I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

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Chris_LaRock said:
Why give her credit for ‘giving her son’? Did she have a choice in the matter?
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It took A LOT for Mary to not try to stop the Passion I’m sure. Can you imagine if you went and told your mother that you are going to be beaten, tried, found guilty for something you didn’t do, you won’t fight the charges, you’ll be scourged within an inch of your life, you’ll be crowned with thorns, and ultimately humiliated before thousands of people and finally crucified hanging on a cross for a few hours until you die? What would your mom say? My mom would do everything in the world to talk me out of it, stop it, and she’d fight me every step of the way.

Mary first of all DID NOT have to say “yes” to God. She has free will. So she DID give us the Son of God when she allowed the incarnation to happen that night God asked her to bear His Son. And she also did not try to stop or disuade or impede the Passion. The Mother of God stood there and watched her son broken to bits. She most certainly gave us a lot. Watching your little boy go through that torment would break any mother. She was willing to participate in the Passion with our Lord through that loss and that torment. Her heart was broken and crushed. Her sorrow for Him is unlike any sorrow you or I could share.
 
Cat said:
Jesus was a fully grown, mature man when He faced the full temptations of Satan and resisted them.

Children are much more vulnerable. If you take a child from birth and set out to corrupt them every day from the time of their birth until they are grown up, you will very likely succeed.
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So if Mary was a sinner, we must then make the next leap of illogic to say that she would have purposefully attempted to corrupt Him from His youth?

Regardless of being a child, He was still the incarnate God and had no capability of sinning. If your theory were correct, then Joseph must also have been sinless otherwise he would’ve taught Jesus to rebel against God’s law?
 
Cat said:
Jesus was a fully grown, mature man when He faced the full temptations of Satan and resisted them.

Children are much more vulnerable. If you take a child from birth and set out to corrupt them every day from the time of their birth until they are grown up, you will very likely succeed.

Has anyone ever seen those “Nazi” sisters on TV or on YouTube? I don’t have a link and if I did, I wouldn’t post it here. It’s sickening. From birth, they were indoctrinated by their parents to be racists, and today, they spew, in song and speech, a eugenics message that makes Hitler look meek. Yet apparently they have a following among people who are looking for an excuse to hate their fellow man.

And they’re just little girls. Sweet, beautiful little girls. Woe to the adults who corrupted them.

It doesn’t take a lot to lead a child astray and march them down the wrong path in life. How many of YOU struggle with various weaknesses and even sins because of the way you were raised? I do. So does my husband.

Were your parents racists? Do you ever find yourself playing the “2 points game” just like they did while you were a kid? Did you mother raise you to eat heartily? Do you still do this, even though you are overweight and in poor health? Is ice cream still your idea of “comfort?” Or liquor? Or pot (if you were born in the 60s and 70s to pot head parents.) Do you have anger management problems, because you were born into a nationality that, according to your parents, is very “hotheaded?” Do you tend to be a workaholic because your parents taught you that it’s laziness to relax? Are you stingy with you money, or just the opposite?
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I’ve never heard of the “Nazi” sisters, but I know what you mean by “sickening”. I saw a documentary once about such-and-such cult, and it was really pretty scary the way children were molded by those crazies.

All this is quite irrelevant, however, to this thread.
 
Just what I was thinking.
LilyM said:
While I agree with most of what you’ve said, this sentence kinda implies that Joseph would’ve had to be sinless too - being Jesus’ foster father he too must’ve been in a position of influence as Mary was.
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TriuneUnity said:
If your theory were correct, then Joseph must also have been sinless otherwise he would’ve taught Jesus to rebel against God’s law?
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Peter_J said:
I’ve never heard of the “Nazi” sisters, but I know what you mean by “sickening”. I saw a documentary once about such-and-such cult, and it was really pretty scary the way children were molded by those crazies.

All this is quite irrelevant, however, to this thread.
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Prussian Blue. They sing about Arian superiority (though they claim they are seperatists) and they do not think that there were 6 million Jews around for Hitler to slaughter in the Holocaust. These girls said this when they were 11 or younger. What child even KNOWS about this (unless they are Jewish) at that age? They have very clearly been coaxed. They instigate the Nazi salute on stage.
 
JonNC said:
I guess the only solution is for all of us,
  1. clearly state what you believe
  2. don’t tell others what they believe, let them tell you
  3. don’t spend too much time bothering with those who don’t follow 1 and 2
  4. pray
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I like those rules. How do we get everyone to follow them?
 
SIA said:
Don’t take it from me Manny, research what Pope Pius XII said in the Marian year he proclaimed. Pure idolotry and worship.
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The word cultus which he used in “Fulgens Corona”, which was translated as “worship”, does not mean “worship [of God]”.​

The cultus of a Saint is
  • the whole occurrence & process of the honour given them
  • the specifically liturgical expression of this
    I am guessing - wrongly ? - that you are referring to that 🙂
You’re an Anglican, so you should be familiar with the names of the Saints in the calendars of some at least of the Anglican books of prayer 🙂 - the feasts of those Saints are instances of the Anglican cultus of those people; whether we are talking about Bishop James Hannington, Bishop Edward King, or the Wesleys.

I don’t know any Anglican who imagines that any of the holy people honoured with a liturgical cultus in Anglicanism are God. So why must the BVM be thought to be a god because of that word ? Are Anglicans “idolaters” for going to the Anglican shrine to the BVM at Walsingham along with the Catholics who go to the Catholic one there ? If the Anglican cultus of the BVM is not “[p]ure idolatry”, what makes the Catholic **cultus **of the same Saint “[p]ure idolatry” ?
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

The word cultus which he used in “Fulgens Corona”, which was translated as “worship”, does not mean “worship of God”.​

The cultus of a Saint is
  • the whole occurrence & process of the honour given them
  • the specifically liturgical expression of this
    I am guessing - wrongly ? - that you are referring to that 🙂
You’re an Anglican, so you should be familiar with the names of the Saints in the calendars of some at least of the Anglican books of prayer 🙂 - the feasts of those Saints are instances of the Anglican cultus of those people; whether we are talking about Bishop James Hannington, Bishop Edward King, or the Wesleys. I don’t know any Anglican who imagines that any of the holy people honoured with a liturgical cultus in Anglicanism are God. So why must the BVM be thought to be a god because of that word ?
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I totally understand what you are referring to but unfortunately I am speaking of what Pius XII specifically proclaimed about who Mary was and what she means to us. It goes far beyond cultus.
 
SIA said:
I totally understand what you are referring to but unfortunately I am speaking of what Pius XII specifically proclaimed about who Mary was and what she means to us. It goes far beyond cultus.
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OK 🙂 - we’re getting somewhere.​

So what sort of thing have you in mind ?
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Well, that is why double predestination was **never **Christian teaching until Calvin ‘changed things up’. And it still isn’t Catholic Christian or Orthodox Christian --or even ‘all’ Protestant teaching either.

There is a huge difference between God knowing (as He is omniscient) that Mary would say yes–because she freely made that choice–and the Calvinist man-made idea that because God ‘knows’, it means nobody ever has a choice.
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Read the Old Testament. God Himself predestined the death and resurresction of the Messiah. That is foretold through out the OT.

This has nothing to do with Calvinism at all. God had a plan for how He was going to redeem the world, and he did it without asking Mary’s permission. She had no choice in the matter.
 
Peter_J said:
I think you’re misunderstanding what Chris LaRock is saying.

Yes, Mary was capable of sinning (just as the pre-Fall Eve was, even though neither of them had Original Sin); but I think what Chris is saying is that even if Mary had sinned, it wouldn’t have prevented the redemption of mankind. (The post that Chris was responding to claimed that Mary could have corrupted Jesus by saying “Don’t EVER let anyone hurt you. You’re too valuable to the world to be killed.”)
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Exactly.

The death of Jesus was God’s will, and didn’t depend upon Mary going along with it. She really had no choice or say in the matter. Crediting her with what God had already set out to do is wrong. But I guess you’d have to do that to justify elevating her to the level the RCC has.
 
Chris_LaRock said:
Exactly.
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👍
Chris_LaRock said:
The death of Jesus was God’s will, and didn’t depend upon Mary going along with it. She really had no choice or say in the matter. Crediting her with what God had already set out to do is wrong. But I guess you’d have to do that to justify elevating her to the level the RCC has.
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Not to change the subject, but for some reason I thought you were Catholic.

😊
 
Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.
I wonder what that means?
 
Peter_J said:
👍

Not to change the subject, but for some reason I thought you were Catholic.

😊
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Nah. I come from a Lutheran background, and they share a lot in common with Catholics in many ways.

They exalt Mary and the saints too much.
 
Chris_LaRock said:
Abraham found favor with God too. Do you pray to him as well?
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I’m free to if I want.

Was Abraham blessed among men.
Can I call you blessed among all men, Chris? Do you mind?
Would you call yourself blessed among men?
 
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