Reformation. We have two mutually exclusive gospels. We both

[SIGN]cannot be right. The place to find the biblical gospel and the biblical Jesus is through prayer and diligently studying the Scriptures for yourself. I don’t think you will find the truth by spending time on Protestant or Catholic forum sites. It is only by the Holy Spirit through the Scriptures you will be able to know the truth.[/SIGN]

 

[jen_fla]

Gabriel,

My dear friend, I could write a book in refutation of your response. But, unfortunately, I just don’t have the time.

And to try to even begin addressing your first ***set ***of errors would require so much space and history and scripture, that I just couldn’t do it justice in a limited forum. Perhaps one day I’ll do a full book on the RCC and pick up where we’ve left off here. If that day ever comes, I’ll be sure to drop you a line.

I’ll leave you with this – my faith starts and ends with Jesus and the scriptures (written pre-100 a.d.). Your RCC didn’t even exist at that date. Sorry, but that’s just true history – instead of RCC legends/myths. The RCC you know and love didn’t come into existence until much later, after power, greed, and corruption took over the seat of Rome post-Constantine.

Thank God the Reformation came along to try and return the church to some semblance of what it had been – sadly, the seat of politically power never relinquished it’s hold on the people, nor did it retract its claims as the representative of Jesus on earth.

Clearly, there remains deep division between Roman Catholics and Protestants. I thank God no one is burning anyone any more, and there are no Inquisitions from which to flee. I can say peace to you and mean it.

peace,

RA

the Catholic Church and the Orthodox churches are the only churches that can claim apostolic succession.

if you truly believe the Catholic Church is not the church that Christ founded and that corruption occurred in the time post constantine, then how come you are not orthodox? are they corrupt too?

would you say the Greek or Coptic Orthodox churches are wrong for having the Sacraments as well?

have you read Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating? excellent material to help you with your books.

also just to note, we call Christ’s Church the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church not the Roman Catholic Church. Roman Catholicism refers to the latin or roman rite. there are other rites so to call the Church Roman would be a bit of an insult to the other rites. the Roman rite is the most common and of course the diocese of rome is central to Catholicism, but it is incorrect to call her the Roman Catholic Church as a whole.

this might help clear up the confusion a bit:

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb3.htm