I'm calling on everyone here in this forum EXCEPT Catholics !!!

[cyberjacques]

This might be a good time for me to say thank you to you all. Ive had my doubts raised and my questions answered and my reading done.

As a result Ive started in RCIA.

I’ll be a catholic next Easter.

You guys continue to hammer it out.

I’ll make the coffee

Congratulations!!! It’s moments like these that make it all worth while. I was also agnostic, for the first 24 years of my life. Suddenly realizing that there really is a God sorta throws you for a loop, huh?

By the way, how did you get into RCIA near the end of October?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

This might be a good time for me to say thank you to you all. Ive had my doubts raised and my questions answered and my reading done.

As a result Ive started in RCIA.

I’ll be a catholic next Easter.

You guys continue to hammer it out.

I’ll make the coffee

That is so wonderful news:thumbsup: Praying for all those in RCIA, RCIA to me is like an infant in the mothers womb. Mother Church nourishes the infant in her womb, feeding and teaching all that Jesus commanded her to do, and while summer ends, winter sets in, and then in spring out comes the New Born beautiful Creation in Christ Jesus from the first infant bath of the baptismal waters , where the new christian is able to commune with the living God, born into the family of God who have many brothers and sisters on earth and living in Heaven.

Peace and the love and joy of Jesus Christ be with you on your journey home.

p.s you know God forbid, if God should take you home today, your desire of baptism saves you, God love you and keep you.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Pixie,

I’m sad that your Baptist church thought dancing was sinful. Ugh, I can’t even get started on that one. I have to breath now to control my temper at those Baptists and go get a cup of coffee. :banghead:

RA

Oh, that’s right. You have a background in professional dance. Now your displeasure at the Baptists is starting to make sense…

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

:aok: :kiss4you:

Okay, some people have been addressing Ag-not as a man. Yet when I look at the signature line I see a woman in the picture.

Which is it?

 

[Ag_not]

Okay, some people have been addressing Ag-not as a man. Yet when I look at the signature line I see a woman in the picture.

Which is it?

(quickly puts her hands on her chest - and sighs with relief )

I’m female :kiss4you: I did spot the references to ‘‘he’’ but to be honest I couldnt be bothered to correct - if people think that’s a pic of a guy in my signature well there’s no hope for me

To be fair though, in my pre belief in God days, I could drink any man under the table, swore like a sailor and thought a night out was a disaster if I didn’t bed someone So the confusion with a man is understandable

Bruxilda x

 

[flameburns623]

(quickly puts her hands on her chest - and sighs with relief )

I’m female :kiss4you: I did spot the references to ‘‘he’’ but to be honest I couldnt be bothered to correct - if people think that’s a pic of a guy in my signature well there’s no hope for me

To be fair though, in my pre belief in God days, I could drink any man under the table, swore like a sailor and thought a night out was a disaster if I didn’t bed someone So the confusion with a man is understandable

Bruxilda x

I seldom check profiles, and I wasn’t paying much attention to your sig line–a lot of time, images used in avatars or signature lines represent something mean something to the person but no one else.

The second identity I ever created for myself when I first came online was something like “HopeNHm4evr”–that’s probably not exact but it’s close.This was back when I was on WebTV, long before I ever came to this forum, btw. “Hope” being a common girl’s name–I had a lot of guys in PM trying to ask me out. (I AM a guy, for the record). I also experienced a lot of dismissiveness–an “Aww, what does she know, she’s just a girl” attitude. Hard to explain why I felt that folks were reacting to me that way. In fact I didnt know what the heck was going on at first–once I figured it out, I allowed “HopeNHim4evr” or whatever it was to languish and ‘die’.

Sorry I referred to you as a guy.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

I read the Council of Trent CANONS again…well, especially after our conversations here in this thread. And the canons just made me shake my head and confirmed to me again why I am not a Roman Catholic:

Canon 9: *“If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.” *

Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

Canon 30: “If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.”

Canon 33: “If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.”

My Friends (thank you, John McCain), it is unfortunate that your own Council absolutely damns me to hell, although I can still look to you as brothers and sisters in Christ with whom I merely have some disagreements. Canon 24, in fact, mirrors almost verbatim EXACTLY what I have been stating in this thread.

So, unless you have some official document canceling out the COT Canons, well, I’m sure the Pope would be able to smell the sulpher on me already if he were ever to visit here. Surely, at least SOME of you can, too. And this is not even all the cannons. You can add the retraction of the Council of Trent to my list of reasons why I could never join the RC Church – I’d forgotten about that Council’s pronouncements (I must be getting old).

R.A

 

[steve_b]

I read the Council of Trent CANONS again…well, especially after our conversations here in this thread. And the canons just made me shake my head and confirmed to me again why I am not a Roman Catholic:

Canon 9: *“If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.” *Canon 24: ***“If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.”***Canon 30: *“If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.”*Canon 33: *“If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.”*My Friends (thank you, John McCain), it is unfortunate that your own Council absolutely damns me to hell, although I can still look to you as brothers and sisters in Christ with whom I merely have some disagreements. Canon 24, in fact, mirrors almost verbatim EXACTLY what I have been stating in this thread.

So, unless you have some official document canceling out the COT Canons, well, I’m sure the Pope would be able to smell the sulpher on me already if he were ever to visit here. Surely, at least SOME of you can, too. And this is not even all the cannons. You can add the retraction of the Council of Trent to my list of reasons why I could never join the RC Church – I’d forgotten about that Council’s pronouncements (I must be getting old).

R.A

Refute canon 24 with scripture

BTW, anathema in this case isn’t damning you to hell. Only God sends one to hell

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

(quickly puts her hands on her chest - and sighs with relief )

I’m female :kiss4you: I did spot the references to ‘‘he’’ but to be honest I couldnt be bothered to correct - if people think that’s a pic of a guy in my signature well there’s no hope for me

To be fair though, in my pre belief in God days, I could drink any man under the table, swore like a sailor and thought a night out was a disaster if I didn’t bed someone So the confusion with a man is understandable

Bruxilda x

Hi Ag-not

Well, I did think you were a girl from your pic, your writing, and your use of emoticons. I just didn’t want to assume and be wrong. Thanks.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

anathema: Gr., 'cursed," “accursed,” “cursed by God.” It is used in Galatians 1:8-9 in reference to those who “nullify the Death of Christ” (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 264). Translated in the Septuagint as cherem, which signified an offering that was given up for DESTRUCTION and BURNING – i.e., cursed, destroyed, killed. “In Romans 9:3, estrangement from Christ and His salvation. . . . given over or devoted to divine condemnation” (The Complete Word-Study New Testament, pp. 148-149).

Sorry, friends, I’ll go with the Bible: “If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Rom. 10:9).

R.A.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

Steve: Refute canon 24 with scripture

RA: Been there, done that. I can’t help you accept it. That has to be the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said: “It is Finished.” Bro, stop trying to add to it, and build up an account to make you righteous enough to see God one day. Jesus did it for you through his righteousness because you, my friend, will never be righteous enough – none of us will/can be. To think otherwise, IMHO, is a bit of self-deception. We are born in sin, and as sinners can only be made right with God through the perfect life lived by Christ, whose righteousness is imparted to us. That’s the evangelical view – and (cough) the Bible’s view.

RA

 

[Genesis315]

The anathema signifies the casting out of the person from the community (or to not let them into the community). It’s same way as St. Paul used the phrase when discussing people bringing “a different Gospel.” “Let him be anathema” means “let him be an outcast from the community of believers.”

The Council is saying that those who defy those canons are bringing a different Gospel and therefore cannot be members of the Church.

As an aside, the idea that heresy cannot jeopardize one’s salvation is actually very new, even to Protestants. It is especially surprising to hear it come from someone professing “sola fide” since heresy is directly contrary to faith–by committing heresy, one chooses to believe something contrary to what God has revealed. This is faith in one’s own self and reason rather than faith in the all-knowing and all-loving God.

Of course, if one is mistaken in good faith, it would not be heresy, properly so called.

 

[graceandglory]

anathema: Gr., 'cursed," “accursed,” “cursed by God.” It is used in Galatians 1:8-9 in reference to those who “nullify the Death of Christ” (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 264). Translated in the Septuagint as cherem, which signified an offering that was given up for DESTRUCTION and BURNING – i.e., cursed, destroyed, killed. “In Romans 9:3, estrangement from Christ and His salvation. . . . given over or devoted to divine condemnation” (The Complete Word-Study New Testament, pp. 148-149).

Sorry, friends, I’ll go with the Bible: “If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Rom. 10:9).

R.A.

No fair using a protestant definition for a catholic word.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

Genesis: “Let him be anathema” means “let him be an outcast from the community of believers.” The Council is saying that those who defy those canons are bringing a different Gospel and therefore cannot be members of the Church.

RA: Ahhh, I see. So then, I am – by your own church’s decrees – not a Christian (since I am most assuredly preaching a different Gospel). And I am not a member of Christ’s church, which means that at this point at least, I am also destined for eternal hellfire. And, if I understand you correctly, I need to be “outcast from the community of believers.”

Hmm, too bad.

This does, however, confirm that which I had hoped would not be confirmed. I shall leave you then, and cast myself out, since I am clearly, by your own cannons (play on words intended), none too welcome, which is odd, because until I brought up the Council’s pronouncements, everyone seemed to be fine with me. Ah well.

Yes, most definitely, I will never be a Roman Catholic. But this might just prompt me to do more extensive work on the “True” church. And for that, I am grateful for all of our talks. I do appreciate you all, and it is unfortunate that such a serious wall of animosity, antagonism, and bad blood remains between us.

R.A.
visiting heretic

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I read the Council of Trent CANONS again…well, especially after our conversations here in this thread. And the canons just made me shake my head and confirmed to me again why I am not a Roman Catholic:

Canon 9: *“If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.” *

Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

Canon 30: “If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.”

Canon 33: *“If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.”*My Friends (thank you, John McCain), it is unfortunate that your own Council absolutely damns me to hell, although I can still look to you as brothers and sisters in Christ with whom I merely have some disagreements. Canon 24, in fact, mirrors almost verbatim EXACTLY what I have been stating in this thread.

So, unless you have some official document canceling out the COT Canons, well, I’m sure the Pope would be able to smell the sulpher on me already if he were ever to visit here. Surely, at least SOME of you can, too. And this is not even all the cannons. You can add the retraction of the Council of Trent to my list of reasons why I could never join the RC Church – I’d forgotten about that Council’s pronouncements (I must be getting old).

R.A

Hi Richard,

My favorite Council! Oh, how I do love the precision (and I’m sure it’s even better in the original Latin). I also like the fact that the Church has official teaching like this that Catholics can’t disavow.

Quite frankly, my first reaction is that this has to do with how Protestants and Catholics view salvation. If salvation is forensic (which I take to be the Protestant view) where one is declared righteous, then I would agree that there is nothing necessary (or even beneficial) to our salvation beyond that.

If we are talking infused righteousness (the Catholic view) with the notion that “the pure in heart shall see God…”, or, “We shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is…” then salvation encompasses what Protestants would call sanctification. In other words, we will be fully pure and truly, intrinsically righteous in heaven.

Thus, I assume many Protestants believe that if you do certain “good works” such as pray, read the Bible, etc. you will grow in sanctification or holiness. Catholics believe this as well and consider this a part of the working out of our salvation. Now, if I couple the notion of good works with the Canons from the Council of Orange, where it is very explicit that we can do nothing apart from the grace of God (yet we have free will), then we can see that this is not speaking of some strictly human, pull yourself up by your bootstraps effort. God’s grace helps and enables us to grow more holy.

 

[graceandglory]

The anathema signifies the casting out of the person from the community (or to not let them into the community). It’s same way as St. Paul used the phrase when discussing people bringing “a different Gospel.” “Let him be anathema” means “let him be an outcast from the community of believers.”

The Council is saying that those who defy those canons are bringing a different Gospel and therefore cannot be members of the Church.

As an aside, the idea that heresy cannot jeopardize one’s salvation is actually very new, even to Protestants. It is especially surprising to hear it come from someone professing “sola fide” since heresy is directly contrary to faith–by committing heresy, one chooses to believe something contrary to what God has revealed. This is faith in one’s own self and reason rather than faith in the all-knowing and all-loving God.

Of course, if one is mistaken in good faith, it would not be heresy, properly so called.

And above all, only God knows our hearts. It will be our hearts that either commend us to God or condemn us. When I was away from the Catholic Church for so many years, I know that it was my heart’s desire to be as orthodox as I possibly could as much as I knew how to be. I wanted to love and serve God and I wanted to know God’s truth. I never knew a faithful Catholic and I was never exposed to orthodox Catholicism.

6 yrs ago, I would have been shocked if someone told me I would be Catholic. Five yrs ago, I was checking into Eastern Orthodoxy. It seemed close, and I was dead set against looking at the Catholic Church. Something was missing though. A sense of universality. It seemed so broken up by ethnicity. As a true blue American, I couldn’t find a home in the Orthodox Church. Only by God’s grace did I finally stumble upon faithful Catholics. Four years ago I visited a Catholic Church for the first time in years. I realized there was much I had to learn and study and accept. The biggest hurdle was mystery. Once I got past the idea that I would understand everything this side of heaven, the rest got easier.

Not agreeing with something that you don’t understand is one thing. Completely denying the possibility of something and holding yourself up as the final arbiter of truth and authority is prideful, lacks humility, and might even be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is the only unforgiven sin.

 

[steve_b]

Steve: Refute canon 24 with scripture

RA: Been there, done that. I can’t help you accept it. That has to be the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said: “It is Finished.” Bro, stop trying to add to it, and build up an account to make you righteous enough to see God one day.

Just answer the question. I know what YOU think. I said give me the scripture that refutes canon 24. I want to see EXACTLY the scriptures you’re using
RA:

Jesus did it for you through his righteousness because you, my friend, will never be righteous enough – none of us will/can be.

Give the scriptures that refute canon 24
RA:

To think otherwise, IMHO, is a bit of self-deception. We are born in sin, and as sinners can only be made right with God through the perfect life lived by Christ, whose righteousness is imparted to us. That’s the evangelical view – and (cough) the Bible’s view.

RA

Please Give the scriptures, absent your talking points, that refute canon 24.

 

[flameburns623]

Richard:

You are a material heretic insofar as you are not visibly bound to the RCC by your church affilliation. Hence you are “anathema”.

Also, since you were baptised Roman Catholic–you have never indicated if you were catechised and or confirmed–the standards for invincible ignorance of your obligation to be visibly faithful to the Catholic Church are higher than otherwise. This makes you some other kind of heretic but I forget the proper terminology. (A Protestant who was never a Catholic is always a ‘material’ heretic but a Catholic who leaves the Catholic Church for a heretical Christian movement becomes the other, more-serious kind of heretic. Ain’t it wonderful to count the number of angels on the heads of pins? This sort of ennumerating and cataloguing is absolutely loathed by Eastern Orthodox I’m told–it’s one of the peripheral barriers to reunion).

You should note however that you are absolutely forbidden by Catholic dogma itself to violate your conscience. You ARE under severest obligation to rightly inform your conscience, and to act in deliberate rejection of the Magisterium and the dogmas of the Church implies (from the perspective of the RCC, which assumes Herself to be the True Church of Christ, the Pillar and Ground of Truth), that your conscience is not rightly informed.

Presumably you would obey your conscience and the Scriptures if you were in fact convinced by Scripture and reason that the Catholic Church is indeed the True Church of Christ. If this is true, then the high probability is that you have met the standards for ‘baptism by desire’ into the Catholic Church and that you are indeed a brother in Christ. Please note my summary of the conditions for ‘baptism of desire’ from another thread:

flameburns623:

So long as you remain outside the RCC through no fault of your own, due to an ‘invincible ignorance’ of your duty to be visibly conformed to the Catholic Church through the Sacraments; so long as you are obedient to the Grace of God and His revelation of Himself to you as you are best able to receive it; so long as you are genuinely contrite for all of your sins (some would say ‘perfectly contrite’, which is to say, sorry for your sins out of a perfect love for God as you understand Him); and so long as you WOULD become Catholic if by some act of Divine Grace, your ignorance were overcome and you came to know that you must join the Catholic Church to be saved: so long as those conditions remain in place, you are a member of the Catholic Church ‘by desire’. Remember all of the elements involved:

1. THROUGH NO FAULT OF YOUR OWN outside visible union with the Church;
2. INVINCIBLY IGNORANT of your obligation to join the RCC;
3. OBEDIENT TO THE BEST YOU KNOW by the light of Christ you have received;
4. GENUINELY (or, PERFECTLY) CONTRITE TO GOD for all of your sins, as your conscience and the Light of Christ reveals these to you;
5. WILLING TO SUBMIT TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH if you became aware that She is the One True Church established by Christ.

Some suggest these are such high expectations that few non-Catholics, especially Protestants, ever rise to them. Others have high hopes that many if not most faithful Protestants will be saved.

Infants who are baptised but die before the age of full discretion are admitted to Heaven, irrespective of the denomination of their parents so far as I know. Unbaptised infants are at a minimum received into a condition of ‘natural bliss’ (i.e.: Limbo); the RCC presently leaves their condition up to the mercy of God.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

**Flame: **… since you were baptised Roman Catholic–you have never indicated if you were catechised and or confirmed–the standards for invincible ignorance of your obligation to be visibly faithful to the Catholic Church are higher than otherwise.

RA: I am confirmed…I got the extra name and everything – JOSEPH! Ooopsy. Too bad for me, I guess.

Flame: but a Catholic who leaves the Catholic Church for a heretical Christian movement becomes the other, more-serious kind of heretic.

**RA: **Yup. That’s me!!! Weeeeee.

FLame: You ARE under severest obligation to rightly inform your conscience, and to act in deliberate rejection of the Magisterium and the dogmas of the Church implies (from the perspective of the RCC, which assumes Herself to be the True Church of Christ, the Pillar and Ground of Truth), that your conscience is not rightly informed.

RA: I’m rightly informed. And I reject it. But I do accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, the only way truth and life (Jn 14:6), who lovingly died for my sins on the cross, so that by his grace might have forgiveness of my sins, and by his shed blood be cleansed from all unrighteousness, and resurrected from the dead unto eternal life, just as he physically rose from the dead after three days in the grave. I love him with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength, and serve him with all my life, counting any and all sacrifices I have made for him to be a blessing, honor, and privilege.

But I guess, well, in your eyes, all of that makes no difference. I am Anathema.

RA

 

[flameburns623]

. . . I am confirmed…I got the extra name and everything – JOSEPH! Ooopsy. Too bad for me, I guess.

Flame: but a Catholic who leaves the Catholic Church for a heretical Christian movement becomes the other, more-serious kind of heretic.

**RA: **Yup. That’s me!!! Weeee.

Flame: You ARE under severest obligation to rightly inform your conscience, and to act in deliberate rejection of the Magisterium and the dogmas of the Church implies (from the perspective of the RCC, which assumes Herself to be the True Church of Christ, the Pillar and Ground of Truth), that your conscience is not rightly informed . . . .

. . . . But I guess, well, in your eyes, all of that makes no difference. I am Anathema.

RA

Anathema, yes. “Damned by God”, according to the RCC’s understanding of anathema–that is largely between you and God.

If that ignorance is truly in no wise your own fault, if God has not granted you whatever graces you need to see the falsity of your present position and the truth of the Catholic position–then you are not held culpable for that ignorance. Faith is a gift. If you WOULD become Catholic once you were convinced of it’s truth-claims, if you do not possess a stubborn willfulness that would keep you away even if you knew the truth–then you meet all of the qualifications, so far as any human being can gauge, of receiving the ‘baptism of desire’. You are (still) part of the Catholic Church by your sincere desire to do Christ’s will to the best of your knowledge and ability. You just are not a formal member of the RCC: you are cut off from Her sacraments and the spiritual graces the RCC believes would otherwise be available to you from Christ if you were formally joined to Her.
Richard Abanes:

. . . . But I do accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, the only way truth and life (Jn 14:6), who lovingly died for my sins on the cross, so that by his grace might have forgiveness of my sins, and by his shed blood be cleansed from all unrighteousness, and resurrected from the dead unto eternal life, just as he physically rose from the dead after three days in the grave. I love him with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength, and serve him with all my life, counting any and all sacrifices I have made for him to be a blessing, honor, and privilege.

So . . .you are hopeful of God’s Heaven for yourself. Roman Catholics are hopeful with you on your behalf. Catholics do say that to whom much is given, much is required, so that apostate Catholics have a stiffer standard to meet to have a chance of receiving the grace of ‘baptism of desire’. In times past, Rumble and Carty (Catholic radio apologists of the 1940’s) would have consigned you to Hell with no hope of escape barring your repentance and formal renunciation of heresy. Contemporary theologians–NOT because the RCC has changed it’s teaching on baptism of desire but because of the changing understanding of human psychology–suggest that it is at least possible that even persons raised Catholic may indeed be recipients of the grace of baptism by desire.

By the way-- the distinctions in heresies are between ‘material heresies’ and ‘formal heresies’. A material heresy is one that the heretic does not know to be heresy; a formal heresy is one that the heretic knows to be heretical but believes anyhow. It is possible I have misused these terms in my earlier post. But I am not a Catholic theologian–I’m not yet even reconciled to the RCC myself–so hopeful the theologically-correct will forgive any errors in usage I have made.