I'm calling on everyone here in this forum EXCEPT Catholics !!!

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RA: I suppose this boils down ***to our subjective definition ***of what “full of” and "rife with " means. That is really the bottom line in our disagreement.

Ag_not: Now, that seems to mitigate against your statement that the Church is FULL of occultists

RA: Not at all. I can indeed make a statement like that, but not have written, completed, detailed, in-depth, documented for referencing, material for public reading. It’s the difference between speaking in specifics and making a passing comment based on material that’s in my head, but not yet definitively processed and recorded.____________________
Ahh. Ok. I’m with you now. It’s all a matter of your personal subjective interpretation, and this gives you a licence to write whatever you want on the subject and make calumnos statements like that regarding the Catholic Church on a public catholic forum. 👍

Much like how you read Scripture I expect :rolleyes: 👍
 
*RA: Not at all. I can indeed make a statement like that, but not have written, completed, detailed, in-depth, documented for referencing, material for public reading.
*
Ohhh, Like those councils in the early days you mean. They could make statements on things that they knew to be true, but didn’t have everything written down or referrenced yet. 👍
 
Cyber: Hopefully this bit of context has been helpful!

RA: Uhm, no, since al you did was re-tell the story. I said, “word-context study on the ORIGINAL LANGUAGE.”
Okay, I’ll bite. If you have some contextual information on the original language that I don’t, perhaps you’d be so kind as to share it with us?
 
. . . . Such views, of course, contradict:
  • “Marriage should be honoured by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral” (Heb. 13:4), - “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife,” (1 Tim. 3:2-4), - “Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?” (1 Cor. 9:5). The prophecy stands true:
“The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.” (1 Tim. 4:1-3 ).And this is not even to mention, but I’ll mention it anyway, Mark 10:6-9: “But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” . . .

. . . And if you examine closely the history of celibacy, it was all about money/property and assets that the church didn’t want going to offspring: Pope Pelagius I, 556-561 made new priests agree that their offspring could not inherit Church property thereby protecting Church property from inheritance . . .

. . . .A good overview:
criticaltheology.net/II_Chronology_history_of_celibacy.html
Clerical celibacy is not a significant ‘sticking point’ with me. I think the evidence from Scripture is mixed–the ‘husband of one wife’ thing likely to be an injunction against polygamy and/or concubinism, not unheard of among the ‘barbarian’ groups Paul was evangelizing, as opposed to a positive injunction.

The ‘forbidding to marry’ text was clearly directed against Gnostics and others, who were attempting to become so completely divorced from the flesh that they could renounce all manner of fleshly needs. For those groups, the ‘abstaining from marriage’ was a universal injunction of all members, not just a prerequisite for a limited set of members serving a specific role in the Church. I think we engage in eisegesis if we interpret the passage outside of this historical context.

Paul makes it clear elsewhere in his Epistles that he himself was living a celibate life–either he was widowered, had set his wife aside for the Gospel’s sake, or they were living celibate lives. Almost all scholars, Protestant or otherwise, concede this point. Christ was celibate and both Christ and Paul spoke commendably at places of those called to the celibate life.

Celibacy was banned by custom among monastics throughout the Church, and more-or-less regionally among ‘secular’ priests prior to the Council of Trent. It had become the normative practice of the Western rites, although Eastern rites–both Eastern churches in full communion with Rome as well as the various Orthodox rites still allow parish priests to marry. I wonder if Richard Abanes is aware that large numbers of Eastern-Rite bodies that are in union with Rome do allow married priests? Groups such as the Melkites, Maronites, etcetera? The restriction on celibacy among Roman Catholic priests is a Western-Rite anomaly.

The reason celibacy became an increasingly mandatory practice in the West seems to be related to sexual scandals not unlike those which now rock the RCC concerning pederasty. In those days of course, the issues were with concubinage, frequenting of prostitutes, etcetera–practices common among the married NON-clerical husbands of the time (the laymen in other words), which married priests being products of their culture felt at liberty to imitate. In those days. only the celibate priests were setting forth a compelling model of holy living and increasingly the Church saw mandatory celibacy as the best solution to the scandals otherwise besetting the Church of the time. The policy does seem to have worked for several hundred years.

I don’t think the issue of clerical property rights was a major factor. Protestant clergy do not have such problems today, not even among churches which are established by a particular pastor. Church property is owned by the church or congregation corporately, usually not by the pastor or some other individual. I think this is an issue being magnified needlessly and out of proportion to it’s real importance.

I have suggested on this forum–and suffered the slings-and-arrows of abuse for my trouble–that it might well be time for the RCC to reconsider the rule in light of a sea-change in sexual culture in our era. The Church need not abolish celibacy for ALL clergy–simply do as the Easterns and make it an option among the ‘secular’ clergy, those who normally serve parishes under the direction of a diocese.
 
Pixie: Yes, the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) can trace its doctrines back to Christ and His Apostles.

RA: Well, then, what was that whole bit about “In 300-400 the Church was Catholic, not RCC. If you really know so much about history you should know that.”

**Pixie: **(though Scripture shows that He is capable of doing so)

**RA: **That is a Mormon as well as an JW argument used to justify their false prophesies.

No, God does not 'change" his mind as you or I woudl do. You do not change your mind when you know the beginning from the end.

God changes his course of action in appropriateness to the situation that unfolds – this does NOT include moral issues or issues of obedience (i.e., adultery is morally wrong today, but will be just fine tomorrow). As for places in scripture where he seems to change his mind, you might want to consider Ninevah. He threatened to destroy the population//city in a set amount of time. But the people/city repented, so he did not destroy the city. Why?

Because the people/city were no longer the same people/city. They had, for all intents and purposes, become a righteous city/people. His action toward them, therefore, became appropriate for who they were. That is a fine line distinction, but one that cannot be overlooked.

Pixie: I know many a pastor’s kid who can testify that their dad was forever off doing church business.

**RA: **And THAT is actually disobedience.

Pixie: It’s a tough balance and if a man doesn’t have to choose between his church family and his household, it’s better.

RA: But it should be HIS choice.

Grace,

I hear ya. We have much in common. But we’ll just have to disagree at several places I suppose.

RA
 
Oh, and YES everyone, I know I know I know about Eastern Rites. 😛 I’m talking about the RC only here.

RA
 
Oh, and YES everyone, I know I know I know about Eastern Rites. 😛 I’m talking about the RC only here.
You do realize that all the rites in the Catholic Church are all part of the SAME religion, right? We all believe exactly the same things. There are even a few rites that are the results of a group coming back to Rome after being away for so long, thanks be to God.
 
Oh, and YES everyone, I know I know I know about Eastern Rites. 😛 I’m talking about the RC only here.

RA
You understand the distinction between Eastern Rite Catholics–those Rites which derive from the liturgical traditions of the Eastern Churches but which remain loyal to the Pope at Rome, as opposed to the various Eastern Orthodox traditions (Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, etcetera)? (The existence of married priests within the Eastern branch of the RCC is one reason that I have for feeling that the inheritance-rights issue was not a serious consideration in the legislating of celibacy in the West).

Just checking since the distinction is a bit fine and a lot of Latin-Rite Catholics are not aware of it. The very fact that you distinguished between “Eastern Rites” and the “RC” in the quote above made me wary that you might not realize that. Eastern-Rite Catholics would be part of the RCC as much as Latin-Rite Catholics are.

Generally, when one is speaking of distinctions between those Rites, one distinguishes them by speaking of “Eastern Rites” as opposed to “Roman Rites”, “Latin Rites”, or sometimes “Western Rites”. There is a hazard in the latter because there is something called “Western Rite Orthodoxy”, which are Orthodox Churches which use either a variant of the Latin Rite or the Episcopalian (Sarum) Rite.

You have not taken note, so far as I can see, of the numerous dispensations being made on behalf of Protestant clergy converting to the RCC. Many of those (married) clergy are being ordained as priests and accepted along with their spouses and children. Real hope there that the RCC will eventually allow married clergy.

Final thing: you understand that although a few radical traditionalists treat the discipline of celibacy almost as though it is dogmatically defined–MOST Catholics do understand that the practice is in fact a ‘discipline’, imposed by the RCC on it’s Western wing for specific historical reasons. This is part of my reason for not finding the celibacy issue particularly troubling, though I think the RCC would find it helpful to re-examine the issue at the present time. No one “must” be a Catholic priest–all believers have their own share in the priesthood of Christ, and to have the specific call to a formal priesthood is between the individual and God.

IF the RCC has within itself the authority to ‘bind and to loose’, both on Earth and in Heaven, then it can bind it’s clergy on Earth legitimately to celibacy and expect that God will honor that restriction in Heaven by calling to public ministry only those whom He has first called to celibacy. I don’t question the authority of the RCC to impose the restriction so much as I suggest the original reasons for the restriction no longer dominate the Church and thus the restrictions could rightly be relaxed.

Of course, the Papacy is not taking feedback from me on the celibacy issue this month. I’m not expecting to be on the calendar next month either.
 
we’re all starting to cross up language here – i think some issues can only be discussed so clearly on forums. sigh. 🤷 yes yes i know…
 
Pixie: Yes, the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) can trace its doctrines back to Christ and His Apostles.

RA: Well, then, what was that whole bit about “In 300-400 the Church was Catholic, not RCC. If you really know so much about history you should know that.”
It was about the fact that the Latin Rite is not the sum total of the Catholic Church. The other rites are equally Catholic, and all have apostolic succession.
**Pixie: **(though Scripture shows that He is capable of doing so)
**RA: **That is a Mormon as well as an JW argument used to justify their false prophesies.
No, God does not 'change" his mind as you or I woudl do. You do not change your mind when you know the beginning from the end.
God changes his course of action in appropriateness to the situation that unfolds – this does NOT include moral issues or issues of obedience (i.e., adultery is morally wrong today, but will be just fine tomorrow). As for places in scripture where he seems to change his mind, you might want to consider Ninevah. He threatened to destroy the population//city in a set amount of time. But the people/city repented, so he did not destroy the city. Why?
The part I bolded is exactly what I was referring to, I know full well that God is not like me. I find it a little troubling that in one post you say you are not anti-Catholic and then in another post you liken Catholicism, founded 2000 years ago by Christ, to false religions that were founded less than 200 years ago by men.
Pixie: I know many a pastor’s kid who can testify that their dad was forever off doing church business.
**RA: **And THAT is actually disobedience.
Pixie: It’s a tough balance and if a man doesn’t have to choose between his church family and his household, it’s better.
RA: But it should be HIS choice.
It is his choice, well, God’s call rather, to dedicate himself to service in the Church. No one is forced to become a priest. Not one seminarian is shocked to one day discover that if he becomes a priest in the Latin Rite he won’t get married.

Matthew 19:12 "For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."
 
I hate to answer a question with a question, but why would you ask that question on a Catholic board? Why would you ask everyone except Catholics? If you really wanted answers from everyone that wasn’t Catholic, you would go to a Protestant or Non-Denom forum and ask those questions. It just screams," I am going to ask these questions on a Catholic board, so Catholics will read it, and hopefully be persuaded against their own religion; in the nicest way possible."–I see right through this one, and do not agree with your tactics. Ofcourse, you know it will not be deleted. I really do not like “sneaky”.
 
we’re all starting to cross up language here – i think some issues can only be discussed so clearly on forums. sigh. 🤷 yes yes i know…
Hi Richard<

No one meant to talk down to you. It’s a fine distinction which some folks aren’t aware of. I personally drove past St. Raymond’s Maronite Cathedral in St. Louis for nigh onto a decade-and-a-half, until I came here, before I knew that the Maronites are not an expatriated people-group like, for example the Vietnamese refugees who established a Catholic Church in my home town back in the 1970’s. It was really only after coming to the website here that I really understood the distinctions between the Eastern Rites and the Eastern Orthodox. Again, sorry for the kindergarten lesson but I think we all wanted to avoid talking at cross-purposes.

Out of curiosity, since you have drawn parallels between what RC’s here have said and what you have heard from LDS, Witnesses, and the like–there IS a distinction to be made here,. over-and-above the sotieriological issues being tossed about for the past several pages. The RCC has been steadily converting not only run-of-the-mill lay Protestant people but also, and more notably, prominent Evangelical and Fundamentalist Evangelicals. I’ve listed any number of these both here and elsewhere. EWTN even has a weekly broadcast which features such converts. And these conversions are being accomplished WITHOUT aggressive proselytizing efforts on the part of Roman Catholics.

Of course the RCC has apologetic programs. Most of those, however, are NOT strictly speaking, ‘outreaches’ to Evangelicals or the unevangelized. Things such as this very Catholic Answers webforum and radio broadcast usually are NOT targeted specifically at Protestants, much less the unchurched, but tend to be more of a service to Catholics to equip them to answer the attacks that many Roman Catholics experience in their day-to-day interactions with Protestants. In other words, most Catholic apologetics ministries are defensive, as opposed to many Protestant ministries which actively seek to evangelize. (Mormon apologists like to say that their efforts are likewise defensive in nature; the distinction however is that Mormons send out missionaries, door-to-door, as well as sponsoring widely diseminated media efforts on a fairly regular basis. I can’t think of any corrolary effort sponsored by the RCC itself nor by any parish or diocese, aimed at such a deliberate or focused appeal to convert non-members).

I make that point because most of the Evangelical converts I have read have NOT been converted by direct deliberate proselytizing efforts aimed at them. They have studied their way into the RCC. They have confronted some sort of anomaly in the theology of their Protestant teachings, and found that the RCC offered a better resolution of that anomaly. They pursued that line of thinking and, over years or even decades they converted to the RCC. This seems to be how the Hahns found themselves becoming Catholic. It seems to be how Cardinal Newman and Fr. Faber were converted. It seems to be what led Thomas Howard to the RCC.

These are in addition to some notable skeptics and atheists who have become Catholic over the years. I know of no other organization experiencing such a consistent and often disproportionate number of conversions among members of the intellectual classes. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesseses aren’t doing it. Muslims aren’t experiencing growth among that particular class of Westerners to my knowledge. Even the eastern mystical religions, Buddhism and the like, have lost their patina of attraction for many, as I understand it.

I am not suggesting that the conversion of intellectuals or leaders is of itself a proof of anything. However a number of these people have done a fair job of giving an account of their reasons for converting. Given that they are known to be serious thinkers, who apparently applied themselves seriously to their decisions to become Roman Catholic, their opinions stand a fair chance of having substance. Have you read some of those person’s thoughts and reasons for their decisions and would you care to comment on such on this forum? Feel free to decline if you’d rather.

Thanks, Richard.
 
PIXIE: I find it a little troubling that in one post you say you are not anti-Catholic and then in another post you liken Catholicism, founded 2000 years ago by Christ, to false religions that were founded less than 200 years ago by men.

**RA: **Pixie, friend, I think you *might *be showing your hyper-sensitivity. I would ask that you take a deep breath and read what i am about to say very slowly and carefully and thoughtfully. 🤓

PLEASE, look again at what I actually said – “That is a Mormon as well as an JW argument.” And is indeed an argument used by them to justify their false prophesies. I did not say, as you suggested, “Catholicism is like Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses.”

In fact, in an earlier post, I EXPLICITLY stated: “Just know that I DO NOT view RC as I view other clearly non-Christian groups such as Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. etc. etc.” (This thread, Oct 25, '08, 3:38 pm). :tiphat:

This does not mean a RC can’t use an argument that to me smacks of the kind of argument a Mormon or JW might use. And I’ll go further, some evangelicals and Fundamentalists can do this as well – I have seen it. (see, I’m an equal opportunity offender). LoL.:knight2:

We can’t keep talking past each other if we are going to communicate. We must slow down, perhaps, and read more carefully, rather than in a reactionary way.

RA
 
Flame: Out of curiosity, since you have drawn parallels between what RC’s here have said and what you have heard from LDS, Witnesses, and the like – there IS a distinction to be made here…

RA: Goodness, yes, yes, yes. Of course. Miles apart. Many excellent thinkers, godly, Christ-loving, God-serving Christians are in the RCC. (I’m not one of them - ROFL).

Dr. Frank Beckwith springs to mind – an AWESOME Christian thinker who I personally know loves the Lord with all his heart, soul, mind and strength (He endorsed by book on Mormonism). He, of course, is the former evangelical luminary who returned to his Roman roots and wrote about it in RETURN TO ROME.

R.A.
PS See, I ain’t such a hater after all.:eek:
 
A link that has a really good list of the notable Catholic converts over the past several centuries:

lrc.edu/rel/blosser/converts.htm

I would have pasted to my earlier post but the forum has time limits on how long one has to make revisions to posts.

One other thought from my earlier post: I wish Roman Catholic officialdom DID do more to actively evangelize unchurched people in Western nations. It is not a bad thing that Evangelicals reach out in this way.
 
I make that point because most of the Evangelical converts I have read have NOT been converted by direct deliberate proselytizing efforts aimed at them. They have studied their way into the RCC. They have confronted some sort of anomaly in the theology of their Protestant teachings, and found that the RCC offered a better resolution of that anomaly. They pursued that line of thinking and, over years or even decades they converted to the RCC. This seems to be how the Hahns found themselves becoming Catholic. It seems to be how Cardinal Newman and Fr. Faber were converted. It seems to be what led Thomas Howard to the RCC.
I resemble this paragraph! 😃 Thomas Howard’s Evangelical is Not Enough is one of the first books I read. It put the Scriptures in a whole different light than my non-sacramental background had ever attempted to do.
 
I resemble this paragraph! 😃 Thomas Howard’s Evangelical is Not Enough is one of the first books I read. It put the Scriptures in a whole different light than my non-sacramental background had ever attempted to do.
Howard’s thinking is influencing mine as well. By the way–he was not a Roman Catholic when he wrote that book, and as I understand, he originally intended it as an appeal to Evangelicals for a richer liturgical and prayer life. I don’t know if the postlude, where he notes his conversion to the RCC was something added to later editions of the book or if it was part of the original publication.
 
I hate to answer a question with a question, but why would you ask that question on a Catholic board? Why would you ask everyone except Catholics? If you really wanted answers from everyone that wasn’t Catholic, you would go to a Protestant or Non-Denom forum and ask those questions. It just screams," I am going to ask these questions on a Catholic board, so Catholics will read it, and hopefully be persuaded against their own religion; in the nicest way possible."–I see right through this one, and do not agree with your tactics. Ofcourse, you know it will not be deleted. I really do not like “sneaky”.
I asked the question to try and focus my mind on what the main objections to catholicism were, from non catholics. I could then look more closely at these for my own education.
I did.
And the result is I am convinced that the catholic church is the one true church.
And Ive just started RCIA.

But thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

I greatly appreciate it :rolleyes:
 
This might be a good time for me to say thank you to you all. Ive had my doubts raised and my questions answered and my reading done.

As a result Ive started in RCIA. :eek:

I’ll be a catholic next Easter. 😃

You guys continue to hammer it out. :cool:

I’ll make the coffee 👍
 
This might be a good time for me to say thank you to you all. Ive had my doubts raised and my questions answered and my reading done.

As a result Ive started in RCIA. :eek:

I’ll be a catholic next Easter. 😃

You guys continue to hammer it out. :cool:

I’ll make the coffee 👍
:extrahappy:
 
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