I'm confused. Matthew 1:24-25

[razredge]

Instead of doubting, why not begin studying? Read into the doctrine. Pray over it. Go before our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and ask Him to grant you peace regarding Church teaching on His mother. If we do not constantly seek the truth, we do not serve the truth.

Ironically, it was the studying that led me to first realise that things are not as simple as they seem.

I constantly seek the truth, if I didn’t I wouldn’t be on here arguing with you as I’d just have blindly accepted what many Catholics believe.

 

[po18guy]

Ironically, it was the studying that led me to first realise that things are not as simple as they seem.

I constantly seek the truth, if I didn’t I wouldn’t be on here arguing with you as I’d just have blindly accepted what many Catholics believe.

You are having a crisis of faith, it would appear. What is causing you to believe the Church on some things and doubt on others? The devil’s main weapon is doubt.He first used it in Genesis 3, which has great applicability to this thread, actually. You seem almost resentful. Why?

 

[razredge]

You are having a crisis of faith, it would appear. What is causing you to believe the Church on some things and doubt on others? The devil’s main weapon is doubt.He first used it in Genesis 3, which has great applicability to this thread, actually. You seem almost resentful. Why?

Actually, if anything my faith is stronger now that at probably any other point in my life, since I have other reasons for belieiving in God besides ‘the Church says so’ or ‘the Bible says so’ which used to be the entire basis for my faith.

I’m not resentful, I just think a lot of believers are too focused on unimportant minituae (which they endlessly argue about with other believers) and fail to see the big picture which is so much grander.

 

[po18guy]

Actually, if anything my faith is stronger now that at probably any other point in my life, since I have other reasons for belieiving in God besides ‘the Church says so’ or ‘the Bible says so’ which used to be the entire basis for my faith.

I’m not resentful, I just think a lot of believers are too focused on unimportant minituae (which they endlessly argue about with other believers) and fail to see the big picture which is so much grander.

I will grant you that the big things are the most important. However, the faith is such a rich tapestry that its details can never be known in their entirety in one lifetime. To see the complexity of God’s plan for our salvation necessarily includes all that has been revealed to man. There are, for example, only hints that God is One in three Divine Persons. The Church had to develop this by revelation. It is not explicit, by any means, from the bible. In accepting certain doctrines of the Church, yet having trouble with others, just make sure that you are not straining out the gnat while swallowing the camel. Revealed truth is a seamless garment.

So, you have faith? In Whom and why? Because at some point, somewhere, to someone, the “Church said so.” The Church has repeated this for almost two millennia now, and for our eternal benefit. Consider that you are blessed to have a Church to ‘say so’, as millions struggle for meaning with their bibles and can never be sure if they are correct. Sure, they may very well be saved in the long run, but Christ came that we might have life - and have it in abundance (John 10:10). Jesus did not leave us orphans. He left a Church, guidedf by the Holy Spirit, to teach us.

If Mary is a small detail to you, she certainly was not to our Lord, Who first conceived of her, then created her for the singular honor of giving flesh to His Son. She remained with Him from virgin womb to virgin tomb. There is no biblical (or other) record of her doing anything else. She declared herself to be the “bond slave” of the Lord. She placed no qualifiers upon her statment, and no time limit. .

 

[razredge]

I think you’ll agree that there are three possibilities on the authority of the Church:

1. The Church is right on absolutely everything
2. The Church is right on many things but not everything
3. The Church is not right on anything.

I feel the evidence compels me to believe 2 and not 1. I don’t see the false dichotomy where either everything the Church says is true or nothing it says is true.

Jesus has faith that the Church will accomplish its mission despite the occasional stumble here and there.

 

[Gorgias]

I think you’ll agree that there are three possibilities on the authority of the Church:

1. The Church is right on absolutely everything
2. The Church is right on many things but not everything
3. The Church is not right on anything.

I feel the evidence compels me to believe 2 and not 1. I don’t see the false dichotomy where either everything the Church says is true or nothing it says is true.

Jesus has faith that the Church will accomplish its mission despite the occasional stumble here and there.

“The Church” is a little vague. Let’s try to be a little more specific, and see if it helps:

1. The people who are the leaders of the Church are right on absolutely everything.
2. The people who are the leaders of the Church are right on many things, but not everything.
3. The people who are the leaders of the Church are not right on anything.

Can you handle substituting these three statements for your original three statements?

 

[razredge]

“The Church” is a little vague. Let’s try to be a little more specific, and see if it helps:

1. The people who are the leaders of the Church are right on absolutely everything.
2. The people who are the leaders of the Church are right on many things, but not everything.
3. The people who are the leaders of the Church are not right on anything.

Can you handle substituting these three statements for your original three statements?

Yes

 

[Gorgias]

“The Church” is a little vague. Let’s try to be a little more specific, and see if it helps:

1. The people who are the leaders of the Church are right on absolutely everything.
2. The people who are the leaders of the Church are right on many things, but not everything.
3. The people who are the leaders of the Church are not right on anything.

Can you handle substituting these three statements for your original three statements?

Yes

Cool! Ok, then: that means that you agree with the statement “the people who are the leaders of the Church are right on many things, but not everything”. Awesome! That’s exactly what the Church says, too!

If Christ founded the Church, is it too much to hope that He might protect it in certain ways? (Not all ways – after all, we’re still just humans – but in certain important ways.)

So, then, we’re left with a pretty well-defined, limiting statement: the leaders of the Church aren’t necessarily right about everything they say; however, if, under certain conditions, particular leaders – in the exercise of their office(s) – make pronouncements about “faith and morals”, then we say that we believe that God protects them from errors in doctrine. fair enough?

 

[razredge]

Cool! Ok, then: that means that you agree with the statement “the people who are the leaders of the Church are right on many things, but not everything”. Awesome! That’s exactly what the Church says, too!

If Christ founded the Church, is it too much to hope that He might protect it in certain ways? (Not all ways – after all, we’re still just humans – but in certain important ways.)

Yes of course, if they weren’t right on many things would I be Catholic?

And Christ did promise that the Church will never fail, so I believe that too.
However the Church might well accomplish God’s mission while not being right on everything all the time - indeed it’s clear that as the centuries pass we’ve grown in a greater understanding of God, theology and scripture.

So, then, we’re left with a pretty well-defined, limiting statement: the leaders of the Church aren’t necessarily right about everything they say; however, if, under certain conditions, particular leaders – in the exercise of their office(s) – make pronouncements about “faith and morals”, then we say that we believe that God protects them from errors in doctrine. fair enough?

Well, I’d think that depends on how important a particular doctrine is to God’s plan and his mission for the Church, perhaps things like the perpetual virginity of Mary are not important and so God doesn’t care what people think either way.

 

[adrift]

I would refine the statements furtner

“The Church” is a little vague. Let’s try to be a little more specific, and see if it helps:

1. The people who are the leaders of the Church are right on absolutely everything concerning faith and morals
2. The people who are the leaders of the Church are right on many things, but not everything concerning faith and morals
3. The people who are the leaders of the Church are not right on anything concerning faith and morals

However the Church might well accomplish God’s mission while not being right on everything all the time - indeed it’s clear that as the centuries pass we’ve grown in a greater understanding of God, theology and scripture.

The Church is always right it is the falible human that is not. The Church has never declared a matter of faith and morals that wasn’t right.