I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[guanophore]

Where is it recorded that Jesus gave Mary this position?

It is an error to think that everything God has done needs to be “recorded”.

You have been shown the passages previously and rejected them. Search back using “justasking4 and Mary” You will find hundreds of postings on dozens of threads.

Did the apostles recognize this?

I am sure they did, after the fact!

Do you agree then that Mary is omnipotent?

Not in the Divine sense, no. I am sure she has power over whatever her Divine Son decrees, just as we all do.

 

[LilyM]

Where is it recorded that Jesus gave Mary this position? Did the apostles recognize this?

Do you agree then that Mary is omnipotent?

The answer to both these questions lies in Our Lord’s saying ‘those who believe will do the works I do, yea and even greater’.

Clearly from this saying of His, it is what a person (entity) IS by nature, rather than what power or characteristics a person has or what they do, that makes them divine. Nor, it logically follows, is it the mere ascribing of power or action - of any sort whatsoever, clearly - to a person that makes our relationship to them one of worship. Otherwise, Jesus clearly was worshipping His followers or calling them divine when He said the above about them!

And yes, the Apostles along with Gabriel, Elizabeth, Simeon, the servants at Cana, John, and Mary herself, knew of her surpassing belief in God, first and foremost, and the authority and/or power that came with it.

 

[guanophore]

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

EXCUSES ASIDE…You can use these graven images (images of mary or of ‘saints’) in cathedrals for concentration purposes for adoration or just for decoration. BUT…whatever excuses you may use, it is in vain, you are violating the above commandment 2.
The 2nd commandment STARE you in the face, while you blatatly violate. There’s plainly put…NO EXCUSE.

If this means what you say it means, why would God command them after this to create graven images?

 

[guanophore]

If one were to worship Mary what would it look like? What do you think would be the characteristics be?

I imagine just like any other form of idolatry. Placing a created thing above the Creator. Much like many Fundamentalists place their written word of God over the Living Word of God.

 

[justasking4]

I imagine just like any other form of idolatry. Placing a created thing above the Creator. Much like many Fundamentalists place their written word of God over the Living Word of God.

You are simply amazing… :bowdown2: :bowdown2: Again you don’t disappoint. What is the Living Word of God today? Couple of examples of it would greatly increase my understanding…

 

[justasking4]

The answer to both these questions lies in Our Lord’s saying ‘those who believe will do the works I do, yea and even greater’.

Clearly from this saying of His, it is what a person (entity) IS by nature, rather than what power or characteristics a person has or what they do, that makes them divine. Nor, it logically follows, is it the mere ascribing of power or action - of any sort whatsoever, clearly - to a person that makes our relationship to them one of worship. Otherwise, Jesus clearly was worshipping His followers or calling them divine when He said the above about them!

And yes, the Apostles along with Gabriel, Elizabeth, Simeon, the servants at Cana, John, and Mary herself, knew of her surpassing belief in God, first and foremost, and the authority and/or power that came with it.

Here is what omnipotent means:

“almighty or infinite in power, as God”. This is what it means to be omnipotent. With such power a person could create a universe and could do anything power could do. Do you think Mary has this kind of power?

 

[adstrinity]

“hearsay”,yes, the virgin Mary has not appeared to me yet. I have been reading all I can so I can understand the Catholic faith and what they say about Mary. The relevance in the division is that Catholics take pride in the fact that there are not hundreds of denominations that call themselves Catholic as there are in the protestant religion.

But, you do not understand the Catholic faith and you do not seem to make an attempt by saying, “sounds like they worship Mary.” If one wanted to understand the Catholic faith, objectively, one would state that we give honour to Mary and be able to distinguish this from the Honour we give God.

…This has no relevance to this topic (it is a non-sequiter), saying it did: it doesn’t matter what any and all individual Catholics believe, all that matters is what the Church teaches.

 

[justasking4]

But, you do not understand the Catholic faith and you do not seem to make an attempt by saying, “sounds like they worship Mary.” If one wanted to understand the Catholic faith, objectively, one would state that we give honour to Mary and be able to distinguish this from the Honour we give God.

…This has no relevance to this topic (it is a non-sequiter), saying it did: it doesn’t matter what any and all individual Catholics believe, all that matters is what the Church teaches.

What is the difference between honour, veneration and worship?

 

[adstrinity]

What is the difference between honour, veneration and worship?

Spelling.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
What is the difference between honour, veneration and worship?

adstrinity
Spelling.

So veneration and honour = worship?

 

[LilyM]

Here is what omnipotent means:

“almighty or infinite in power, as God”. This is what it means to be omnipotent. With such power a person could create a universe and could do anything power could do. Do you think Mary has this kind of power?

Who says Mary is omnipotent? It certainly isn’t dogma, doctrine or even widespread Church teaching or belief, as you’ve been told often enough to know.

Having said that, are you daring to assert that God cannot choose to graciously give unlimited power, including the power to create a Universe, to Mary, or the Apostles, or to you or me, if He wants? Especially when we are in heaven and incapable of abusing that power, since nothing that is imperfect (that is, NOT united with His will or that would abuse any amount of privilege granted it) can enter Heaven?

Surely if she (or anyone) who believes in Him can do the same works as He does it would rather indicate that God probably will grant us a share in all of His powers!

Wouldn’t make any of us any the more God if we WERE omnipotent, nor make us any the more divine. Divine is about what you ARE in your essence, not about a superficial characteristic like how much power you have or what you can do.

We (and Mary) would still be created beings, subjects of the One who created US, and even if we create worlds ourselves, it doesn’t MAKE us gods, partly because it’s through OUR God’s power that we would do so and not our own. God is God not because He creates, but because He Himself is UNcreated. We aren’t and never will be, no matter what else we do.

There’s certainly nothing in scripture that says that there are any limits to the amount of power God can grant another. And every indication (based on the saying of Jesus about the works His followers will do) that He can and just may grant UNlimited power - a share in His own power - to His followers. What a wonderful prospect - and how in accord with our God who gave His own Son, His own life, for us - that He would also give us a share in His power!

 

[justasking4]

LilyM;4288522]Who says Mary is omnipotent? It certainly isn’t dogma, doctrine or even widespread Church teaching or belief, as you’ve been told often enough to know.

It can be found in the popular work called The Glories of Mary by Alfonso Ligori who is a saint and doctor of the Catholic church. No doubt this has had a powerful influence on Mariology.

Having said that, are you daring to assert that God cannot choose to graciously give unlimited power to Mary, or the Apostles, or to you or me, if He wants? Especially when we are in heaven and incapable of abusing that power, since nothing that is imperfect (that is, NOT united with His will or that would abuse any amount of privilege granted it) can enter Heaven?

i don’t know if this is possible. What you are doing is speculating.

Surely if she (or anyone) who believes in Him can do the same works as He does it would rather indicate that God probably will us a share in all of His powers! Wouldn’t make any of us any the more God if we WERE omnipotent, nor make us any the more divine. Divine is about what you ARE, not about a superficial characteristic like how much power you have or what you can do.

Being omnipotent is a attribute of deity.

There’s certainly nothing in scripture that says that there are any limits to the amount of power God can grant another. And every indication (based on the saying of Jesus about the works His followers will do) that He can and just may grant UNlimited power - a share in His own power - to His followers. What a wonderful prospect - and how in accord with our God who gave His own Son, His own life, for us - that He would also give us a share in His power!

Do you think God could make us equal with Him?

 

[Lilyflower]

not true at all. To say that Mary is the Mother of God is to say that God begun with Mary which is totally ridiculous. Mary was the Mother of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, second person of the Trinity.

To say that Mary is the mother of God is not to deny that God had no mother or beginning. It is perfectly logical and in fact most illogical to argue otherwise.

What I think the problem is, is not the mystery but some folk’s ability to comprehend it.

I can’t understand the atom so what you are saying is 'every quantum and theoretical physicist and competent authority on the subject, has it wrong because I can’t understand it

While it is true to say ‘The Father had no mother’, by definition Mary has to be the Mother of the uncreated eternal unborn Father because Christ is in the Father and the Spirit, so mystically His Mother must also be Mother of Christ in the Father. Bizarre but logically it can be no other way.

The only other way it is possible is to be able to separate the Son from the Father which denies the essence of the mystery of the Holy Trinity. So Mother of one Person because of their inter-relationship with the other Two, Mary has to be mystically Mother of all Three since One is in the other Two.

Blessings and peace

 

[onenow1]

Who says Mary is omnipotent? It certainly isn’t dogma, doctrine or even widespread Church teaching or belief, as you’ve been told often enough to know.

Having said that, are you daring to assert that God cannot choose to graciously give unlimited power, including the power to create a Universe, to Mary, or the Apostles, or to you or me, if He wants? Especially when we are in heaven and incapable of abusing that power, since nothing that is imperfect (that is, NOT united with His will or that would abuse any amount of privilege granted it) can enter Heaven?

Surely if she (or anyone) who believes in Him can do the same works as He does it would rather indicate that God probably will grant us a share in all of His powers!

Wouldn’t make any of us any the more God if we WERE omnipotent, nor make us any the more divine. Divine is about what you ARE in your essence, not about a superficial characteristic like how much power you have or what you can do.

We (and Mary) would still be created beings, subjects of the One who created US, and even if we create worlds ourselves, it doesn’t MAKE us gods, partly because it’s through OUR God’s power that we would do so and not our own. God is God not because He creates, but because He Himself is UNcreated. We aren’t and never will be, no matter what else we do.

There’s certainly nothing in scripture that says that there are any limits to the amount of power God can grant another. And every indication (based on the saying of Jesus about the works His followers will do) that He can and just may grant UNlimited power - a share in His own power - to His followers. What a wonderful prospect - and how in accord with our God who gave His own Son, His own life, for us - that He would also give us a share in His power!

Great thought LilyM !

Quote= onenow1 Peter did walk on water for a little while didn;t he, but oops! his faith failed.

I don’t think Mary’s faith ever failed, she new who Jesus was.

Peace, onenow1

 

[justasking4]

Great thought LilyM !

Quote= onenow1 Peter did walk on water for a little while didn;t he, but oops! his faith failed.

I don’t think Mary’s faith ever failed, she new who Jesus was.

Peace, onenow1

If Mary’s faith never failed then what am i to think of Luke 2:49-50?

 

[LilyM]

Yeah, just like all the Doctors of the Church (including St Augustine, St Thomas Aquinas and St Catherine of Siena) who wrote against the Immaculate Conception had a great impact on today’s Mariology

We take them with a much bigger grain of salt than you seem to.

Would it surprise you to know that for 33 years of life as a Catholic I’d never, until I came to these boards, HEARD of the book, and only really the name of St Alphonsus himself? And I was a well-educated Catholic even back then, though not as much as now.

He just doesn’t have as great an influence as you’d like to think, and please for once take the word of people who know what they’re talking about (unlike you) when they tell you this. Go to your local Catholic church one Sunday and ask, great odds that only half-a-dozen people, including the priest, would’ve heard of the book, fewer still read it, fewer still take it literally.

Do you think God could make us equal with Him?

 

[justasking4]

LilyM;4288601]

Yeah, just like all the Doctors of the Church (including St Augustine, St Thomas Aquinas and St Catherine of Siena) who wrote against

 

[onenow1]

If Mary’s faith never failed then what am i to think of Luke 2:49-50?

=onenow1, ja4 you make it a verse of faith, which it is not, it is a verse of love for Jesus,a rhetorical question.

Peace, onenow1

 

[LilyM]

LilyM;4288601]
Here is what the introduction of this work says on one of its websites:
"INTRODUCTION

 

[justasking4]

justasking4;4288653:

Oh fer Pete’s sake.

It’s a promotional blurb for the book on a promotional website for the works of St Alphonsus - doubtless they sell that book on the site, no? What are they going to say, that it’s obscure and has influenced few people and that’s why you should read it or buy it?

Of COURSE it’s going to say he’s influenced millions. Just like EVERY published book, regardless of its quality, has fantastic-sounding blurbs and introductions according to which they’re every last one of them sublime and universe-changing and going to influence millions.

And if you fall for any of them then I’ve got a nice statue in New York Harbour I’d like to sell you …

Blurbs and introductions exaggerate for effect, it’s just what they do. Particularly when they’re from people specifically trying to sell or promote what they’re writing about!

Like I said, there’s only one way to find out for sure. Put your money where your allegedly truth-seeking mouth is, and go to the source. Visit any Catholic Church any Sunday and ask the people there, you’ll see for yourself just how few have even heard of it, well fewer still have actually read it.

If what you saying is true about the introduction to this work is that they are lying. Secondly, just look at some of the details of his work and compare them with details of the Marian doctrines and the stuff written about her. Its quite apparent.