I'm confused. Matthew 1:24-25

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Thank you, again, for your concern. I have indeed read Catholicism for Dummies, as well as the Catechism and about 100 other books about the Catholic faith. There are parts of our Catholic faith that speak to the depths of my soul. There are other parts that are not quite so compelling. Mary’s perpetual virginity is of the later category, I’m afraid. So be it.

Peace.
Maybe someday you will understand and appreciate what the saints understood about this person who is unique in all creation and uniquely instrumental in our salvation. Maybe you will encounter Mary and know her as mother and queen as the Church has for all ages, and maybe you won’t. So be it.
 
Matthew is trying to establish that there’s no way that Joseph was Jesus’ natural father, so he’s pointing out that there was no physical intercourse between Mary and Joseph prior to Jesus’ birth.

Moreover, the word in the original Greek implies only that “up until” that time there was no intercourse; the usage of that preposition doesn’t imply anything at all about what happened after (which we, as Catholics, assert that there continued to be no physical intercourse between Mary and Joseph).

Hope that helps!

(Edited to add:) Oh – and the explicit mention that Joseph named him Jesus is relevant, too… the legal father of a child had the right to name the child (take a look at the story of John the Baptist’s birth). So, Matthew is saying both that Joseph was not Jesus’ natural father and that Joseph was his (adoptive / legal) father – in other words, there was no other man in the picture who could claim (human) fatherhood…
The only name allowed in heaven the kingdom of life the kingdom of Father the creator is the name only begotten son of God which is your DNA, your soul is the DNA and it has not other name that the only begotten son of God [only human being in the planet] get it?
 
Again, the word “until” can confuse some people. Here is another example in Matthew 28:20. When Jesus says He will be with us “until” the end of the world, “until” refers to the past only; it doesn’t mean Jesus won’t be with us after the end of the world.
You are Jesus yourself, this is what it means I will be with you until the end of the world, after the end of the world you will be with Father the creator as his only begotten son DNA in the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of life. or after the end of the world you will be in the kingdom of hell the kingdom of the second death. the eternal torment.

It is your choice and yours only read John 1:12 DNA 3:16 DNA and your DNA.
 
(Edited for clarity, as I understand what you’re trying to say:)
The only name allowed in heaven, the kingdom of life – the kingdom of Father the creator – is the name “only begotten son of God” (which is your DNA – your soul is the DNA and it has no other name than “the only begotten son of God”, who is only human being in the planet). get it?
:eek: Wow…

No, I don’t get it. And, I would suggest that this isn’t a belief that’s in concert with the teachings of the Catholic Church (nor is your following post, in which you assert “you are Jesus yourself”).

If I’ve misunderstood you, perhaps you can clarify. Otherwise, I’ll keep you in prayer…
 
THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH – THE ROMAN UNIVERSAL EMPIRE USING THE NAME OF THE FATHER THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN VAIN. VIRGIN SAINTS CHRIST = 6 6 6, THE MARK OF THE BEAST.

The virgins: there are no virgins in heaven only good*souls and angels,same with the saints there are not saints in heaven only good souls and angels,and none of them is going to saveor help anyone,

Let me explain; if any good soul or angelin heavencome to THE FATHER and askhim to help anyone’s personhe is going to be told: why do you want me to help this person, you know the rules everyone is for his own soul, and if he needs help why don’t he ask me for himself,*is he afraid of me, ashamed or don’t trust me? besides under my will every soul is equal, with reason, common sense and will power to come here on his own, go and keep being an angel and living happily ever after.

So virgins, saints and angels is a no no. Now THE SON; he is not hanging on the cross but closer to you than you think- someone for some reasonhas beenkeeping*him hanging there all this time, now Jesus is the name given to the world for humanity to know who the messiah is, the verb, the word and will of God [good, truth, light] =*THE HOLLY SPIRIT.

Jesus Christthe savior, is not hanging and holding those nails any more, and ifHe’s hangingup there why don’t you give the poor guy a hand and help your soul at the same time, see what you cando to help the poor guy, remember this: is nothing someone can’t do tosave your soul,but what you mustdo tosave yourself,

He said: no everyone*[meaning none] who calls me lord lord or Christ Christ will enter the kingdom of heaven [the kingdom of life], but all those who dothe will of myFATHER who is in heaven.

So virginsaintsChrist = 6 6 6 the mark of the beast or mark of the devil. I think you all know what this means, if you do not know find out, remember you have a grain of mustard inside your heart this is your soul use it or lose it, every single living*creature on the planet is on its own, love, wisdom and power is inside your heart and this is the only way to THE FATHER.

Remember; only those clean at heart will see God.
I will explain Christ and the cross to you, Jesus the messiah is the one who was send by father with the good news of repentance, forgiveness of sins and redemption, [the grace of God], is called the gospel and new testament, Jesus is the name given to humanity, for humanity to know he is the one, the messiah, the name Jesus meant; Judah, making Jesus king of the tribe of Judah and king of kings, when the messiah become the messenger, teacher, savior, martyr sacrifice and resurrection He become the Christ,

remember his words everything had been accomplished, he represent the son of God which is you, Christ represent you, and you should imitate him, if you believe in the cross you are keeping your soul hanging and holding those nails, is called slavery and bondage underdeceit.

Religion have absolutely nothing to do with faith, faith is the soul of humanity looking for its origin purpose of existence and its creator, this is inside every human heart, religion is confusion.

Jezebel the prophetess = Babel, Babel = Babylon, Babylon = confusion, Babylon the great = the great confusion, the great confusion = the great harlot, the great harlot = the great City, the great City = Religion, Religion = deceit, doubt and confusion = Mystery.*

All religions on the planet put together is called Mystery, Babylonthe great = the great harlot = the great City.

Look for this word and use reason and common sense, the will power or free will is for you to decide heaven or hell, eternal life or eternal torment, [the second death].
 
(Edited for clarity, as I understand what you’re trying to say:)

:eek: Wow…

No, I don’t get it. And, I would suggest that this isn’t a belief that’s in concert with the teachings of the Catholic Church (nor is your following post, in which you assert “you are Jesus yourself”).

If I’ve misunderstood you, perhaps you can clarify. Otherwise, I’ll keep you in prayer…
If you don’t get it, then wake up the sooner the better.

I am not here to play a concert to nor with anybody,

You mean the Roman universal empire?

There is two kinds of creatures in existence the only begotten son of Father the creator DNA or the children of the devil the rest of humanity your body is the church, the temple and the house of worship.

Let me see: if Jesus the Christ is the only begotten son of god, and the only way, truth and life to be saved, then any human being who wants or needs to be saved must become like Jesus the Christ, and I meant literally become the Christ.

Again: wake up the sooner the better.
 
If you don’t get it, then wake up the sooner the better.
Oh. Now I get it. :sad_yes:

When I saw your religion listed as “catholic”, I thought that meant “Catholic”. Now I see that I was mistaken.

I’ll still be praying for you…
 
Oh. Now I get it. :sad_yes:

When I saw your religion listed as “catholic”, I thought that meant “Catholic”. Now I see that I was mistaken.

I’ll still be praying for you…
He’s reported. Both disrespectful posts, as well as agendas are prohibited under forum rules.
 
onlyvoice;8884415:
Please reread what I wrote in the previous post and to put it in a practical context think about it in terms of Mary being what Protestants say she is, just another woman.

If a young woman today or a hundred years ago was ready to marry and move into her husband’s home and begin normal married life she would wonder about what that would bring. Would she and her husband have children, how many, what would they be like? She would be anticipating marriage and family. If an angel appeared to speak with her to tell her something about what was ahead, anticipating a normal natural marriage and informed her of a son to be born to her it is inconceivable that she would think her husband would not be the father.
You have a point. However, that is not the only possible reaction. When you examine how Mary responded (“How can this be since I do not know a man?”), you can see that she understood the angel’s announcement to mean she would conceive before she would “know” Joseph. She was like saying, “How can I conceive when I am still [at this present time] a virgin?”

Now, why not examine your position where an engaged Mary was not expecting to have children because of a vow of perpetual virginity? What would be her natural reaction to an angel’s announcement that she would conceive? Would she say, “How can this be since I do not know a man?” Of course, not. Her normal natural reaction would be to say, “How can this be when I will remain a virgin?” Or, “How can this be since I will not know my husband?”

What you are postulating here is that there were no plans to consummate the marriage in sexual union from the very beginning because Mary had a vow of perpetual virginity. But that is not what the Scriptures record. Notice: “When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost” (Matt. 1:18).

Were they going to “come together?” That’s what it says on that Scripture. However, before they came together, Mary was already found with child.
 
grandfather;8893644:
You have a point. However, that is not the only possible reaction. When you examine how Mary responded (“How can this be since I do not know a man?”), you can see that she understood the angel’s announcement to mean she would conceive before she would “know” Joseph. She was like saying, “How can I conceive when I am still [at this present time] a virgin?”

Now, why not examine your position where an engaged Mary was not expecting to have children because of a vow of perpetual virginity? What would be her natural reaction to an angel’s announcement that she would conceive? Would she say, “How can this be since I do not know a man?” Of course, not. Her normal natural reaction would be to say, “How can this be when I will remain a virgin?” Or, “How can this be since I will not know my husband?”.
When she said I know not man she was saying how can this be since I do not have sex with anyone Joseph included. Your demand that it be said in a certain way does not explain why she didn’t say I know not Joseph. Her natural reaction would not to say that she had sex with no one but that she and Joseph didn’t have sex.
What you are postulating here is that there were no plans to consummate the marriage in sexual union from the very beginning because Mary had a vow of perpetual virginity. But that is not what the Scriptures record. Notice: “When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost” (Matt. 1:18).

Were they going to “come together?” That’s what it says on that Scripture. However, before they came together, Mary was already found with child.

This is from Matthew who was stressing that it was the first part of marriage and they were not living together. It was to emphasis that Jesus was not Josephs father. It does not address that Mary had made a vow. The question Mary ask is strange and you have not explained it. Why would a woman who was married state that she knows not man not that she knows not her husband but man?
 
grandfather;8893644:
You have a point. However, that is not the only possible reaction. When you examine how Mary responded (“How can this be since I do not know a man?”), you can see that she understood the angel’s announcement to mean she would conceive before she would “know” Joseph. She was like saying, “How can I conceive when I am still [at this present time] a virgin?”

Now, why not examine your position where an engaged Mary was not expecting to have children because of a vow of perpetual virginity? What would be her natural reaction to an angel’s announcement that she would conceive? Would she say, “How can this be since I do not know a man?” Of course, not. Her normal natural reaction would be to say, “How can this be when I will remain a virgin?” Or, “How can this be since I will not know my husband?”

What you are postulating here is that there were no plans to consummate the marriage in sexual union from the very beginning because Mary had a vow of perpetual virginity. But that is not what the Scriptures record. Notice: “When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph before they came together, she was found with child
of the Holy Ghost” (Matt. 1:18).

Were they going to “come together?” That’s what it says on that Scripture. However, before they came together, Mary was already found with child. What you are missing here is almost 2,000 years of Christian belief in her perpetual virginity, based upon who she is. Upon whom Jesus designed her to be. Created her to be. This was passed on, handed down, like scripture, from those who were there.

You missed that she declared herself to be the “bond slave” of the Lord - Jesus Himself. This is explicit in scripture, and borne out by the fact that she was with Jesus from virgin womb to virgin tomb.

Are you saying that she violated her vow before the Lord?

The questioning of Mary’s virginity; the lowering of her place in salvation history, is a relatively recent and sudden introduction to Christianity. Which created being would do such a thing?
 
What you are missing here is almost 2,000 years of Christian belief in her perpetual virginity, based upon who she is. Upon whom Jesus designed her to be. Created her to be. This was passed on, handed down, like scripture, from those who were there.

You missed that she declared herself to be the “bond slave” of the Lord - Jesus Himself. This is explicit in scripture, and borne out by the fact that she was with Jesus from virgin womb to virgin tomb.

Are you saying that she violated her vow before the Lord?

The questioning of Mary’s virginity; the lowering of her place in salvation history, is a relatively recent and sudden introduction to Christianity. Which created being would do such a thing?
The primitive church of the apostles never taught of Mary’s perpetual virginity. This is not a part of the “faith once delivered.” In fact the earliest evidence for this teaching appeared only in the latter part of the 4th century in the writings of Jerome.
 
The primitive church of the apostles never taught of Mary’s perpetual virginity. This is not a part of the “faith once delivered.” In fact the earliest evidence for this teaching appeared only in the latter part of the 4th century in the writings of Jerome.
Even Paul did not teach the doctrine of the trinity. Yet, you believe it. Why? It’s not explicit in scripture, or in believed in the “primitive Church”

I firmly expect you to not watch this 11 minute video:

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

If you do watch it, you will then know why the various Eastern Orthodox Churches, as well as the various rites of the Catholic Church, have always venerated Mary. Worshipped? No. Venerated.
 
The primitive church of the apostles never taught of Mary’s perpetual virginity. This is not a part of the “faith once delivered.” In fact the earliest evidence for this teaching appeared only in the latter part of the 4th century in the writings of Jerome.
Please do yourself a favor and spend 11 minutes watching the scriptural references. Even though you will disagree, and will not be convinced, you will see the reasons for Catholic and Orthodox belief.
 
grandfather;8893644:
You have a point. However, that is not the only possible reaction. When you examine how Mary responded (“How can this be since I do not know a man?”), you can see that she understood the angel’s announcement to mean she would conceive before she would “know” Joseph. She was like saying, “How can I conceive when I am still [at this present time] a virgin?”

Now, why not examine your position where an engaged Mary was not expecting to have children because of a vow of perpetual virginity? What would be her natural reaction to an angel’s announcement that she would conceive? Would she say, “How can this be since I do not know a man?” Of course, not. Her normal natural reaction would be to say, “How can this be when I will remain a virgin?” Or, “How can this be since I will not know my husband?”

What you are postulating here is that there were no plans to consummate the marriage in sexual union from the very beginning because Mary had a vow of perpetual virginity. But that is not what the Scriptures record. Notice: “When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph before they came together, she was found with child
of the Holy Ghost” (Matt. 1:18).

Were they going to “come together?” That’s what it says on that Scripture. However, before they came together, Mary was already found with child.

I suggest you read all the objections and replies. Concern reply 5, it is good rebuttal but we can prove it undeniable, by scripture alone, that the “brothers and sister” were of other mothers.

Summa Theologica III, 24, a3

Objection 1. It would seem that Christ’s Mother did not remain a virgin after His Birth. For it is written (Matthew 1:18): “Before Joseph and Mary came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.” Now the Evangelist would not have said this–“before they came together”–unless he were certain of their subsequent coming together; for no one says of one who does not eventually dine “before he dines” (cf. Jerome, Contra Helvid.). It seems, therefore, that the Blessed Virgin subsequently had intercourse with Joseph; and consequently that she did not remain a virgin after (Christ’s) Birth.

On the contrary, It is written (Ezekiel 44:2): “This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it; because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it.” Expounding these words, Augustine says in a sermon (De Annunt. Dom. iii): “What means this closed gate in the House of the Lord, except that Mary is to be ever inviolate? What does it mean that ‘no man shall pass through it,’ save that Joseph shall not know her? And what is this–‘The Lord alone enters in and goeth out by it’–except that the Holy Ghost shall impregnate her, and that the Lord of angels shall be born of her? And what means this–‘it shall be shut for evermore’–but that Mary is a virgin before His Birth, a virgin in His Birth, and a virgin after His Birth?”

I answer that, Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ’s Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children. For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ’s perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.

Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose “shrine” was the virginal womb “Sacrarium Spiritus Sancti” (Office of B. M. V., Ant. ad Benedictus, T. P.), wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.

Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God’s Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.

Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel’s revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.

We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards.

Reply to Objection 1. As Jerome says (Contra Helvid. i): “Although this particle ‘before’ often indicates a subsequent event, yet we must observe that it not infrequently points merely to some thing previously in the mind: nor is there need that what was in the mind take place eventually, since something may occur to prevent its happening. Thus if a man say: ‘Before I dined in the port, I set sail,’ we do not understand him to have dined in port after he set sail: but that his mind was set on dining in port.” In like manner the evangelist says: “Before they came together” Mary “was found with child, of the Holy Ghost,” not that they came together afterwards: but that, when it seemed that they would come together, this was forestalled through her conceiving by the Holy Ghost, the result being that afterwards they did not come together.
 
Even Paul did not teach the doctrine of the trinity. Yet, you believe it. Why? It’s not explicit in scripture, or in believed in the “primitive Church”
I happen not to believe in the Trinity as well for the same reason.
 
Please do yourself a favor and spend 11 minutes watching the scriptural references. Even though you will disagree, and will not be convinced, you will see the reasons for Catholic and Orthodox belief.
Thank you. I watched the video but I’m not convinced.
 
grandfather;8893644:
You have a point. However, that is not the only possible reaction. When you examine how Mary responded (“How can this be since I do not know a man?”), .
I just want to point out that the English translation is not really an accurate reflection of the Greek which had no indefinite pronouns. No “a.”

What she said according to Scripture is “How can this be since I know no man.”

The verb “know” is present, active, indicative.

Carry on.
 
The primitive church of the apostles never taught of Mary’s perpetual virginity. This is not a part of the “faith once delivered.” In fact the earliest evidence for this teaching appeared only in the latter part of the 4th century in the writings of Jerome.
Your facts are in error.

Origen [185-254 AD] Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book X)
“The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity” (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).

Lactantius [290-350 AD] The Epitome of the Divine Institutes
“We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary” (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).

Hilary of Poitiers, St [300-367 AD] On the Councils, or the Faith of the Easterns
“If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate” (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).

Athanasius, St [296-373 AD] Discourse II Against the Arians
“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

Ambrose of Milan, St [340-397 AD] Letter 63
“Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son” (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).

Where is a list of what the early Church believed? What do you consider the “early” Church?
I am assuming you also do not believe in the Divinity of Jesus?
 
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