I'm calling on everyone here in this forum EXCEPT Catholics !!!

[Brennan_Doherty]

**BRENNAN: **So when St. Ignatius called the Church “the Catholic Church” around 107 AD he was naming what? A Church that began in 102 AD? 105 AD? He was just making up the name on the spot?

**RA: **The word Catholic used by Ignatius simply meant “universal” – i.e., the “universal church” the one church that is everywhere present in those who call upon the name of the Lord.

WE – all of us – ARE the Catholic (universal) church.

This is a reference to WE – all of us – being called the “church” by Jesus. The Greek word used in Matthew for church is “ekklesia” which literally means the “called out ones.”

Jesus was saying his followers, his called out ones (from the world), his church would always exist – and the gates of hell would never prevail against US (NOT some organization).

**BRENNAN: ** And when Jesus said that He would build His Church and the gates of Hell would not prevail against it He meant what? A Church that would go completely astray around the time of Constantine and succumb to corruption for 1,200 years until God finally “woke up” and got a “saint” like Martin Luther to help start the ball rolling to start a new one (or was it an extension of an invisible one that was there the whole time?)

RA: Oh goodness, no. See first response.

Those throughout history who loved Jesus, and lived for him, and died for him, and served him NEVER ceased to be.

But certain persons who built up a political organization backed by religious talk and symbols and so-called “holy” men certainly did succomb to corruption. That had nothing to do with the ONE TRUE CATHOLIC (“universal”) CHURCH of believers – i.e., the actual Body of Christ (a metaphorical concept).

The actual Body of Christ was never corrupted.
The actual Bride of Christ remained faithful.
The actual ONE TRUE CHURCH was still there.

The only problem was that corrupt men had gained so much power under the guise of the ONE TRUE CHURCH (through politics, wealth, and wars) that they were oppressing the Bride, the Body, the Church.

R.A.

Hi Richard, thanks for the response. Here is the quote from St. Ignatius (I assume you already know it):

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.”

crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/246/Letter_of_Ignatius_of_Antioch_to_the_Smyrnaeans.html

This quote seems to be referring to a hierarchical institution which one was joined to. A bishop is a bishop of a an actual church with a set of dogmas and practices.

And really, throughout much of history, if you were a Christian you were a Catholic, I really don’t think there was this notion of it being restricted to an invisible body of believers. Or the ones we do know about who loved Jesus were faithful, practicing Catholics (St. Perpetua, St. Felicitas, St. Joan of Arc, St. Francis, St. Jerome, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc.) If they called themselves believers, but were attached to a body which was not the Catholic Church, quite likely they might have been heretics such as the Albigensians.

To me, a good picture of the visible, hierarchical, institutional Church (which is also a spiritual organization, of course) is found in Acts 15. I’m sure you’re familiar with it. I simply note that when an important dispute came up regarding salvation Paul and Barnabas went to the apostles and elders (a visible hierarchy with authority). When the question was decided by the hierarchy (“it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us…”) letters were sent out declaring the decision. Nowhere is the impression given that believers could look at scripture, pray for guidance, come to a conclusion, then follow that. Rather, they were expected to abide by the decision, led by God, of the Church. It is also interesting to note, as Mark Shea does here:

mark-shea.com/tradition.html

that those advocating circumcision could make quite a strong case for it using scripture.

 

[graceandglory]

GRACE:

GRACE: What is your suggestion for dealing with it though? Is it God’s wish that any one of them should perish?

RA: Oh, that’s a long discussion. But I can’t imagine that something couldn’t be done by the Pope, Cardinals, local authorities. Such things are so utterly abhorrent to God – just look at all the prohibitions (very strong) in the Bible against such things as divination, magick, witchcraft, occult, sorcery, etc. Goodness. This is really bad stuff to God. And yet his so-called ione true church is rife with it? Hmmmm…

His Church is not rife with it. That’s the difference. It’s a difference of terms. When you say, “Church,” you are referring to “all people who say they are Christian.” because for protestants " Church" is “all of you.” If you are going to say “His Church” to Catholics, “His Church” is the Bride of Christ, holy and spotless, without wrinkle. See Eph. 5. and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Revelations. As much as we align ourselves to Christ and His Church, we are a part of the Body of Christ, and as such we are His Bride.

Christians everywhere are sinners, you know that. That’s just a part of life until we get to heaven. The kinds of sins vary from one place to another. In some countries, certainly those things are practiced by those who call themselves Catholic. They are not “His Church” however.

I had to realize this when I was a protestant before I could honestly look at the claims of the Catholic Church. There are sinners in every pew in holy Catholic Churches with orthodox faithful Catholic priests, and in faithful evangelical congregations with holy pastors and members. Jesus taught about that in the parable of the wheat and the tares.

24* Another parable he put before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants * of the householder came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants * said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, 'No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30** Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’**”

You might be interested to know that you have the heart of Pope Benedict XVI.

There is a reason he was the chosen man for this time.
When he was the Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith, he made many statements alluding to the idea that the Catholic Church doesn’t need to be big in numbers, but needs to be a smaller, purer Church. That was quoted in a Newsweek article in April 2005.

As Prefect, he was known as “God’s Rotweiller.”

‘God’s Rottweiler’

This Vatican department, a descendant of the Holy Inquisition, protects Church orthodoxy.

The job earned him unflattering nicknames such as “The Pope’s Enforcer” and “God’s Rottweiler”.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4463397.stm

You complain that the Inquisition was the lowest and darkest point of Catholic History. Catholics today mostly agree with you. Learning from those mistakes, and applying the truth of Christ’s words in the Gospel, makes it more difficult to deal with the same situations going on in third world countries that you brought up.

What can we do? Evangelize. Teach. Educate. Send missionaries to convert, PRAY.

This is a big issue for me too. People who call themselves Catholic but were not converted in their hearts, were the #1 STUMBLING BLOCK for me becoming a Catholic.

It becomes a big issue for many faithful, orthodox Catholics in America when pro aborts get in line to received Communion at Mass and from the Pope during an election year.

Wheat and Tares.

How do you call out your sinful brothers and sisters in Christ in your own congregations? Do you practice excommunication weekly for those who have sinned? No, rather, you invite them each and every time they come through the doors to conversion of heart, the living reality of Christ in their lives. “A personal relationship with Christ.” That is orthodox Catholicism right there.

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict) has written about this conversion and this “smaller, purer Catholic Church” in Salt of the Earth by Ignatius Press.
ignatius.com/ViewProduct.aspx?SID=1&Product_ID=665&SKU=SOE-P&ReturnURL=search.aspx%3f%3fSID%3d1%26SearchCriteria%3dsalt+of+the+earth
When you read this, you will see how the Holy Spirit picked him to pastor the Church at this time.

Absolutely there are sinners in the ranks of Catholicism. Jesus Himself said there would be. It is no different anywhere else, at any other point of time.

 

[graceandglory]

It is also interesting to note, as Mark Shea does here:

mark-shea.com/tradition.html

Hi Brennan,
I notice you are from Hillsboro. You might be interested to know that Mark Shea will be at St. Thomas Aquinas in Camas, WA on Weds. November 5 at 6:15. He’s giving a talk
"Ten Reasons Not to be Catholic."

 

[Richard_Abanes]

Grace: His Church is not rife with it. That’s the difference. It’s a difference of terms. When you say, “Church,” you are referring to “all people who say they are Christian.”

RA: Actually, it is rife with it. And I find it extremely convenient that the Church is “the Church” as an unified organization under a hierarchy leadership, until that becomes a problem. Then, all of a sudden, it’s a church, but not a unified “Church” and nothing can be done about the priests, Catholics in good standings, and whole Catholic communities are suddenly not part of the real church – although they certainly look, act, talk, walk, and receive the apparent sanction of the church. Priest are under the authority of Rome and can be defrocked. RC are under the authority of Rome and can be excommunicated. Neither is done. The RCC is full of witches, black magick followers, pagans, occultists – all in good standing. I’ll have more to say about this in print over the next year.

RA

 

[graceandglory]

The RCC is full of witches, black magick followers, pagans, occultists – all in good standing. I’ll have more to say about this in print over the next year.

RA

and Calvary Chapels are filled with adulterers and fornicators.

There are thousands of born again Christians sleeping with people they aren’t married to, who were married by their pastors and are in their second, third, or fourth marriage. There are injured ex-spouses littered on the waysides of these protestant churches. I’m one of them. What about that?

Where do you draw the line?

 

[graceandglory]

Grace: His Church is not rife with it. That’s the difference. It’s a difference of terms. When you say, “Church,” you are referring to “all people who say they are Christian.”

The RCC is full of witches, black magick followers, pagans, occultists – all in good standing. I’ll have more to say about this in print over the next year.

RA

RA, if this is true, please share with your readers what Catholic teaching on magic, paganism, and the occult really is: Otherwise, you would not be a very honest journalist.

Catholic teaching straight from from the Catechism:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a1.htm

respectfully,
grace

.

"YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME"

2110 The first commandment forbids honoring gods other than the one Lord who has revealed himself to his people. It proscribes superstition and irreligion. Superstition in some sense represents a perverse excess of religion; irreligion is the vice contrary by defect to the virtue of religion.

Superstition

2111 Superstition is the deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand, is to fall into superstition.41
**
Idolatry**

2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of “idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see.” These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

Divination and magic

2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Hi Brennan,
I notice you are from Hillsboro. You might be interested to know that Mark Shea will be at St. Thomas Aquinas in Camas, WA on Weds. November 5 at 6:15. He’s giving a talk
"Ten Reasons Not to be Catholic."

Hi graceandglory,

Thanks for letting me know. I often go to his blog:

markshea.blogspot.com/

as I find it humorous and informative.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Grace: His Church is not rife with it. That’s the difference. It’s a difference of terms. When you say, “Church,” you are referring to “all people who say they are Christian.”

RA: Actually, it is rife with it. And I find it extremely convenient that the Church is “the Church” as an unified organization under a hierarchy leadership, until that becomes a problem. Then, all of a sudden, it’s a church, but not a unified “Church” and nothing can be done about the priests, Catholics in good standings, and whole Catholic communities are suddenly not part of the real church – although they certainly look, act, talk, walk, and receive the apparent sanction of the church. Priest are under the authority of Rome and can be defrocked. RC are under the authority of Rome and can be excommunicated. Neither is done. The RCC is full of witches, black magick followers, pagans, occultists – all in good standing. I’ll have more to say about this in print over the next year.

RA

Hi Richard,

I understand what you are saying. I notice, for instance, in regards to the sexual abuse scandal that I can’t say, “Well, that was a different church.” Or, “Well, that was another denomination.” In a way, I feel a deep sense of personal shame over the whole issue because it does affect everyone in some manner and brings shame on the whole Church. The same goes for things like the Crusades and Inquisition. I can’t say, “Well, that was someone else.”

Although, as an aside, it would be nice if when someone condemned the Crusades or Inquisition if they would actually get a better sense of history and what was going on before they do so. I remember hearing figures thrown about that 60 or 90 million were killed in the Inquisition, as if the Pope and all the Priests were Ninja assassins and managed to wipe out almost all of Europe.

So, I can understand it when someone calls for greater discipline and something to be done about a scandal. Certainly faithful Catholics have basically called for certain Bishops to be fired over their handling of the sex abuse scandal or just for being bad Bishops. And the Pope could do that. But there is no guarantee by God that the prudential decisions of the Church (such as who to make a Bishop, who to excommunicate, etc.) are going to be good or even wise.

I am reminded of this quote from Hilaire Belloc on the Church, it’s one of my all time favorites:

“An institute run with such knavish imbecility that if it were not the work of God it would not last a fortnight.”

brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/h/hilaire_belloc.html

Actually, while there I also ran into a couple more I like:

“All men have an instinct for conflict: at least, all healthy men.”

“Every major question in history is a religious question. It has more effect in molding life than nationalism or a common language.”

That last one reminds me of the attitude of the historian Christopher Dawson.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

Brennan,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Just know that I DO NOT view RC as I view other clearly non-Christian groups such as Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. etc. etc. If some other issues in the RCC could be fixed, I could easily look past the grace vs. works thing because it is VERY close (as I have said) to how various Protestant Arminians see salvation (I disagree with them as much as with you).

Other problems:

1. Confession
2. Mariology
3. Prayers to the dead (I always scratch my head, why would you do that when you can go to God himself, yes I already know the answer, but it makes no sense to me when I have access to the very thrown room of God myself).
4. the witchcraft/black magick/occultism in the church that is tolerated.
5. The power politics that shielded those HORRIFIC child-abusing priests

Hmm, that’s all for now.

---

graceandglory: and Calvary Chapels are filled with adulterers and fornicators.

**RA: **You must know that CCs are not set up as a monolithic entity with a pyramid-like hierarchy, right? Also, I am not talking about private sins that usually not too many people know about. Third, from what i know personally as a former attender of several CCs, when such sin is discovered, a pastor/friend/church member seeks to talk to those people. And, in fact, the pastors will not perform marriages if a couple is living in sin.

graceandglory: I’m one of them. What about that?

**RA: **Tragic, but not analogous because of the way the RCC is set up authoritatively, and how the realm of Protestantism is structured.

RA

 

[Ag_not]

Brennan, …Just know that I DO NOT view RC as I view other clearly non-Christian groups such as Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. etc. etc. If some other issues in the RCC could be fixed,…

I just have to tell you this but first I ask your forgiveness if I have read you wrong.

I SERIOUSLY DOUBT what you say. It seems to me you have a very incidious anti catholic agenda going on here - you try and dress it up really nicely and disguise it with your journalistic yak yak (thats a technical term by the way ) and you thread very carefully so as to appear not to be in breach of any of the forum rules about proselytizing but actually, you’re not a whole lot better nor more interested in finding the REAL Truth of the Catholic Church than Fred Phelps is

You’re just a whole lot more sweetly spoken and better educated than him; oh and better looking too

Now, I’m perfectly happy to come back to you and apologise if Ive been reading your posts wrongly on this board, but Ive read all your postings, and I do not detect any honest genuine effort on your part regarding Catholicism - you like to remind people here that you WERE a Catholic, so there’s nothing they can possibly tell you about the church you dont know or havent experienced - as if being an ex anything is sufficient to silence all further arguements

I think you need to be more honest about your real agenda. Oh yeah, and stop using these boards to plug your upcomming anticatholic, anticatholic church publications !!!

That’s all

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Not entirely accurate.

Generally speaking, Catholics tend to place their faith in their church, while most non-Catholic Christians place their faith in Christ, in God.

Gabriel of 12
**The difference here is that the Catholic knows from scripture and sacred Tradtion that the Church is the body of Jesus Christ not a building. I hope this clarifies your misconception of the Catholic church being the body of Jesus Christ on earth, and Jesus is the Head in heaven where there is only One body, One baptism, One Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus has never left his body he built upon Peter see Mathew 16:16 and following, also John 21:1517 and you will find our Lord Jesus doing so…

Peace be with you**

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

This is a false dichotomy. The Church is Christ’s bride; or, Christ is the head and the Church is His body. I believe the Church teaches the truth on faith and morals because it was instituted by Him and has been held and preserved by Him just as He promised (the gates of Hell will never prevail…)

Without Christ’s institution and preservation the Church would have failed in a week. But, being a divine, and not merely a human, institution, she has stayed true in her teachings despite bad popes, bad cardinals, bad priests, bad bishops, and bad Catholics.

Gabriel of 12
Truth hurts but Truth is also so soothing, love your post especially that the Catholic church is fully human and fully Divine.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

GAB: I just have to tell you this but first I ask your forgiveness if I have read you wrong.

**RA: **You’ve read me wrong. Forgiveness granted. Basically, I’m not a RC, obviously. So, I’m going to have disagreements with the RCC. If I didn’t have disagreements, I’d be a Roman Catholic.

GAB: I do not detect any honest genuine effort on your part regarding Catholicism

RA: I’m not sure why you think I’m here. if you think it’s because I am trying to learn about RC and I am ignorant of it and wanting to know more about it so that I might join – you are mistaken. I am here to talk. Listen to how others express themselves – and enjoy seeing how people think and express *why *they believe *what *they believe. I’m a professional religion journalist – I like doing research, reading, talking, probing, investigating, learning.

GAB: I think you need to be more honest about your real agenda. Oh yeah, and stop using these boards to plug your upcoming anticatholic, anticatholic church publications !!!

**RA: **Well, if you read the threads carefully, you will see that my comments about my books/materials are not as offensive as you are trying to make it sound. And FYI, I haven’t written a single book, article, paper, or essay on Roman Catholism after nearly 15 years of writing. I have ONE chapter in ONE book (about 8,000 words) coming up that deals with the views held by various Hollywood celebrities who are Roman Catholic. Mmkay?

if you expect me as a non-RC to just agree with everything and so, “Oh, okay,” then I think your expectations are highly unrealistic. I can’t imagine a RC coming to an evangelical board and doing that – can you?

R.A.

 

[Sailka]

Let me get this straight, you were an agnostic until very recently and are considering a conversion to the Catholic church and you want me to talk you out of it?
An agnostic.
Considering a conversion to Christianity.
And you want me to talk you out of it?
No way. Pass.

He said the Opposite of trying to talk him out of reverting back to The Church

He only very courteously asked You for your Faith’s 3 biggest Objectons to Catholic Teachings, so he could consider and research those, for accuracy.
Any problem giving him your Church’s 3 biggest objections to Catholic teaching?

 

[stcalixtus]

As a Catholic I say peace be with you! And God bless you, hope you find what you seek and may all Christians unite as divided we fall:blush:

 

[Pixie_Dust]

He said the Opposite of trying to talk him out of reverting back to The Church

He only very courteously asked You for your Faith’s 3 biggest Objectons to Catholic Teachings, so he could consider and research those, for accuracy.
Any problem giving him your Church’s 3 biggest objections to Catholic teaching?

Actually, I think Rightlydivide’s point was that he is thankful that an agnostic has decided to become a Christian of any stripe, and is not going to quibble over which Church she has been drawn to. I found it the most supportive and charitable post from a non-Catholic on this thread.

 

[Ag_not]

. I have ONE chapter in ONE book (about 8,000 words) coming up that deals with the views held by various Hollywood celebrities who are Roman Catholic. Mmkay? .

Ok stop saying Mmkay, mmmkay? Everytime I see that I think of South Park and get the giggles. Mmkay

You said in none post: ****The RCC is full of witches, black magick followers, pagans, occultists – all in good standing. I’ll have more to say about this in print over the next year.

You also said in another post: RA: yeah, I’ll be doing some writing on this for a chapter in a new book I’m finishing up. So, I’ll be getting into it at some length. I’ll post something after that. It’s both tragic and sad to see this merging of Christian concepts so pure and white with dark witchcraft/occultism.

You also said: "You know about my books now, you know you can read them, and you know where you can get all the pseudo-attempts to refute what they say. So, that’s really all the info you need."

Is the hollywood article connected with the rampant occultism in the catholic church or are they different books/articles?

And thanks for the heads up that the church Im going to tomorrow for the first time is fully of witchcraft and black magic rituals. I’ll be wearing my eye for protection and stuffing my pockets with garlic. Phew.

You said in yet another post: **I have a huge library of LDS materials. My two books on the subject total 1,100 pages, including nearly 300 pages of just endnotes. I would venture to say that I know both LDS doctrine and history extremely well. **

And not forgetting this: ** I also have a great book, if I do say so myself, on Lent! Actually, it’s kind of a fun little book that talks about Lent traditions, history, and proofs/importance of the resurrection **



Now you KNOW you’re being very naughty. And you know I know youre being very naughty. So stop it right now

 

[mariyka]

Ag_not,

I don’t know if you remember me, but I responded in one of your early “Weirdsville” threads. I just wanted you to know that I now search for your new user name. The threads you’ve started, or been a part of, are always lively and informative. Thank you, from a shy lurker.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I just have to tell you this but first I ask your forgiveness if I have read you wrong.

I SERIOUSLY DOUBT what you say. It seems to me you have a very incidious anti catholic agenda going on here - you try and dress it up really nicely and disguise it with your journalistic yak yak (thats a technical term by the way ) and you thread very carefully so as to appear not to be in breach of any of the forum rules about proselytizing but actually, you’re not a whole lot better nor more interested in finding the REAL Truth of the Catholic Church than Fred Phelps is

You’re just a whole lot more sweetly spoken and better educated than him; oh and better looking too

Now, I’m perfectly happy to come back to you and apologise if Ive been reading your posts wrongly on this board, but Ive read all your postings, and I do not detect any honest genuine effort on your part regarding Catholicism - you like to remind people here that you WERE a Catholic, so there’s nothing they can possibly tell you about the church you dont know or havent experienced - as if being an ex anything is sufficient to silence all further arguements

I think you need to be more honest about your real agenda. Oh yeah, and stop using these boards to plug your upcomming anticatholic, anticatholic church publications !!!

That’s all

I know Richard answered this but I also want to say that I don’t think this is a fair characterization of him. Having read his book on Mormonism “One Nation Under Gods” (I recommend it) and recognizing the research required I gather he probably does know quite a bit about Catholicism and so I understand if he’s not on here to learn more about it.

I don’t get the impression he’s on here proselytizing. I also don’t see any forum rule against it anyway. There is a rule about single mindedly promoting an agenda, and I don’t see that either. And even if he was trying to proselytize, fine. As I’m sure you know, Catholicism can stand up to scrutiny, that’s one of the reasons I converted. I hope and pray more Protestants come on these boards even if they are trying to proselytize.

I have no idea who Fred Phelps is.

Again, whatever motives a Protestant may have for coming on this board (and I don’t doubt Richard’s motives he elucidates above) I’m just glad they’re here. Because whatever their motives, there’s always hope. The Church has had the likes of John Henry Cardinal Newman, G.K. Chesterton, Judge Robert Bork, Mortimer J. Adler, and Francis Beckwith enter (to think of some converts off the top of my head–Anne Rice would be another one), so again, there’s always hope and grace.

 

[Sailka]

GAB: I just have to tell you this but first I ask your forgiveness if I have read you wrong.

**RA: **You’ve read me wrong. Forgiveness granted. Basically, I’m not a RC, obviously. So, I’m going to have disagreements with the RCC. If I didn’t have disagreements, I’d be a Roman Catholic.

GAB: I do not detect any honest genuine effort on your part regarding Catholicism

RA: I’m not sure why you think I’m here. if you think it’s because I am trying to learn about RC and I am ignorant of it and wanting to know more about it so that I might join – you are mistaken. I am here to talk. Listen to how others express themselves – and enjoy seeing how people think and express *why *they believe *what *they believe. I’m a professional religion journalist – I like doing research, reading, talking, probing, investigating, learning.

GAB: I think you need to be more honest about your real agenda. Oh yeah, and stop using these boards to plug your upcoming anticatholic, anticatholic church publications !!!

**RA: **Well, if you read the threads carefully, you will see that my comments about my books/materials are not as offensive as you are trying to make it sound. And FYI, I haven’t written a single book, article, paper, or essay on Roman Catholism after nearly 15 years of writing. I have ONE chapter in ONE book (about 8,000 words) coming up that deals with the views held by various Hollywood celebrities who are Roman Catholic. Mmkay?

if you expect me as a non-RC to just agree with everything and so, “Oh, okay,” then I think your expectations are highly unrealistic. I can’t imagine a RC coming to an evangelical board and doing that – can you?

R.A.

I apologize for some of GAB’s attitude. We are forbidden, by our Church and TOS here, from attacking anyone else, or their opinion. And we are not trying to convert, but to addresss the disagreements, basically correct misunderstandings, which Are always the poblem