I'm calling on everyone here in this forum EXCEPT Catholics !!!

[sandusky]

steve b:

Ask yourself, will each of these scenerios result in the soul going to hell? It’s for sure they aren’t going with a straight shot to heaven.

I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter.
Mt 12:36

2 Cor. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

1 Peter 1:15-1715 but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.

Revelation 20:12-13 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.

12: Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – 13: each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14: If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15: If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer [zēmioō Greek, will be punished] loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. [1 Cor 3:…]

1: "Behold, I send my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts. 2: But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap; 3: he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.[Malachi 3:…]

Remember Peter saying Jesus went to preach to the souls in prison immediately after His death? He preached to Those who had been disobedient since the time of Noah? Well, this wasn’t heaven because heaven isn’t prison, and it’s not hell, because the damned have no hope so there is no need to preach to them. They’ll be in hell for eternity. This is a 3rd place. A place they can get out of…eventually. But a prison just the same.

Mt. 5:22-26 22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Why? Because

nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life [Rev 21:27]

They need a scrubbing first.

These are just a few passages showing that
• punishment will happen for many after death, and NOT necessarily in hell.
• purification definitely happens, because very few are perfect at death
Purgatory is real.

**John 5:24

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.**There’s no judgment of any kind for the believer (cf Rom 8:1).

Furthermore, the position of God concerning sin in the New Covenant is that He will not remember the believer’s sin:**Jeremiah 31:31, 34

“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,…I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”**What your leadership has done in drafting this notion of purgatory, is negate God’s promise not to remember sin—they don’t have the authority to do that.
steve b:

IOW, Good works are essential. Just see what happens If you ignore them

As I said, I can’t ignore them, and, my works are not my salvation, but my God, and His grace.
steve b:

You said, "Jesus didn’t come to make us a good person. "

How would you answer Jesus when He said

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Mt. 5:48),

Were I to have been there when He said that, I would’ve wept at the impossibility of keeping His command, and beat my breast, pleading, "Lord have mercy on me, the sinner."

 

[graceandglory]

I know the history of the word, and am certain that its three uses in the NT mean heaven.

By your response, I can tell you haven’t looked it up.

When you say you “know” the history of the word, you are going by what you have always thought it to be meant, whether that is right or wrong.

This is where a little bit of understanding in language study comes in handy.

For every word and concept there are basically two meanings:
**

1. The connotative meaning: ** What the word means to each person, what a person “thinks” it means, whether they ever looked it up or not. It’s like figuring out the meaning of a word in the context of a sentence.

**2. The denotative meaning: **What the word actually means.

I’m telling you, I discovered the Catholic Church through my deep study and love of Scripture. I love my Strong’s concordance.

According to Strongs, if you ever bothered to look up words you didn’t know the actual meaning of but just assumed you knew:

PARADISE:

1. among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters

1. a garden, pleasure ground

a) grove, park

1. the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise

1. the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world

1. heaven

We know as Christians that Christ did not ascend to heaven yet, so the fifth meaning of the Biblical word Paradise, can not be heaven. Which makes the most sense?

These are things a bible studying protestant could figure out on their own.

 

[sandusky]

graceandglory:

By your response, I can tell you haven’t looked it up.

Omniscient, you’re not.
graceanglory:

When you say you “know” the history of the word, you are going by what you have always thought it to be meant, whether that is right or wrong.

This is where a little bit of understanding in language study comes in handy.

For every word and concept there are basically two meanings:

1. The connotative meaning: What the word means to each person, what a person “thinks” it means, whether they ever looked it up or not. It’s like figuring out the meaning of a word in the context of a sentence.
2. The denotative meaning: What the word actually means.

Thank you for the refresher.

graceandglory:

I love my Strong’s concordance.

According to Strongs, if you ever bothered to look up words you didn’t know the actual meaning of but just assumed you knew:

Strong’s is very good; however, it’s no longer my lexicon of choice.

graceandglory:

We know as Christians that Christ did not ascend to heaven yet, so the fifth meaning of the Biblical word Paradise, can not be heaven. Which makes the most sense?

Heaven—the one you most dislike—makes the most sense.

ISTM that here in the West, Catholic apologists have softened the older explanations and descriptions of purgatory.

Traditionally, purgatory is not a nice place, but a place of intense pain and suffering.

In an effort to keep abreast of the continuously morphing theology and apologetics of the CC, I occasionally go the bookstore at the San Fernando Mission, which is near my home.

On a visit there a few years ago, I picked up a book on purgatory, Charity for the Suffering Souls, an Explanation of the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory, by the Rev. John A. Nageleisen (Missionary Priest of the Congregation of the Most Precious Blood); Tan Books and Publishers, Inc. Rockford, ILL, 1982. The book has the Imprimatur of Joseph Rademacher, Bishop of Fort Wayne, February 2, 1895.

It paints a frightening picture of purgatory.

Christ promised the thief paradise, not purgatory, as there’s no such place as purgatory.

 

[graceandglory]

On a visit there a few years ago, I picked up a book on purgatory, Charity for the Suffering Souls, an Explanation of the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory, by the Rev. John A. Nageleisen (Missionary Priest of the Congregation of the Most Precious Blood); Tan Books and Publishers, Inc. Rockford, ILL, 1982. The book has the Imprimatur of Joseph Rademacher, Bishop of Fort Wayne, February 2, 1895.

It paints a frightening picture of purgatory…

Thanks for the book recommendation. I’ll check it out.


Everyone needs a wake up call.

Luke 12:47-48 - “when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live.”

 

[Richard_Abanes]

Grace: Everyone needs a wake up call.

RA: Yes, a wake up call to the false teaching of purgatory. Dang. But it sure makes for a great doctrine to hang over people’s heads to keep them in line. It worked in the Middle Ages – and it still works. Ugh, it’s so offensive and a slap in teh face of Jesus Christ, IMHO.

RA

 

[graceandglory]

Grace: Everyone needs a wake up call.

RA: Yes, a wake up call to the false teaching of purgatory. Dang. But it sure makes for a great doctrine to hang over people’s heads to keep them in line. It worked in the Middle Ages – and it still works. Ugh, it’s so offensive and a slap in teh face of Jesus Christ, IMHO.

RA

I’m sorry you feel that way.
It’s not meant to hang over anyone’s head.
It doesn’t take away from anyone’s blessed hope of everlasting life and eternal bliss with God. It really doesn’t matter how we feel about it.

The doctrine of Purgatory is supported in Scriptures and through Judeo-Christian history all the way back to times before Christ. Calling it a “false” doctrine doesn’t make it so.

Who is your Authority? Don’t you see a need for a final court of arbitration when two intelligent and well-meaning individuals who love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, and read the scriptures faithfully can have different interpretations?

 

[Ag_not]

Personally, it is a huge relief to me that purgatory exists. In the near future I can be forgiven by Christ through his royal priesthood for my sins. But I can NEVER make up for the sins I have committed on this earth to date. Knowing the temporal punishments I am due can be worked out in the forge is actually a massive comfort. Not a weight hanging over my head. I know I’m not going to heaven straight away already. I’m just going to commit the rest of my life in the church trying to make sure I don’t go to hell.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

grace: The doctrine of Purgatory is supported in Scriptures and through Judeo-Christian history all the way back to times before Christ. Calling it a “false” doctrine doesn’t make it so.

RA: Might I retort: “The doctrine of Purgatory is not supported in Scriptures or through Judeo-Christian history. Calling it a ‘true’ doctrine doesn’t make it so.” Sorry.

AG: Knowing the temporal punishments I am due can be worked out in the forge is actually a massive comfort.

RA: Here’s a better comfort – it was already worked out by Christ on the cross. And that’s biblical.

For the life of me, I CANNOT understand why people refuse to simply accept a gift from God, but always want make sure they either: a) add something to getting themselves saved; or b) suffer somehow for what they’ve done to make sure they’ve been punished enough to get right with God.

News Flash: Neither is possible. That’s why Jesus, as God in the flesh, had to do it all for you/us. now THAT is the Good News.

R.A. sigh…

 

[Richard_Abanes]

**AG: **I can be forgiven by Christ through his royal priesthood for my sins.

**RA: **Dude, the Bible says it’s YOUR Royal Priesthood (1 Peter 2:9).

RA

 

[sandusky]

Personally, it is a huge relief to me that purgatory exists. In the near future I can be forgiven by Christ through his royal priesthood for my sins. But I can NEVER make up for the sins I have committed on this earth to date. Knowing the temporal punishments I am due can be worked out in the forge is actually a massive comfort. Not a weight hanging over my head. I know I’m not going to heaven straight away already. I’m just going to commit the rest of my life in the church trying to make sure I don’t go to hell.

Purgatory is a HUGE SELLING POINT, I grant that; however, let the buyer beware.

I wish you well in your work to stay out of hell by a committment to the Church; that said, I urge you as well to look harder at Christ and what He’s done, as that’s the committment that places one into His body—the Church.

 

[steve_b]

John 5:24**“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word**, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
There’s no judgment of any kind for the believer (cf Rom 8:1).

You love those summary statements. And you create your own summary of the summary devoid of context. Continuing on with the passage you quote

25* "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, 27 and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29* and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. [Jn 5:25…]

What you DO…determines the judgement. The one who does the judging, is telling us how it will be.

sand:

Furthermore, the position of God concerning sin in the New Covenant is that He will not remember the believer’s sin:Jeremiah 31:31, 34**“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,…I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more**.”What your leadership has done in drafting this notion of purgatory, is negate God’s promise not to remember sin—they don’t have the authority to do that.

You haven’t addressed a single point that was given. You avoid the issues, and you just cling to talking points and summary passages ignoring contexts. It’s time you address the points given

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4360493&postcount=517

sand:

Were I to have been there when He said that, I would’ve wept at the impossibility of keeping His command, and beat my breast, pleading, "Lord have mercy on me, the sinner."

You’re not dealing with the passages given you.

 

[Ag_not]

**AG: **I can be forgiven by Christ through his royal priesthood for my sins.

**RA: **Dude, the Bible says it’s YOUR Royal Priesthood (1 Peter 2:9).

RA

Dude - I am not forgiven my sins until my priest absolves me.

Whatever you bind on earth… whatever you lose on earth.,

My sins need to be forgiven by a Catholic Priest. I will only THEN have my sins absolved. But the temporal punishment remains.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

Sand: look harder at Christ and what He’s done, as that’s the committment that places one into His body—the Church.

RA: Is anyone else seeing that perhaps what this all really boils down to is: “WHAT IS THE CHURCH?”

It seems that it is here that the rubber meets the road because anytime there has been a disagreement here, it seems the RCs say,

“But THE CHURCH SAYS…”
“That’s not right because THE CHURCH SAYS…”
“Such an view cannot be so since THE CHURCH SAYS…”

So, it seems, the real issue that perhaps should ONLY be discussed is: “WHAT IS THE CHURCH?”

I say this because if the corporate/monolithic institution of the so-called ONE TRUE CHURCH – the RCC – isn’t really “THE CHURCH” as is believed by faithful RCs, then that pretty much undermines all of the rest of the stuff, and leaves people with the Bible alone.

R.A.

 

[Ag_not]

For the life of me, I CANNOT understand why …

maybe, just maybe, that’s because you’re in error, despite what you think and say and do

You’re right - 1 billion catholics, thousands of priests, hundreds of bishops and cardinals, and a pope, are all wrong

I don’t think so.

 

[ncgolf]

Grace: But it sure makes for a great doctrine to hang over people’s heads to keep them in line. It worked in the Middle Ages – and it still works. Ugh, it’s so offensive and a slap in teh face of Jesus Christ, IMHO.

RA

Explain please … How specifically does the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory hang over someone’s head? Why is it so offensive to Christ, if possible use Scripture.

You can have an opinion, IMHO … just looking for the reasons for an opinion or they are just rants.

 

[sandusky]

You love those summary statements. And you create your own summary of the summary devoid of context. Continuing on with the passage you quote

25* "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, 27 and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29* and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. [Jn 5:25…]

What you DO…determines the judgement. The one who does the judging, is telling us how it will be.

You haven’t addressed a single point that was given. You avoid the issues, and you just cling to talking points and summary passages ignoring contexts. It’s time you address the points given

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4360493&postcount=517

You’re not dealing with the passages given you.

What else can I say, Pal?

There’s no such place called purgatory; you don’t prove the existence of purgatory by simply plopping some verses onto a page, sans any explanation.

Christ has removed the issue of sin and punishment for those who believe—all of it (Col 2:13ff).

That’s good news—read the scripture.

 

[Ag_not]

I say this because if the corporate/monolithic institution of the so-called ONE TRUE CHURCH – the RCC – isn’t really “THE CHURCH” as is believed by faithful RCs, then that pretty much undermines all of the rest of the stuff, and leaves people with the Bible alone.

R.A.

But it is

 

[ncgolf]

I say this because if the corporate/monolithic institution of the so-called ONE TRUE CHURCH – the RCC – isn’t really “THE CHURCH” as is believed by faithful RCs, then that pretty much undermines all of the rest of the stuff, and leaves people with the Bible alone.

R.A.

Well use the Church to create the Canon … then toss the Church out because She doesn’t know what She is talking about?

No Church … no Bible so Bible alone Christians can thank the Catholic Church.

Your welcome.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

**AG: **Whatever you bind on earth… whatever you lose on earth…

RA: Again, yet ANOTHER verse utterly perverted. This is so tragic. All you need to do is a few word studies and a look at the context to see that such an idea is not supported by the text. This is shocking to me, in a way, to see scripture so misused to support various ideas. And, of course, very sad.

This is showing me repeatedly in the most strongest of terms why I am not a RC, and why I utterly reject the RCC, and will never return to Rome.

BUT, at the same time, I will gladly hang with all of you at a home BBQ, County Fair, or a restaurant (if someone will take me out to an Italian place in honor of the Pope). (that is, if you can even hang around with someone who is Anathema).

And I’ll add that I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT view the RCC as I view the LDS Church or other “cults.”

RA

AG: Dude - I am not forgiven my sins until my priest absolves me.

**RA: **This has got to be one of the saddest things I’ve ever read on a message board.

 

[sandusky]

Richard Abanes:

So, it seems, the real issue that perhaps should ONLY be discussed is: “WHAT IS THE CHURCH?”

I say this because if the corporate/monolithic institution of the so-called ONE TRUE CHURCH – the RCC – isn’t really “THE CHURCH” as is believed by faithful RCs, then that pretty much undermines all of the rest of the stuff, and leaves people with the Bible alone.

R.A.