I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[LilyM]

I never referred to spousal love or that love afforded to our children…that is your comparison…and a totally off the mark one. I am referring to the “spiritual” devotion/veneration/adoration that is supposedly to be “different” with regards to Mary as to what is offered to God the Father AND the Holy Spirit AND Jesus.

Are you saying our love for our spouses and children is never spiritual, never a complete self-giving, never resembles in many respects SOME of what we offer to God?

Guess what, that love DOES resemble some of what we offer to God - it does so every time we go beyond merely loving others for their good looks, bank balances, cooking ability or other mundane characteristics. And so it should, it all stems from its source - the God who IS love.

The old wedding vows used to make this resemblance very explicit - they included the line ‘with my body I thee WORSHIP’.

Love can be expressed, rightly if perhaps a little hyperbolically, to be an act of worship. We learn to love God by loving others, including Mary, and again, all love for Mary leads us to, and is inspired by, God - by His love for her and His desire to have us love her as He does (which is totally and unreservedly, as only God can love).

What we offer God is SACRIFICE - the sacrifice being the Mass, the one perfect and only necessary sacrifice instituted by Christ. That’s the crucial distinction between what we offer to God, and Him alone, the one thing that must only be offered to the Deity, and all the love, affection, self-denial and self-offering (even complete self-offering) that can be given to spouse, children - and Mary.

 

[ralphinal]

Originally Posted by Leeann
You can’t serve two masters - if you “consecrate” yourself completely to JESUS - then it’s done…why bother going elsewhere and by what right does Mary have to “us” - our whole beings??? These prayers to Mary aren’t simply asking her to intercede and present petitions to Jesus…they’re elevating her to HIS position…giving her what is to be given to HIM alone.

Again…this is not an “earthly” thing we are dealing with, it is “spiritual” and by consecrating your whole being to Jesus…that’s it…it’s done…wholely,completely…acknowledging the fact that He is capable and able and willing to do all that we ask if we truly believe in Him and trust Him and obey Him.

I repeat,these prayers to Mary aren’t simply asking her to intercede and present petitions to Jesus…they’re elevating her to HIS position…giving her what is to be given to HIM alone.

Peace and God Bless

If I ask you to pray for me, will you tell me that there is one mediator between GOd and Man and that you are not he?

 

[Leeann]

Are you saying our love for our spouses and children is never spiritual, never a complete self-giving, never resembles in many respects SOME of what we offer to God?
I said it is different…it may “resemble” some of what we offer to God…but you really know what I mean.

Guess what, that love DOES resemble some of what we offer to God - it does so every time we go beyond merely loving others for their good looks, bank balances, cooking ability or other mundane characteristics. And so it should, it all stems from its source - the God who IS love.
You’re preaching to the choir here!

The old wedding vows used to make this resemblance very explicit - they included the line ‘with my body I thee WORSHIP’.

Love can be expressed, rightly if perhaps a little hyperbolically, to be an act of worship. We learn to love God by loving others, including Mary, ( we don’t even know the meaning of what love really is until we know God - and then we **really **start to love others) and again, all love for Mary leads us to, and is inspired by, God - by His love for her and His desire to have us love her as He does (which is totally and unreservedly, as only God can love).

What we offer God is SACRIFICE - the sacrifice being the Mass, the one perfect and only necessary sacrifice instituted by Christ. That’s the crucial distinction between what we offer to God, and Him alone, the one thing that must only be offered to the Deity, and all the love, affection, self-denial and self-offering (even complete self-offering) that can be given to spouse, children - and Mary.

This is all very nice, but has nothing to do with the prayers I posted or the scripture I posted as a reply to the “topic” above.

Peace and God Bless

 

[Leeann]

Leeann;4225838:

Mary had the whole person of Jesus in her womb. He was safe there.
and the point is???

God only does what is His will to do. So, I disagree with you that we can ask Jesus for anything and all we need to do is believe in Him and trust Him and obey Him for the granting of prayer petitions. In fact, Mary said “be it according to your will” so- I will let her correct you.
I knew as I typed this that SOMEONE would grab it and desparately run with it…but I was just popping in and trying to post quickly…hoping that people would have the sense to know what I meant…so thank you notsmart for pointing out the obvious.

How are catholics elevating Mary to HIS position by continually reminding people she is created and not divine? Hardly giving her what is His. Catholics do not teach that Mary comes to judge the living and the dead, and Catholics don’t teach that she is in the Eucharist but rather it is Jesus in the Eucharist.

Read it again:

Act of Oblation to the Blessed Virgin Mary

My Queen! my Mother!
I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self.
Wherefore, O loving Mother,
as I am thine own,
keep me, defend me,
as thy property and possession.
Amen.

Peace (I don’t give blessings for God)

Peace and God Bless

 

[Leeann]

If I ask you to pray for me, will you tell me that there is one mediator between GOd and Man and that you are not he?

What does that have to do with the prayers that I posted, the consecration of a person’s whole being to Mary instead of to Jesus…this isn’t “mediation” if that’s what you’re implying…it’s giving oneself wholey and completely to another person.

 

[hays1122]

Matt 6:7 is about using meaningless words. Some Pagan prayers, common in that area. were just long strings of words meant to trap a god into granting the prayer. It was almost like a filabuster in Congress. Just keep speaking and you will get what you want.

You are right, God want communication not a dictionary read to him.

MAtt 6:7 Cannot be a ban on repetative prayer as we see in Revelation, heaven is the DEFINITION of repetative prayer. It is about content and intent, not lenght.

The rosary is not as much a prayer as a meditation tool. The prayers are to help us focus on the mysteries involved. These mysteries grant us deeper understanding of Christ and his story.

I teach the Confirmation class at my Church. I am not a priest, though

Thank you Ralph,You made a very good point and one of the most convincing yet. It is true that we read in Revelation about how the angels sing continuously,Rev.4:8 " and the four living creatures, having each one of them six wings, are full of eyes round about and within: and they have no rest day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, [is] the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come." Just one example.
I’ll keep reading and studying. I do want to understand the catholic faith. Please know ,my only resource was the protestant church before this website and EWTN.
I’m sure I’ll get it right sometime. I listen to catholic radio most of the time now. The protestant radio stations just don’t seem to speak to my mind and soul the way the catholic speakers do.
Holy,Holy,Holy is the Lord God almighty.,who was and who is and who is to come. I will meditate on that for sure.

 

[notsmart]

Read it again:

If I must.

Act of Oblation to the Blessed Virgin Mary

My Queen! my Mother!
I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self.
Wherefore, O loving Mother,
as I am thine own,
keep me, defend me,
as thy property and possession.
Amen.

I still don’t see where she is considered a deity, or more important than the Eucharist. Maybe its just how we read things.

 

[hays1122]

As a Lutheran, far be it from me to read the heart of someone praying, regardless of the sound of their voice.

Catholics may correct me, but your percentages seem a bit off.
The Invocation, Apostles Creed, Lord’s Prayer, and “Glory be…” are all directed to Christ, only the Hail Mary (the first part of which is quite scriptural), and the Hail Holy Queen are the only portions directed to the BVM.

Jon

First Q- Are you an ex-Lutheran now catholic?
BTW,I am referring to the amount of times Hail Mary is repeated compared to the Apostles Creed,Lord’s Prayer and “Glory be…”
Hail Mary is repeated about 10 times in between each of the other prayers about Jesus.There’s “Hail Mary full of grace…” and “Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners…” which brings the total Mary prayers to 20 and then there’s the “Hail Holy Queen…” . These different prayers to Mary are said
each time between the mysteries. This is how I come up with Mary getting 75% more adoration then Jesus.
Let me try to show you what I hear.
All together there seem to be nine prayers said during the Rosary.
Apostle’s creed- prayed once
Our Father- prayed once
Hail Mary- 10 times
Holy Mary Mother of God- 10 times
Glory Be to the Father- prayed once
Hail Holy Queen- prayed once
Pray for us,Oh Holy Mother- prayed once
Oh God, who’s only begotten Son- prayed once
Some are repeated again before each of the mysteries,
but not all,except of course the prayers to Mary.
Do you see why the prayers to Mary stand out so much?
Just looking at the list above you can see that we are hearing Mary several times more then God,Father, or Begotten Son.
And about my comment on how those leading the Rosary on the radio sound, I was just stating how I see it. Maybe it’s just my opinion and no one else, but I can’t help what I think about how they are praying. People say things here about how protestants worship,and some of what they say is their perception of what they see.
The reason I asked about if you’re a Lutheran is because I was thinking that the Lutheran church is the closest thing to the catholic faith from a protestant perspective. I need to look into the Lutheran church some more. I believe they do most everything like the catholic church except for the rosary.
And no pope of course.
I’m still reading my Bible and studying His word.
He blesses those who seek him.

 

[JonNC]

First Q- Are you an ex-Lutheran now catholic?
BTW,I am referring to the amount of times Hail Mary is repeated compared to the Apostles Creed,Lord’s Prayer and “Glory be…”
Hail Mary is repeated about 10 times in between each of the other prayers about Jesus.There’s “Hail Mary full of grace…” and “Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners…” which brings the total Mary prayers to 20 and then there’s the “Hail Holy Queen…” . These different prayers to Mary are said
each time between the mysteries. This is how I come up with Mary getting 75% more adoration then Jesus.
Let me try to show you what I hear.
All together there seem to be nine prayers said during the Rosary.
Apostle’s creed- prayed once
Our Father- prayed once
Hail Mary- 10 times
Holy Mary Mother of God- 10 times
Glory Be to the Father- prayed once
Hail Holy Queen- prayed once
Pray for us,Oh Holy Mother- prayed once
Oh God, who’s only begotten Son- prayed once
Some are repeated again before each of the mysteries,
but not all,except of course the prayers to Mary.
Do you see why the prayers to Mary stand out so much?
Just looking at the list above you can see that we are hearing Mary several times more then God,Father, or Begotten Son.
And about my comment on how those leading the Rosary on the radio sound, I was just stating how I see it. Maybe it’s just my opinion and no one else, but I can’t help what I think about how they are praying. People say things here about how protestants worship,and some of what they say is their perception of what they see.
The reason I asked about if you’re a Lutheran is because I was thinking that the Lutheran church is the closest thing to the catholic faith from a protestant perspective. I need to look into the Lutheran church some more. I believe they do most everything like the catholic church except for the rosary.
And no pope of course.
I’m still reading my Bible and studying His word.
He blesses those who seek him.

Life-long and current Lutheran. My comment was related to what I thought, as a non-catholic, was a representation of the rosary that was a bit off. Still think it was. Frankly, I have no problem with the rosary, including the scriptural Hail Mary. And I don’t think it is worship of the BVM.

Lutherans have 4 or 5 major differences with Rome. Otherwise, there are many similarities. I consider that a good thing.

Jon

 

[ralphinal]

What does that have to do with the prayers that I posted, the consecration of a person’s whole being to Mary instead of to Jesus…this isn’t “mediation” if that’s what you’re implying…it’s giving oneself wholey and completely to another person.

Because at any and all times, Mary points to Jesus. She never asks anything of herself. It is just like my army analogy: she is just another officer in service of the Commander in Cheif.

 

[Peter_J]

I have taken the time to listen to the rosary being said on the radio. And the speakers sound robotic and almost like they are half asleep.

It seems like there are a few Catholics out there who, when saying the rosary, try a little too hard to make their voices sound a certain way. The result can be a bit strange, perhaps “robotic” to you.

I like Fr. Mitch Pacwa’s “Holy rosary in the holy land”. His voice while saying the rosary sounds … well, just like his usual voice.

 

[hays1122]

Life-long and current Lutheran. My comment was related to what I thought, as a non-catholic, was a representation of the rosary that was a bit off. Still think it was. Frankly, I have no problem with the rosary, including the scriptural Hail Mary. And I don’t think it is worship of the BVM.

Lutherans have 4 or 5 major differences with Rome. Otherwise, there are many similarities. I consider that a good thing.

Jon

I also have no problem with the word of God. The verses in the bible referring to Mary are God’s word.
Luke 1:28 “And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: BLESSED ART THOU among women.”
and Luke 1:42 "And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, BLESSED ART THOU among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
These are not scriptural:
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners,now and at the hour of our death.
And “Hail Holy Queen” is not in the bible,not even the catholic bible. Is this part maybe in the books that are not included in most bibles? I am trying to find a catholic bible with those books.
I have also been looking up the miracles and apparitions of Mary, that Catholics and some non-Catholics have had, online.
I found it very interesting,and will continue to search.
I still believe that I should go by what the word of God says when it comes to directing my prayers and petitions to Jesus. “No one comes to the Father but by me.” And using the Lord’s Prayer as a guide on how to pray, can’t be considered wrong by anyone.

 

[hays1122]

Originally Posted by Leeann
You can’t serve two masters - if you “consecrate” yourself completely to JESUS - then it’s done…why bother going elsewhere and by what right does Mary have to “us” - our whole beings??? These prayers to Mary aren’t simply asking her to intercede and present petitions to Jesus…they’re elevating her to HIS position…giving her what is to be given to HIM alone.

Again…this is not an “earthly” thing we are dealing with, it is “spiritual” and by consecrating your whole being to Jesus…that’s it…it’s done…wholely,completely…acknowledging the fact that He is capable and able and willing to do all that we ask if we truly believe in Him and trust Him and obey Him.

I repeat,these prayers to Mary aren’t simply asking her to intercede and present petitions to Jesus…they’re elevating her to HIS position…giving her what is to be given to HIM alone.

Peace and God Bless

Leeann,Just a couple of questions out of curiosity.
Have you ever visited the website, “In Defense of the Cross” ?
What do you think of all those people who have seen visions of Mary through out the years? Fatima is the most popular one but there are 9 more listed on this site.
And how long have you been a protestant?
What brings you to this site?
I’ve been a protestant all my life. My mother would flip out if she was around to know I was even looking into the catholic religion.
I am glad I am not being kept in a little box anymore. Being told not to read about other religions or asking questions of interest.
I thank God for this website and catholic radio.

 

[Thing]

I also have no problem with the word of God. The verses in the bible referring to Mary are God’s word.
Luke 1:28 “And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: BLESSED ART THOU among women.”
and Luke 1:42 "And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, BLESSED ART THOU among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

These are not scriptural:
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners,now and at the hour of our death.
.

Holy:

For Herod feared John, knowing him to be a just and holy man;

(people can be holy)

John was the ‘greatest man who ever lived’

And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God… [to Mary]

you may reasonably call Mary ‘Holy’ also, she is the greatest woman who ever lived,

‘Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.’

Apocalypse 20
6 **Blessed and holy **is he that hath part in the first resurrection.

Surely Jesus’ Mother hath part in the first ressurrection.

…But according to him that hath called you, who is holy, be you also in all manner of conversation holy:

16 Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy.

Mary:

Matthew 1
16 And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

Mother of God:

And whence is this to me, that the **mother of my Lord **should come to me?

Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.

My Lord is my God, Mary is the mother of my Lord, the Mother of God.

Pray for us:

Judith 8
29 Now therefore pray for us, for thou art a holy woman, and one fearing God.

1 Thessalonians 5
25 Brethren, pray for us.

1 For the rest, brethren, pray for us, that the word of God may run, and may be glorified, even as among you;

Hebrews 13
18 Pray for us.

Jeremias 42
2 And they said to Jeremias the prophet: Let our supplication fall before thee: and pray thou for us to the Lord thy God for all this remnant,…

Baruch 1
And **pray ye for us **to the Lord our God:

Sinners:

Matthew 9
13 Go then and learn what this meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. For I am not come to call the just, but sinners.

Now and at the hour of our death.:

Luke 18
1 And he spoke also a parable to them, that we ought always to pray, …

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Amen:

John 1
51 And he saith to him: Amen, amen

 

[Benedict16]

Hey Churchcamefirst I am a Catholic too and I have been all my life since an infant. My family is spanish, we are very into Christ.

I know how Manny feels but we all have to stand up for our faith! I am too tired of funies and other non catholics calling us idol worshippers, and saying that we sacrifice Jesus to much all that non sence. The fact is I think as Catholics we should show them that we are the church from the bible. We are the Israelites from the bible. I think that ALL non catholics should just read about our faith and stop attacking us. They call us the church of the anti christ! Oh for goodness sakes! Please there blinded by there ways and brainwashed… That is all I have to say… I am 22 years old and on fire for my faith Catholicism. I will stand up for what I believe and I am going to be on Christ Jesus side all the days of my life. Who is with me!!!

:juggle: :getholy:

:knight2: :knight2:

PraiseGod, good for you. Don’t allow anyone to sway you about your faith. If our Catholic church wasn’t the correct one, why all the fuss? Be proud and ignore their ignorance. Jesus said many will come in my name, wolve’s in sheep’s clothing. Perhaps you have a calling to defend the faith as I do.

 

[Leeann]

Act of Oblation to the Blessed Virgin Mary

My Queen! my Mother!
**I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self. **
Wherefore, O loving Mother,
as I am thine own,
keep me, defend me,
as thy property and possession.
Amen.

You can’t serve two masters - if you “consecrate” yourself completely to JESUS - then it’s done…why bother going elsewhere and by what right does Mary have to “us” - our whole beings??? These prayers to Mary aren’t simply asking her to intercede and present petitions to Jesus…they’re elevating her to HIS position…giving her what is to be given to HIM alone.

         >>>>>>>>>>>>

If I must.

I still don’t see where she is considered a deity, or more important than the Eucharist. Maybe its just how we read things.

My question is above…let me ask it this way…who are you consecrated wholely too notsmart - Jesus or Mary?

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
Originally Posted by Leeann
You can’t serve two masters - if you “consecrate” yourself completely to JESUS - then it’s done…why bother going elsewhere and by what right does Mary have to “us” - our whole beings??? These prayers to Mary aren’t simply asking her to intercede and present petitions to Jesus…they’re elevating her to HIS position…giving her what is to be given to HIM alone.

Again…this is not an “earthly” thing we are dealing with, it is “spiritual” and by consecrating your whole being to Jesus…that’s it…it’s done…wholely,completely…acknowledging the fact that He is capable and able and willing to do all that we ask if we truly believe in Him and trust Him and obey Him.

I repeat,these prayers to Mary aren’t simply asking her to intercede and present petitions to Jesus…they’re elevating her to HIS position…giving her what is to be given to HIM alone.

Peace and God Bless

     >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Leeann,Just a couple of questions out of curiosity.
Have you ever visited the website, “In Defense of the Cross” ?
What do you think of all those people who have seen visions of Mary through out the years? Fatima is the most popular one but there are 9 more listed on this site.
And how long have you been a protestant?
What brings you to this site?
I’ve been a protestant all my life. My mother would flip out if she was around to know I was even looking into the catholic religion.
I am glad I am not being kept in a little box anymore. Being told not to read about other religions or asking questions of interest.
I thank God for this website and catholic radio.

Hi hays1122
Before answering your questions and getting into a few other areas of discussion…(just time wise right now)…I would first like to hear from you on what I posted above.

Peace and God Bless

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
What does that have to do with the prayers that I posted, the consecration of a person’s whole being to Mary instead of to Jesus…this isn’t “mediation” if that’s what you’re implying…it’s giving oneself wholey and completely to another person.

Because at any and all times, Mary points to Jesus. She never asks anything of herself. It is just like my army analogy: she is just another officer in service of the Commander in Cheif.

Hi ralphinal

Except in this prayer offered to Mary, which, with regards to the topic of this thread is being offered as perhaps why some Protestants may consider that Catholics worship Mary.

Act of Oblation to the Blessed Virgin Mary

**My Queen! my Mother!
I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self.
Wherefore, O loving Mother,
as I am thine own,
keep me, defend me,
as thy property and possession.
Amen. **

 

[Thing]

Act of Oblation to the Blessed Virgin Mary

My Queen! my Mother!
**I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self. **
Wherefore, O loving Mother,
as I am thine own,
keep me, defend me,
as thy property and possession.
Amen.

You can’t serve two masters - if you “consecrate” yourself completely to JESUS - then it’s done…why bother going elsewhere and by what right does Mary have to “us” - our whole beings??? These prayers to Mary aren’t simply asking her to intercede and present petitions to Jesus…they’re elevating her to HIS position…giving her what is to be given to HIM alone.

         >>>>>>>>>>>>

Do we worship Mary?

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
Act of Oblation to the Blessed Virgin Mary

**My Queen! my Mother!
I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self.
Wherefore, O loving Mother,
as I am thine own,
keep me, defend me, **as thy property and possession.
**Amen. **

You can’t serve two masters - if you “consecrate” yourself completely to JESUS - then it’s done…why bother going elsewhere and by what right does Mary have to “us” - our whole beings??? These prayers to Mary aren’t simply asking her to intercede and present petitions to Jesus…they’re elevating her to HIS position…giving her what is to be given to HIM alone.

In response:

Do we worship Mary?

What does the prayer indicate to you?
Is it a prayer of “intercession” being addressed to Mary?
Or is it simple "adoration/veneration/“hyper dulia”?

Or … is it the same thing as in the prayer to Jesus?

Act of Consecration to Jesus
**Lord Jesus Christ, I consecrate myself today anew and without reserve to your divine Heart. I consecrate to you my body with all its senses, my soul with all its faculties, my entire being. I consecrate to you all my thoughts, words and deeds, all my sufferings and labors, all my hopes, consolations and joys. In particular I consecrate to you this poor heart of mine so that it may love only you and may be consumed as a victim in the fire of your love. **I place my trust in you without reserve and I hope for the remission of my sins through your infinite mercy. I place within your hands all my cares and anxieties. I promise to love you and to honor you till the last moment of my life, and to spread, as much as I can, devotion to your most Sacred Heart.

**Do with me what you will, my Jesus. I deserve no other reward except your greater glory and your holy love. Take this offering of myself and give me a place within your divine Heart forever. Amen. **

Peace and God Bless