I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[mmplps7783]

To Cat

Trying to study the religion is exactly why I am here. Everyone just assumes that I am trying to tear apart a religion and all I’m am trying to do is find out the truth for myself and not for anyone else.

 

[PraiseGodxJMJ]

Too broad? But true.

Hey Churchcamefirst I am a Catholic too and I have been all my life since an infant. My family is spanish, we are very into Christ.

I know how Manny feels but we all have to stand up for our faith! I am too tired of funies and other non catholics calling us idol worshippers, and saying that we sacrifice Jesus to much all that non sence. The fact is I think as Catholics we should show them that we are the church from the bible. We are the Israelites from the bible. I think that ALL non catholics should just read about our faith and stop attacking us. They call us the church of the anti christ! Oh for goodness sakes! Please there blinded by there ways and brainwashed… That is all I have to say… I am 22 years old and on fire for my faith Catholicism. I will stand up for what I believe and I am going to be on Christ Jesus side all the days of my life. Who is with me!!!

:juggle: :getholy:

:knight2: :knight2:

 

[adstrinity]

To Cat

Trying to study the religion is exactly why I am here. Everyone just assumes that I am trying to tear apart a religion and all I’m am trying to do is find out the truth for myself and not for anyone else.

I wanted to say this to you last night but, because I was on my phone which allocates me 512 characters, I couldn’t: I am glad you are here to check out Catholocism. I am glad you are here to check out us CAF Catholics. I encourage you to, if you have not done so previously, go to a Mass for yourself and I say all these things because you will see and you can see for yourself. If we do strange things, we do them in front of everybody. We don’t do something and try to hide it. We will cross ourselves in public, we will wear Medals and Rosary Rings.

I am not saying any of this to be confrontational, but, just so you can see us as we are how we are with all our faults. We do not hide our beliefs until they are believed. If you learn and do not believe that Catholocism is what Jesus intended, at least you can understand more about it and I personally really hope that you enjoy learning all you can.

 

[Peter_J]

I think you hit on an important point here: the English word “pray” was once used to mean “ask”. Hence not only would people use “pray” in reference to God, Mary, and other Saints, but also in reference to our fellow man in general (“I pray you bear me henceforth from the noise and rumour of the field, where I may think the remnant of my thoughts in peace, and part of this body and my soul with contemplation and devout desires.” - William Shakespeare. And also “Speak the speech, I pray you, as I pronounced it to you – tripping on the tongue”)

It seems clear that if the usage of “pray” were the same now as it was then, the idea of “praying to Mary” would be less of an issue.

P.S. I was thinking about this some more, and maybe the best way to describe it is to say that we Catholics have been put into an awkward position by the changing language.

Are Catholics to blame here, i.e. did we put ourselves into this position? In part, yes: it’s not like Protestants changed the meaning of “pray” and Catholics stuck with the old meaning. (I grew up in a Catholic family, but I don’t recall my mother ever saying to me “Set the table, I pray you.”) Rather, [English-speaking] Catholics have accepted the new meaning of “pray” in almost every area of usage, except that we still continue to speak of “praying to Mary and the Saints”.

I’m starting to think that we need to make a choice: either to stop using the phrase “pray to” with regard to Mary and the Saints, or to keep using it but also go back to saying things like “Speak the speech, I pray you”.

 

[ralphinal]

P.S. I was thinking about this some more, and maybe the best way to describe it is to say that we Catholics have been put into an awkward position by the changing language.

Are Catholics to blame here, i.e. did we put ourselves into this position? In part, yes: it’s not like Protestants changed the meaning of “pray” and Catholics stuck with the old meaning. (I grew up in a Catholic family, but I don’t recall my mother ever saying to me “Set the table, I pray you.”) Rather, [English-speaking] Catholics have accepted the new meaning of “pray” in almost every area of usage, except that we still continue to speak of “praying to Mary and the Saints”.

I’m starting to think that we need to make a choice: either to stop using the phrase “pray to” with regard to Mary and the Saints, or to keep using it but also go back to saying things like “Speak the speech, I pray you”.

Is it fair that the lack of education should force us to change our wording?

 

[Peter_J]

Is it fair that the lack of education should force us to change our wording?

I’m not really sure what you mean by “force”. My post was an either/or.

Namely, it seems like we should either embrace the language-change across the board (including not saying “pray to Mary”, etc.) or stick with the old meaning across the board (including hanging on to expressions like “Set the table, I pray you.” etc.)

So how is that forcing us to change our wording?

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Actually, yes.

IF you believe that Mary was a sinful woman like every other human being, then you will have to admit that it is possible that Mary could have indoctrinated Jesus from Day One with various false teachings.

E.g., she could have told Him constantly, “Don’t EVER let anyone hurt you. You’re too valuable to the world to be killed.” etc.

These teachings could have corrupted Jesus–He did have the free will to give in to temptation as a man. He could have told God, “Hey, I really don’t want to suffer and die. I think it would be better if I lived on earth forever and just taught good things.”

I am a mother of grown daughters. I have known MANY mothers and sadly, I have watched in horror as mothers have destroyed their children by constantly indoctrinating them with bad teachings.

Mothers of sons can turn their sons into “mama’s boys” or “Peter Pans” by not allowing them to do anything for themselves, by not allowing them to take risks, and by not allowing them to get involved with any other woman except “mom.” These helpless man-boys still live at home with mommy and are virtually useless to society. Occasionally they rebel and find a woman to fall in love with, but more often than not, they make the woman’s life a hell because they are in love with only one woman–their mother.

This is probably one of the main reasons that I believe in the Catholic teaching of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I do not believe it is possible for a mere woman to do a perfect job of mothering and transmit only good and perfect things to her child. I can see many good things in my daughters that I personally taught them or role-modeled for them. But sadly, I can see faults, sins, and flaws in my daughters that I am responsible for. I taught them these bad habits, sinful tendencies, and faults in their character.

I believe that without the Immaculate Conception, it is possible that Mary could have imparted bad things to God Himself. Perhaps that is giving too much power to human beings, but after all, WE are the ones who sent God Himself to His death on the cross, so I think it is fair to say that we are more than just beasts. I think that the Immaculate Conception was necessary for God’s Redemption plan to succeed, and I think that those who question the doctrine should speak to God about it. We need to allow Him to work in the lives of others according to His plan, and not question why His plans are different than our plans.

I’m sorry, but I disagree.

The death of Christ for our sins was God’s will. Mary had no say or choice in the matter. It was God’s plan that it would happen.

Are you saying God would’ve changed his plans if mary had refused to let her son die on the cross?

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Actually, yes.

E.g., she could have told Him constantly, “Don’t EVER let anyone hurt you. You’re too valuable to the world to be killed.” etc.

Peter did that, didn’t he?

Jesus rebuked him for it too.

 

[JonNC]

Namely, it seems like we should either embrace the language-change across the board (including not saying “pray to Mary”, etc.) or stick with the old meaning across the board (including hanging on to expressions like “Set the table, I pray you.” etc.)

Or, guys, understand that some people will never understand the difference. I know that Catholics don’t worship Mary in the sense that they (and we) worship God. I don’t agree with invocation/intercession of BVM and the saints, but I understand the difference. Even coming up with a new word will not convince some people.

Jon

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Mary had no say or choice in the matter

Well, that is why double predestination was **never **Christian teaching until Calvin ‘changed things up’. And it still isn’t Catholic Christian or Orthodox Christian --or even ‘all’ Protestant teaching either.

There is a huge difference between God knowing (as He is omniscient) that Mary would say yes–because she freely made that choice–and the Calvinist man-made idea that because God ‘knows’, it means nobody ever has a choice.

 

[Peter_J]

Well, that is why double predestination was **never **Christian teaching until Calvin ‘changed things up’. And it still isn’t Catholic Christian or Orthodox Christian --or even ‘all’ Protestant teaching either.

There is a huge difference between God knowing (as He is omniscient) that Mary would say yes–because she freely made that choice–and the Calvinist man-made idea that because God ‘knows’, it means nobody ever has a choice.

I think you’re misunderstanding what Chris LaRock is saying.

Yes, Mary was capable of sinning (just as the pre-Fall Eve was, even though neither of them had Original Sin); but I think what Chris is saying is that even if Mary had sinned, it wouldn’t have prevented the redemption of mankind. (The post that Chris was responding to claimed that Mary could have corrupted Jesus by saying “Don’t EVER let anyone hurt you. You’re too valuable to the world to be killed.”)

 

[Peter_J]

Or, guys, understand that some people will never understand the difference. I know that Catholics don’t worship Mary in the sense that they (and we) worship God. I don’t agree with invocation/intercession of BVM and the saints, but I understand the difference. **Even coming up with a new word will not convince some people. **

Jon

Good point.

Going a step further, I would say that some Evangelical Protestants are actually very happy about the fact that Catholics use the phrase “praying to Mary”.

P.S. To quote Homer: “When Marge isn’t happy, I’m not happy. And when i’m not happy Moe is very happy. But for once this isn’t about Moe!”

 

[ralphinal]

I’m not really sure what you mean by “force”. My post was an either/or.

Namely, it seems like we should either embrace the language-change across the board (including not saying “pray to Mary”, etc.) or stick with the old meaning across the board (including hanging on to expressions like “Set the table, I pray you.” etc.)

So how is that forcing us to change our wording?

I read that into what you said. Sorry.

I see no reason to change what we say because English speakers are poorly educated. We have no way to compell anyone else to use our terminology. I guess I do not have a solution.

 

[TriuneUnity]

(The post that Chris was responding to claimed that Mary could have corrupted Jesus by saying “Don’t EVER let anyone hurt you. You’re too valuable to the world to be killed.”)

Which would be silly on its face. If Jesus could resist temptation from Satan, I think He would have had resisted any temptation Mary would have given Him.

 

[JonNC]

I read that into what you said. Sorry.

I see no reason to change what we say because English speakers are poorly educated. We have no way to compell anyone else to use our terminology. I guess I do not have a solution.

I guess the only solution is for all of us,

1. clearly state what you believe
2. don’t tell others what they believe, let them tell you
3. don’t spend too much time bothering with those who don’t follow 1 and 2
4. pray

 

[TriuneUnity]

I guess the only solution is for all of us,

1. clearly state what you believe
2. don’t tell others what they believe, let them tell you
3. don’t spend too much time bothering with those who don’t follow 1 and 2
4. pray

1. Bratwurst

 

[JonNC]

1. Bratwurst

oops, forgot.

Oohhhhhhh, goodness.
6. Beer

 

[Cat]

Which would be silly on its face. If Jesus could resist temptation from Satan, I think He would have had resisted any temptation Mary would have given Him.

Jesus was a fully grown, mature man when He faced the full temptations of Satan and resisted them.

Children are much more vulnerable. If you take a child from birth and set out to corrupt them every day from the time of their birth until they are grown up, you will very likely succeed.

Has anyone ever seen those “Nazi” sisters on TV or on YouTube? I don’t have a link and if I did, I wouldn’t post it here. It’s sickening. From birth, they were indoctrinated by their parents to be racists, and today, they spew, in song and speech, a eugenics message that makes Hitler look meek. Yet apparently they have a following among people who are looking for an excuse to hate their fellow man.

And they’re just little girls. Sweet, beautiful little girls. Woe to the adults who corrupted them.

It doesn’t take a lot to lead a child astray and march them down the wrong path in life. How many of YOU struggle with various weaknesses and even sins because of the way you were raised? I do. So does my husband.

Were your parents racists? Do you ever find yourself playing the “2 points game” just like they did while you were a kid? Did you mother raise you to eat heartily? Do you still do this, even though you are overweight and in poor health? Is ice cream still your idea of “comfort?” Or liquor? Or pot (if you were born in the 60s and 70s to pot head parents.) Do you have anger management problems, because you were born into a nationality that, according to your parents, is very “hotheaded?” Do you tend to be a workaholic because your parents taught you that it’s laziness to relax? Are you stingy with you money, or just the opposite?

No, Jesus as a Child was vulnerable to the daily influence of His mother and father. God provided parents for Him who would raise Him properly.

 

[Cat]

To Cat

Trying to study the religion is exactly why I am here. Everyone just assumes that I am trying to tear apart a religion and all I’m am trying to do is find out the truth for myself and not for anyone else.

This is an Online Discussion Board, not a Catechism or an exposition of doctrine or a Bible or an RCIA class outline.

How do you even know that the people who respond to you here are really Catholics? Or perhaps they are Catholics, but they are so carnal that they are giving you the wrong answers to your questions. Or perhaps they are new Catholics like myself, that don’t know a lot.

Someone told you to go to Mass. That’s a good place to start.

The Catholic Answers section (not the message board) is a good place to get information about the Catholic Church.

But nothing will take the place of study of the Catechism, the Bible, and other good books that have been written to explain the Catholic Church. I would suggest any books by Dr. Scott Hahn, who writes for modern English-speaking people. His CDs are also wondeful, as are Tim Staples CDs. Tim Staples has done an entire CD series dissecting the Marian doctrines and proving, from the Scriptures, why they are necessary to complete Christian faith.

If you are into weightier studies, you could study the works of the Early Church Fathers. These are online.

Also, find a Catholic Church that offers an Apologetics Class, or some other class to help inquirers learn more about the Catholic Church. Sometimes the priest is willing to meet with you.

If you are lucky enough to live in a city that offers a Catholic Family Conference or a Men’s Catholic Conference, go. It’s like VBS for adults; in one weekend, you learn a ton.

An online discussion board is a great place to go to hear personal experiences and testimonies, and to solicit opinions. But it isn’t really the best place for a systematic study of the theology of the Catholic Church (or any religion).

 

[LilyM]

No, Jesus as a Child was vulnerable to the daily influence of His mother and father. God provided parents for Him who would raise Him properly.

While I agree with most of what you’ve said, this sentence kinda implies that Joseph would’ve had to be sinless too - being Jesus’ foster father he too must’ve been in a position of influence as Mary was.