I'm confused about Cain's wife

[Prof_54]

How do you know that a humanoid, if there were one, could co-habitate with humans? For me, the question boils down to, "Do you believe that Genesis is God’s preserved divine account of creation or a human (however sincere) concoction? The church has historically believed in a literal view of Genesis and that Adam and Eve were the first humans. If you question Adam and Eve then you must question all the other names in Genesis 5 and the table of nations in chapter 10. Further if “all scripture is given by God”(II Timothy 3:16) then it would be as Paul firmly believed that the Genesis account is trustworthy.

Remember that there could have been a hundred years before “in the course of time” Cain brought his offering. That is plenty of time to find a wife among his sisters and for a number of other women to be born.

 

[pprimeau1976]

How do you know that a humanoid, if there were one, could co-habitate with humans?

I think Ghosty’s usage of humanoid has been misconstrued. In my previous post, I used the term homo sapiens and humans as two separate classifications. I defined a human as a *homo sapiens *with a rational soul. Ghosty’s usage of “humanoid” is probably along the same lines as my usage of homo sapiens (without the rational soul.)
Prof 54:

For me, the question boils down to, "Do you believe that Genesis is God’s preserved divine account of creation or a human (however sincere) concoction?

All we can say about Genesis is that it is the creation story as revealed by God to the author. Genesis is revealed *spiritual *truth, it may not necessarily be a book of scientific facts. Let’s suppose that all of the major astronomers and cosmologists are correct about the origins of the universe - that it started with the “big bang” and that it took 5,000,000,000 years for us to get to where we are, and that humans evolved from lower lifeforms.

Should we call Genesis fictional if this were true? NO! Genesis is not fictional! This is because God revealed the spiritual truth about creation in a way the author of Genesis would understand. Newly discovered scientific facts will never contradict the spiritual truth of Genesis.
Prof 54:

The church has historically believed in a literal view of Genesis and that Adam and Eve were the first humans.

Yes, but don’t forget what I said a human is.
Prof 54:

If you question Adam and Eve then you must question all the other names in Genesis 5 and the table of nations in chapter 10. Further if “all scripture is given by God”(II Timothy 3:16) then it would be as Paul firmly believed that the Genesis account is trustworthy.

No one is claiming that Genesis is un-trustworthy. Science has since come up with new discoveries such as the fact that the Sun does not orbit the Earth. So, we have to come to grips with the fact that the Bible is not a science book.
Prof 54:

Remember that there could have been a hundred years before “in the course of time” Cain brought his offering. That is plenty of time to find a wife among his sisters and for a number of other women to be born.

This is possible. But would any parent let his daughter marry a known murderer?

 

[Ghosty]

Pprimeau1976 is correct about what I mean by “humanoid”. They would be genetically identical, so therefore biologically in the same species as humans. They would not be humans, though, because they would not have a human soul. I would add, though, that I don’t believe the human soul is a genetic trait; I don’t think it has any physical components or origin, and genes are physical by definition.

I would also add that while I don’t believe Genesis is a science book, I DO believe it is truth recorded in a style that was pertinant to the ancient listeners. For example, you can convey the truth about Satan very easy around the campfire by describing him as a snake, a creature which hides in the grasses and can strike and kill without warning as you go about your daily routine. For an illiterate culture, describing Satan as a snake is much better than describing him as a powerful, rational angelic being of the highest order who seeks to ruin the souls of men. They would also know by listening that the important element is not that Satan is really a snake, but that Satan is “snake-like”, has the pertinant characteristics of a snake as they relate to the story. Such cultures tend to not be so fixated on the literalistic facts, but more fixed on the fundamental truth, and they understand the difference (they did not go up to snakes and try to talk to them, for example, despite them repeating over and over the story of Genesis).

So in the mystical writings of Scripture, some truths are conveyed in images to better contain all the important facts. This doesn’t mean that Adam and Eve weren’t real, factual people who had a real, factual encounter with Satan which disrupted the whole course of human history. I believe they were two true individuals, the first two human beings, and that they really did sin against God and cause the fall of our race. Whether they literalistically ate a fruit, I doubt, because fruit conveys a meaning in this context beyond the actual growth of a tree, just as a snake is used to convey meanings beyond a factual account of an animal. I do believe their sin was real and personal, however, and that our whole relationship with the universe and God changed as a result.

Peace and God bless!

 

[lak611]

This is possible. But would any parent let his daughter marry a known murderer?

Maybe Adam was unaware of it.

 

[pprimeau1976]

But would any parent let his daughter marry a known murderer?

Maybe Adam was unaware of it.

I doubt it. Gen. 4:25 indicates that Eve knew about Cain killing Abel. So unless Adam was TOTALLY clueless, I think he knew.

There are four possibilities for Cain being able to have offspring:

1. He produced offspring with his mother

• Not likely, although Lot’s daughters did produce offspring with him (Gen. 19:30-38) they had to get him intoxicated in order for this to happen. So, I would say that it is out of the question. Furthermore, the text did say that he had relations with his wife. Eve could not be married to Adam and Cain at the same time.

1. He produced offspring with a sister.

• By sister, I mean daughter of Adam and Eve. This is possible, but consider that Cain and Abel were grown (we don’t really know their ages) but it is safe to say that they were older, for they both had a trade. (Gen. 4:2) Since Seth was the third child and no other children came until *after *Seth, it is unlikely that Cain would be banished to the land of Nod to be a wonderer and then come back from the East to see if his mom produced a daughter for him to procreate with. So option 2 is out, IMO.

1. He produced offspring with a half-sister

• This could be the likely scenario and this would not be incestuous back in the day. Gen, 5:4 mentions Adam having other sons and daughters, but it never stated that he had them with Eve. Adam could have reproduced with a homo-sapiens female and produced a daughter. This other woman would have appeared human, but she would have lacked a human soul.

You may ask how this can be acceptable if reproducing with a whole sister was unacceptable? Well, if you read (Gen. 20:12), Abraham and Sarah were half-siblings, as they shared the same father.
4) He produced offspring with a soul-less homo sapiens.

• I think that out of these scenarios, this is the most likely, given the timing and such. I feel sorry for Cain, since he would have been a husband to a wife that had no rational soul. My wife can be irrational with a soul. Imagine Cain’s wife!

 

[LilyM]

Are you saying that monogenism only applies when we’re talking about souls? I have always understood that it refers to the physical aspect as well as the spiritual.

Doesn’t apply to souls at all - we don’t inherit our souls!

 

[LJN21]

1. He produced offspring with a soul-less homo sapiens.

• I think that out of these scenarios, this is the most likely, given the timing and such. I feel sorry for Cain, since he would have been a husband to a wife that had no rational soul. My wife can be irrational with a soul. Imagine Cain’s wife!

[/INDENT]

So is this one of the many Adams that were running around or if there is only one Adam is it okay then for him to have sexual relations with animals? I thought he was married to Eve, or is that just part of the myth. I mean is he SO desperate to “do it” get goes to the closest thing that resembles a woman?

If it doesn’t have a soul is it capable of rational thought?

Do we know how much of our intellect is part of actually having a eternal soul?

I’m sorry but this whole idea of mating with other soulless humanoids is far more irrational and far fetched that Cain marring a sister or a half sister. I also find it amusing that people can toss out the majority of the story genesis as Myth and come up with something like this. Seems like people are going to great lengths to limit God interaction with creation and prove evolution.

 

[pprimeau1976]

So is this one of the many Adams that were running around or if there is only one Adam is it okay then for him to have sexual relations with animals?

The section you just quoted was about Cain, not Adam. And I really don’t know if it were a “sin” to have relations with an identical species.

LJN21:

I thought he was married to Eve, or is that just part of the myth.

Adam was married to Eve and yes it is part of the myth. I should note though that myths are nothing but a literary style. They can be fictional or non-fictional.

LJN21:

I mean is he SO desperate to “do it” get goes to the closest thing that resembles a woman?

I wouldn’t put it past him. His anger got the best of him when he killed his brother. I would imagine his libido would get the best of him too.

LJN21:

If it doesn’t have a soul is it capable of rational thought?

According to most theologians, no. That does not mean that it couldn’t make tools, etc., in order to hunt. That is not rational thought. Rational thought would be thinking about thinking.

LJN21:

Do we know how much of our intellect is part of actually having a eternal soul?

Do you want a percentage? I am not qualified to give an answer. I don’t think anyone is actually.

LJN21:

I’m sorry but this whole idea of mating with other soulless humanoids is far more irrational and far fetched that Cain marring a sister or a half sister.

Why? The only way for Cain to have a half sister is for Adam to be mating with a soul-less humanoid.

LJN21:

I also find it amusing that people can toss out the majority of the story genesis as Myth and come up with something like this.

That’s because you think that all myths are fiction and not truthful. Didn’t you ever watch Star Wars? Obi Wan Kenobi did not lie about Luke’s dad dying! He created a myth! How do you know that the writers of Genesis were writing from a “certain point of view?”

LJN21:

Seems like people are going to great lengths to limit God interaction with creation and prove evolution.

No, I have said NOTHING that contradicted Genesis. Do you care to explain who Cain was afraid of in Genesis 4:14? Or do you think he’s afraid his Mom and Dad will give him a spanking?

 

[LJN21]

The section you just quoted was about Cain, not Adam. And I really don’t know if it were a “sin” to have relations with an identical species.

Not having an immortal soul would in fact make them not identical species.

Adam was married to Eve and yes it is part of the myth. I should note though that myths are nothing but a literary style. They can be fictional or non-fictional.

I know what a myth is.

I wouldn’t put it past him. His anger got the best of him when he killed his brother. I would imagine his libido would get the best of him too.

Has it ever been known for a man to be able to reproduce form “relations” with another animal?

How do you know that a soul is inertited? I supposed it could have actually evolved too.

According to most theologians, no. That does not mean that it couldn’t make tools, etc., in order to hunt. That is not rational thought. Rational thought would be thinking about thinking.

Are you sure? Animals can use objects as tools, but to actually make tool? Have there ever been any observations of natural science of an animal making a tool?

Do you want a percentage? I am not qualified to give an answer. I don’t think anyone is actually.

Then how do we know we know its not our very souls that make us humanoid?

Why? The only way for Cain to have a half sister is for Adam to be mating with a soul-less humanoid.

Half sister was a bad term, how about Granddaughter of Adam and Even.

That’s because you think that all myths are fiction and not truthful. Didn’t you ever watch Star Wars? Obi Wan Kenobi did not lie about Luke’s dad dying! He created a myth!

yawn yes I’m aware of what a myth is… nice tone there…

How do you know that the writers of Genesis were writing from a “certain point of view?”

What makes you so sure that, the only thing worth believing in Genesis is some how God is responsible for giving us life?

No, I have said NOTHING that contradicted Genesis. Do you care to explain who Cain was afraid of in Genesis 4:14? Or do you think he’s afraid his Mom and Dad will give him a spanking?

None of what you said is remotely supported in Genesis either.

Yeah that’s it, his daddy was going to get out the belt and spank him on the bear behind gotta love condescension.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Not having an immortal soul would in fact make them not identical species.

That’s where the realm of science and religion depart. At least in modern zoology, the presence of a soul is not considered.

LJN21:

know what a myth is.

Sorry if you were insulted, you sounded as if you were among the many people that confuse mythology and fiction.

LJN21:

Has it ever been known for a man to be able to reproduce form “relations” with another animal?

Scientifically speaking, yes. You and I are considered by scientists to be animals of the species homo sapiens. But, we are also more than animal, we are human - a homo sapiens with a soul.

LJN21:

How do you know that a soul is inertited? I supposed it could have actually evolved too.

I see the soul as spiritual matter, just like God is spiritual matter. When Genesis said that we were made in the *image and likeness *of God, I think it was that we are spiritual beings, or beings with the soul. So, I guess the soul is not inherited, the soul is given by God at the moment of conception.

LJN21:

Are you sure? Animals can use objects as tools, but to actually make tool? Have there ever been any observations of natural science of an animal making a tool?

Chimpanzees have been known to take a twig off of a tree and stick it in termite mounds and then eat the termites that were on the twig. Though primitive, the chimpanzee was using an eating utensil. However, I did define rational thought as thinking about thinking. For example, I don’t think any other animal “brainstorms” or sets out to “brainstorm” about something.

LJN21:

Then how do we know we know its not our very souls that make us humanoid?

Huh? We’re not humanoids we are humans. A human is a homo sapiens with a soul and a humanoid is just a *homo-sapiens *in this hypothetical scenario.

LJN21:

Half sister was a bad term, how about Granddaughter of Adam and Even.

That would still be a bad term. The granddaughter of Adam and Eve would be Cain’s niece.

yawn yes I’m aware of what a myth is… nice tone there…

Sorry about the tone. You sounded as if you thought that all myths were fictional. Many myths are based on truth, which is why I brought up Star Wars.

LJN21:

What makes you so sure that, the only thing worth believing in Genesis is some how God is responsible for giving us life?

That’s not what I believe and you just assumed that, just as I assumed that you did not know what a myth was. Your tone is nice as well, by the way, maybe even nicer.

LJN21:

None of what you said is remotely supported in Genesis either.

Nor was it contradicted.

LJN21:

Yeah that’s it, his daddy was going to get out the belt and spank him on the bear behind

I wasn’t being condescending. But assuming that the population was 3 at the time, including himself, what or who was Cain afraid of? My hypothesis is that he was afraid of those who looked like him.

 

[pprimeau1976]

There are essentially three options regarding Genesis.

1. Take only the Biblical timeline seriously. Take the Genesis myth as scientific fact and just assume that all the fossils and bones of the other species were in fact placed there by God when he created the Earth. Why he would do this is anyone
   s guess. Cain would have to wait for his sister to be born and if the sister did not have a twin sister, he would have to contend with Seth because there would be two boys and one girl.
2. Do not take the Biblical timeline seriously and only take the fossill record seriously and suggest that Adam was the first homo-sapiens and the first human. This would mean that Adam was born 200,000 years ago. Cain would reason to fear being hurt, as another specied of hominids, *homo-neanderthalis, *may have been mistaken by Cain to be another human. However, in this scenario, Cain would most likely have taken a wife from his own species, therefore, his own sister. However, he would have to wait until Eve bore one. Additionally, he would have to contend with Seth for a female if she didn’t bear twin girls. However, it is possible that Cain took on a neanderthal female as a wife, though I don’t know if it would have been scientifically possible.
3. Take the Biblical timeline seriously and the fossill record seriously. That would mean that there had to be other homo-sapiens at the time of Adam. Adam was the first homo-sapiens made in the image and likeness of God, therefore the first man and human.

I just thought of a reason for God giving the mark to Cain. Maybe it was to protect Cain from Seth in the event that the first girl born from Eve was NOT a twin.

 

[LJN21]

There are essentially three options regarding Genesis.

1. Take only the Biblical timeline seriously. Take the Genesis myth as scientific fact and just assume that all the fossils and bones of the other species were in fact placed there by God when he created the Earth. Why he would do this is anyone
   s guess. Cain would have to wait for his sister to be born and if the sister did not have a twin sister, he would have to contend with Seth because there would be two boys and one girl.
2. Do not take the Biblical timeline seriously and only take the fossill record seriously and suggest that Adam was the first homo-sapiens and the first human. This would mean that Adam was born 200,000 years ago. Cain would reason to fear being hurt, as another specied of hominids, *homo-neanderthalis, *may have been mistaken by Cain to be another human. However, in this scenario, Cain would most likely have taken a wife from his own species, therefore, his own sister. However, he would have to wait until Eve bore one. Additionally, he would have to contend with Seth for a female if she didn’t bear twin girls. However, it is possible that Cain took on a neanderthal female as a wife, though I don’t know if it would have been scientifically possible.
3. Take the Biblical timeline seriously and the fossill record seriously. That would mean that there had to be other homo-sapiens at the time of Adam. Adam was the first homo-sapiens made in the image and likeness of God, therefore the first man and human.

I just thought of a reason for God giving the mark to Cain. Maybe it was to protect Cain from Seth in the event that the first girl born from Eve was NOT a twin.

I could come up with all sorts of nice stories not contradicted by Genesis but that doesn’t make them right.

The Bible says Adam lived to be 900+ years old. Is that figurative or not? Is the person of Adam a literal person?

The bible says Cain was the son of Adam. Is that figurative or not? Why take the person of Cain literally?

How do we know this isn’t just the authors interpretation of why some people are culturally and physically different?

The protect thing is really amusing. Maybe his other siblings were going to kill him for what he did to Able. There is no age on how old they were when this happened.

 

[pprimeau1976]

I could come up with all sorts of nice stories not contradicted by Genesis but that doesn’t make them right.

I never claimed that anything was right. I only speculated as to what was likely. Until the Church says that that the Genesis creation account conveys “how it happened” in addition to “why it happened”, I am allowed to speculate.

LJN21:

The Bible says Adam lived to be 900+ years old. Is that figurative or not? Is the person of Adam a literal person?

Of course he is a literal person. There was a first human. That man is known as Adam.

As to whether lived to be 900, is another matter. I am unsure whether to take this literally or not. The reason is that we don’t know definitively how the Torah came about or whether we have the same Torah that Moses traditionally wrote. The link will take you to a Wikipedia article. The exactness of the ages would depend on how it was passed down. If the Torah is rooted in oral tradition, are we to assume that the ages of Adam were passed down accurately? Are we to assume that the years were 365 days long or shorter? Also, are we to assume that the translations of scriptures are without error?

LJN21:

The bible says Cain was the son of Adam. Is that figurative or not? Why take the person of Cain literally?

I take the person of Cain literally because there had to have been a first murder. I see no reason to say that Cain did not exist.

LJN21:

How do we know this isn’t just the authors interpretation of why some people are culturally and physically different?

The story of Cain does not explain this. The story of the Tower of Babel explains this.

LJN21:

The protect thing is really amusing. Maybe his other siblings were going to kill him for what he did to Able. There is no age on how old they were when this happened.

You are right, there is no age specified, the only clue given is that Cain and Able were workers. It could be that Cain and Able were teenagers. Cain’s reaction to God calling him out certainly was teenager-like.

 

[Spirithound]

Hardly. It’s saying that we naturally come from Adam, period. That doesn’t mean that our genes come only from Adam, since the human nature is the rational soul united to a body, and that comes from Adam alone even if the material of the body doesn’t.

Humani Generis:

For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all

My sticking point is that Humani Generis says Adam was the “first parent.” If there were other non-humans adding to the gene pool, then they are also first parents.