I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[ralphinal]

I just want something new. come on, bring a new charge or two.

 

[SIA]

I just want something new. come on, bring a new charge or two.

??? There is the truth and then there are those things which bear no truth. There is the Gospel and then the non-Gospel. There is the Mary of the Bible and then there is a totally different Mary of Catholic theology.

 

[Peter_J]

Don’t take it from me Manny, research what Pope Pius XII said in the Marian year he proclaimed. Pure idolotry and worship.

Can you be a little more specific? I’m guessing your referring to something he said in his 1954 encyclical “Ad caeli reginam”, but I don’t feel like reading the whole encyclical to see what he said.

 

[ralphinal]

??? There is the truth and then there are those things which bear no truth. There is the Gospel and then the non-Gospel. There is the Mary of the Bible and then there is a totally different Mary of Catholic theology.

Look, for 500 years we’ve talked about the same things. Neither side is going to budge. Why not come up with something new? We can show scripture, history, and tradition. You cannot. You can show scriptures, too. Where is the history? Where is the Tradition? Well, since they are lacking, they are of no importance. But, if I tell you people have always eaten duck, and you say that the Bible doesn’t say that, why is the history and tradition wrong?

 

[SIA]

Look, for 500 years we’ve talked about the same things. Neither side is going to budge. Why not come up with something new? We can show scripture, history, and tradition. You cannot. You can show scriptures, too. Where is the history? Where is the Tradition? Well, since they are lacking, they are of no importance. But, if I tell you people have always eaten duck, and you say that the Bible doesn’t say that, why is the history and tradition wrong?

You can show anything you want to, but it doesn’t make it true. We all know that Scripture is the truth and the Word of God. Tradition that comes from Scripture is true. But, how can teachings from a magisterium that disregards Scripture be true? Catholics have shown much more than Scripture, you bet! Problem is, what they have shown doesn’t square with Scripture.

 

[love4mary]

SIA, can you please post some examples of where you believe the Catholic Church has gone against scripture please?

 

[churchcamefirst]

Truth is the bible has never changed. Scripture has been protected without it’s doctrines ever changed from day one. The Catholic church protected it from day one.
Without the CC, you wouldn’t have a bible.

 

[pete_29]

You can show anything you want to, but it doesn’t make it true. We all know that Scripture is the truth and the Word of God. Tradition that comes from Scripture is true. But, how can teachings from a magisterium that disregards Scripture be true? Catholics have shown much more than Scripture, you bet! Problem is, what they have shown doesn’t square with Scripture.

You or your church can interpret Scripture any way you want to, but that doesn’t make your interpretation right. I’m sure that given enough time even a dummy like me could find parts of your belief that are “unscriptural”.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

You can show anything you want to, but it doesn’t make it true. We all know that Scripture is the truth and the Word of God.

…Well actually…Jesus IS the Truth…and Jesus IS the Word of God.

John 14:5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and** the truth **and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

*John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

John 1: 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. *

God bless all!!!

 

[mmplps7783]

I am a protestant looking for answers not looking to judge any religion. I will say that one thing that keeps me from joining the Catholic Church is the whole Mary and the saints thing. I realize that you are making prayer request from fellow saints but here is my problem (If you can explain it away believe me I am open to new ideas and anything that brings me closer to God is readily accepted). Whenever you ask someone (living) to pray for you, you don’t light a candle and and go into the whole prayer of the saints thing. You approach them as a fellow christian,friend, and saint. Well at least I do. Does it make that much of a difference of how you approach them just because they are dead (…“and the dead in Christ shall rise”) ? I understand the repect factor for the mother of Christ but the Bible said “no man can come unto the father but by Me” (Jesus not Mary).

 

[ralphinal]

I am a protestant looking for answers not looking to judge any religion. I will say that one thing that keeps me from joining the Catholic Church is the whole Mary and the saints thing. I realize that you are making prayer request from fellow saints but here is my problem (If you can explain it away believe me I am open to new ideas and anything that brings me closer to God is readily accepted). Whenever you ask someone (living) to pray for you, you don’t light a candle and and go into the whole prayer of the saints thing. You approach them as a fellow christian,friend, and saint. Well at least I do. Does it make that much of a difference of how you approach them just because they are dead (…“and the dead in Christ shall rise”) ? I understand the repect factor for the mother of Christ but the Bible said “no man can come unto the father but by Me” (Jesus not Mary).

Your question is actually a very good one. I will see if I can help.

Let me first mention the candle, because it is important. The candle has nothing to do with the saint and everything to do with you. You light the candle to represent your prayer. When other Catholics see candles lit in front of a statue, we should pray for those intentions, even though we do not know what they are. It is another way to get others to pray, without asking them directly.

How you approach them does not matter. You can ask them as you would another “living” person. Remember that Jesus tells us that God is the God of the living and not the dead, and we know from Scriptures that those who are baptised into Christ, though they pass away, are alive in Christ. Memorized prayers are useful to many people, and at times they are better to use, but there is no reason that you must use the St. Joseph Prayer to ask him to pray for you.

No man coming to the Father except through Jesus actually has nothing and everything to do with this topic. Our use of Mary as an intercessor is to have her intercede to her Son, and then by way of him, the Father. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any prayers to any Saint that go directly to the Father, though I cannot remmember every one that I have heard. All prayers to all saints are the same as asking you to pray for me. Yet we do not see that as trying to bypass Jesus to the Father. There is another way to look at it. Any interecessory ability that any saint has is due to his unity to Jesus. In other words, it is still through Jesus that they reach the Father. We see this most clearly in Mary. Her role as Mother of the Church is only because she is Mother of Christ.

I hope this helps.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

You can show anything you want to, but it doesn’t make it true.

Wouldn’t that be true for everyone, every denomination who interprets Scripture differently than you?

We all know that Scripture is the truth and the Word of God.

When I read statements like this I think; “Isn’t Jesus is the Word of God? And wouldn’t that make Scripture inspired quotes?” There’s a difference in venerating the bible and making an idol out of it. I’m assuming you know the difference.

Tradition that comes from Scripture is true.

This is another point that doesn’t make sense. Scripture - specifically the New Testament is born from Tradition and it took nearly four centuries to put Old and New Testament scripture into one volume. How can this statment be true?

But, how can teachings from a magisterium that disregards Scripture be true? Catholics have shown much more than Scripture, you bet! Problem is, what they have shown doesn’t square with Scripture.

This is another sweeping generalization that astonishes me… How does your interpretation of Scripture “square” with Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Eastern Orthodox, Baptists, Methodists and etc.? Is your interpretation better than their’s? Surely it can’t be the same…

 

[Peter_J]

I am a protestant looking for answers not looking to judge any religion. I will say that one thing that keeps me from joining the Catholic Church is the whole Mary and the saints thing. I realize that you are making prayer request from fellow saints but here is my problem (If you can explain it away believe me I am open to new ideas and anything that brings me closer to God is readily accepted). Whenever you ask someone (living) to pray for you, you don’t light a candle and and go into the whole prayer of the saints thing. You approach them as a fellow christian,friend, and saint. Well at least I do. Does it make that much of a difference of how you approach them just because they are dead (…“and the dead in Christ shall rise”) ? I understand the repect factor for the mother of Christ but the Bible said “no man can come unto the father but by Me” (Jesus not Mary).

Hi mmplps7783,

I’m glad to see your question – when I see Protestants ask this kind of question, I take it as a sign that the conversation is really getting somewhere.

Let me start by saying that, because so few Catholic-Protestant conversation get to this point, there isn’t a “standard answer” to this question, at least not to the extent there is for a lot of other questions. (I’m not sure if I’m saying that very well – I just mean that different Catholics will say different things.) So the following shouldn’t be taken so much as “answers” but just “thoughts”.

Sorry for taking so long to get to the point. My first thought on the matter is that we ask for prayers from both Christians on earth and those in heaven, but we generally don’t honor Christians on earth in the same way that we honor those in heaven. And also, we don’t isolate our activities of honoring the Saints in heaven and asking for their prayers – which is a good thing, but it can have negative consequences in terms of misunderstandings.

Thus, for example, when you look at the Hail Mary, you see first two quotes from scripture that honor Mary, and then “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.” The part that says “pray for us” is, in fact, very much like asking a neighbor for prayer, but the Hail Mary as a whole isn’t very much like anything you’d say to a neighbor. (I’m assuming you don’t call your neighbor “Mother of God”.)

That’s all I have time for right now. As I said, excellent question.

 

[Peter_J]

Your question is actually a very good one. I will see if I can help.

Let me first mention the candle, because it is important. The candle has nothing to do with the saint and everything to do with you. You light the candle to represent your prayer. When other Catholics see candles lit in front of a statue, we should pray for those intentions, even though we do not know what they are. It is another way to get others to pray, without asking them directly.

How you approach them does not matter. You can ask them as you would another “living” person. Remember that Jesus tells us that God is the God of the living and not the dead, and we know from Scriptures that those who are baptised into Christ, though they pass away, are alive in Christ. Memorized prayers are useful to many people, and at times they are better to use, but there is no reason that you must use the St. Joseph Prayer to ask him to pray for you.

No man coming to the Father except through Jesus actually has nothing and everything to do with this topic. Our use of Mary as an intercessor is to have her intercede to her Son, and then by way of him, the Father. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any prayers to any Saint that go directly to the Father, though I cannot remmember every one that I have heard. All prayers to all saints are the same as asking you to pray for me. Yet we do not see that as trying to bypass Jesus to the Father. There is another way to look at it. Any interecessory ability that any saint has is due to his unity to Jesus. In other words, it is still through Jesus that they reach the Father. We see this most clearly in Mary. Her role as Mother of the Church is only because she is Mother of Christ.

I hope this helps.

 

[Peter_J]

P.S.

And also, we don’t isolate our activities of honoring the Saints in heaven and asking for their prayers – which is a good thing, but it can have negative consequences in terms of misunderstandings.

That’s not to say, of course, that we never do one without the other; but most of the time, I would say, when we “pray to” Mary we both honor her and ask for her prayers for us.

 

[Peter_J]

I am a protestant looking for answers not looking to judge any religion. I will say that one thing that keeps me from joining the Catholic Church is the whole Mary and the saints thing. I realize that you are making prayer request from fellow saints but here is my problem (If you can explain it away believe me I am open to new ideas and anything that brings me closer to God is readily accepted). Whenever you ask someone (living) to pray for you, you don’t light a candle and and go into the whole prayer of the saints thing. You approach them as a fellow christian,friend, and saint. Well at least I do. Does it make that much of a difference of how you approach them just because they are dead (…“and the dead in Christ shall rise”) ? I understand the repect factor for the mother of Christ but the Bible said “no man can come unto the father but by Me” (Jesus not Mary).

I’m a bit sad that more Catholics aren’t chiming in with their thoughts; because, as I said before, I think this is a really excellent question.

My second thought on this question, is that it really cuts both ways. What I mean (I’m not sure if I’ll say this very well) is that Protestants can very well ask Catholics “Why does it look so much different when you ask your neighbors to pray for you, vs. when you ask someone in heaven to pray for you?” but likewise Catholics can ask Protestants “Why do you ask your neighbors to pray for you, but you don’t ask those in heaven to pray for you?”

Perhaps a better starting point for discussion is if we can all agree that there is some difference (without trying to say at this point whether it’s a big difference or a small one) between asking our neighbors to pray for us, and asking those in heaven to pray for us, and then to start sharing how we (each side) see that difference, and it’s implications.

 

[adstrinity]

I’m a bit sad that more Catholics aren’t chiming in with their thoughts; because, as I said before, I think this is a really excellent question.

Yes, but, not all of us can give really excellent answers, but, your prayer is heard.

Alright, I, personally do not light a candle. I did not know that we are supposed to to pray for the intentions of the lighted candles, but, I hope to remember that in the future. I also don’t like paying in order TO light the candle, THOUGH, I bet it’s not really for the privelidge of lighting the candle as much as it is for new candles or the electric bill (if it’s one of those on/off candles).

But, getting back to why do we pray to/through the saints, well, ~I~ do it because I know they can hear me. I know that I have a whole alumni of people who are wanting good things from me and rooting for me because they do nothing but love God and want what God wants and since they are hopeful that all on Earth will be in Heaven, they are more than happy to pray for us.

~I~ do not like to use memorized prayers when communicating with the Saints because I’m too busy worrying about getting the wording right and READING the prayer, that I don’t think I’m realy praying. Typically, I start out with, “Dear Saint, please pray… In Jesus’ Name, I ask that you pray this, Amen”.

AND, don’t worry about having to pray to the Saints, as you do not have to (but they REALLY want to help you. They really, REALLY do.), but, it can only help you because they can ask God, Whom they see, Who favours them, directly, face to face. They all love you so very much and one of them will take you on as his or her own, so, not only will you have God in the Trinity, the BVM, your Gardian Angel, but your Saint.

 

[sambos671]

I think you can get over this hurdel by having a protestant explain to you wha they mean by worship. Then explain what you mean by worship and show from your definition that what your doing is not worshiping.

 

[Mommyof5]

I am fed up with the false misconceptions by Protestant Christians who insist that we worship Mary and the saints. I will put this in plain English.

Catholics DO NOT worship Mary and the saints. It is veneration and honor due to them because they lived out the life that Jesus Christ taught them! They are also in Heaven with God. They are much closer to God than you and me.

Who are you to judge us that we worship saints and Mary? Do you think you an expert in Catholicism. Do you have proof from a Catholic document permitting the worship of saints and Mary?

You won’t find it. We believe these saints are more alive than you and me. It benefits us to ask the entire of the people of God to help us while we are still in this world which is full of temptation and sin. We ask the saints to “pray for us.”

Many times here on Catholic Answers Forums. Some Newbie self-proclaimed Christian declares, I say many Catholics worship Mary. Not all do, and maybe it’s not in the instruction manual, but many do. Every Catholic will come to these idoloters’ defense and say, “Oh, it’s not worship, it’s veneration.” Sorry, not buying it, and nobody should.

Oh, please. You will probably start searching for the truth and use Catholic prayer books on saints and Mary as proof text. Prayer Books however, are not Church documents.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church forbids worshipping idols. Worship is due to God alone.

Must we Catholic force you to type, “Catholics do not worship Mary.”

If you continue on this persistence, I might as well say that “Protestants worship the Bible, or the roof during their Sunday worship at Church.”

After all they raise hands up towards the ceiling. So they worship ceilings of the Church. Of course, I don’t think they worship ceiling just because they had their hands raised up high in adoration.

As a former Protestant, I totally relate to this thread. I used to have all sorts of misconceptions about the Catholic Church until I set out to prove the Church wrong. I thought Catholics were the strangest people I’d ever met: idolatry, praying to Mary, confessing sins to a priest, etc. All of it was wrong and I was going to prove it. What happened was that I was completely UNABLE to prove the Church wrong. Everywhere I looked there were scriptures looking this bible Protestant in the face, disproving EVERYTHING I’d ever been taught about Catholics. I fell in love with the Church and have taken my Christian faith to a whole new level…it’s amazing! And this coming from the person who’d been “saved” 3 times (guess I kept “losing” Jesus for some reason).

Many, many Protestants DO believe that Catholics are idolators. I was one of them. I mean, why have all of those statues, prayer cards, candles, and monotone prayers, huh? Well, I’ve since learned the truth and any Catholic that prays to a saint or to Mary (instead of ASKING them to help you in prayer to our Father) has got some issues they need to work out. It was so comforting to know that I could ask others to aid my prayers to Jesus…talk about an ARMY praying for you! Wow! Mary and the Saints are there to help us become closer to Jesus, not to substitute Him. It took many, many months of talking to me and proving to me the untruths I’d been taught before I learned that lesson. There are still some hard-liner Protestants that have so much hatred for the Catholic Church that there isn’t much, if anything, you will tell them that will even make them back off in the least. The most you can do is pray for them…maybe ask Mary to help out, too?

 

[mmplps7783]

Yes, but, not all of us can give really excellent answers, but, your prayer is heard.

Alright, I, personally do not light a candle. I did not know that we are supposed to to pray for the intentions of the lighted candles, but, I hope to remember that in the future. I also don’t like paying in order TO light the candle, THOUGH, I bet it’s not really for the privelidge of lighting the candle as much as it is for new candles or the electric bill (if it’s one of those on/off candles).

But, getting back to why do we pray to/through the saints, well, ~I~ do it because I know they can hear me. I know that I have a whole alumni of people who are wanting good things from me and rooting for me because they do nothing but love God and want what God wants and since they are hopeful that all on Earth will be in Heaven, they are more than happy to pray for us.

~I~ do not like to use memorized prayers when communicating with the Saints because I’m too busy worrying about getting the wording right and READING the prayer, that I don’t think I’m realy praying. Typically, I start out with, “Dear Saint, please pray… In Jesus’ Name, I ask that you pray this, Amen”.

AND, don’t worry about having to pray to the Saints, as you do not have to (but they REALLY want to help you. They really, REALLY do.), but, it can only help you because they can ask God, Whom they see, Who favours them, directly, face to face. They all love you so very much and one of them will take you on as his or her own, so, not only will you have God in the Trinity, the BVM, your Gardian Angel, but your Saint.

You would be so surprised how much your honesty has helped me. I have family members that are catholics and to tell you the truth they scare me. The reason being is because they are so FANATIC about EVERYTHING. You HAVE to say this prayer or you HAVE to pray to this certain saint or your prayer won’t be answered (I’m still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that you are sinning if you go to someone else’s church and skip your own mass). Thanx to alot of answers that have been given to me I have come to a better understanding of a few things.