I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[RobGentner]

You know what i dont need a label like protestant or catholic. I have what i need and that is Jesus my savior. Your comments are very rude. We both love Christ cant we treat each other the way Jesus would have us too with love? I had always thought the catholic church had some wonderful and loving people in it .This board is an eye opener for me. Its heart breaking on both sides when we treat each other this way.Deb

**Deb, my child, whatever happened to Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you may not be judged?” And yes Deb you do need a lable: Save or Heretic.

I rejoice that you found Jesus and accept Him as your personal savior. I will not joke about that. God bless you for finding Him. Now his church awaits your arrival!
Just watch a little and see the games JA4 and others play then you will understand. You either have to love them and joke with them as they ask the same questions over and over and keep repeating lies. :bounce: Or you have to get angry at them.:slapfight: I realize as do some others that they are just playing. :extrahappy: They actually realize that their religion is wrong. They are intelligent they can count back and know the RCC is 2,000 years old and their counterfeit churches are much younger.:crying:

God Bless. You are loved.:hug3: **

 

[RobGentner]

**
I don’t know how long you have been visiting these threads but Rob is really very loving.**
** OK, Now you got me blushing! STOP IT!! ** **
But when you get an itch and it gets more itchy you begin to scratch it. That is all he is doing. **

** No Cinette, truthfully? I was just Playing!!! :extrahappy:
I call them Heretics. They act like that is a bad thing. I have been waiting for some one to catch on… No one did So I will explain…

Dictionary: Heretic (hĕr’ĭ-tĭk) n. A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.:doh2:

They are Protestants. As such they publicly dissents from the official accepted dogma of the RCC. They don’t agree with that? They act like being a Heretic was a bad thing. I, of course, think it is a “deadly” thing. But they have no reason to because it is exactly what being a “protest”- ant is all about!

Everybody get angry at me like I am attacking them?
I am from Texas if you say I am a Texan I will say ~ YUP!
I am white! If you say You are an Anglo I will say ~YUP!
I am 64 years old! If you say I am old we are in a fight!:slapfight:

People should not be so quick to judge and even less quick to misjudge. Now guys go and sin no more! (Us catholics can have ours forgiven !!! )

Isn’t God GREAT?

**

 

[RobGentner]

**Am I the only one who would like to have in one handy location all the titles ascribed to Our Blessed Mother Mary? I think not, and so I’ve compiled a fairly comprehensive, but I am sure not exhaustive list of the ways we Catholics refer to Mary, Our Queen of heaven . (her Hebrew name appears in texts as either Maryam or Miriam, depending on the translation.)
My fellow Catholics, unlike most of you, I don’t pray the “Divine Chaplet To The Blessed Mother Of Our Lord And Savior Jesus Christ” as often as I should. So if I missed a name or two please let me know.

Do you notice how your favorite aspect of Mary shifts according to your life circumstances and spiritual condition?

“Divine Chaplet To The Blessed Mother Of Our Lord And Savior Jesus Christ”

Adam’s Deliverance
Advocate of Eve
Advocate of Sinners
All Chaste
All Fair and Immaculate
All Good
Aqueduct of Grace
Ark Gilded by the Holy Spirit
Ark of the Covenant
Blessed Among Women
Blessed Virgin Mary
Bridal Chamber of the Lord
Bride of Christ
Bride of Heaven
Bride of the Canticle
Bride of the Father
Cause of Our Joy
Chosen Before the Ages
Comfort of Christians
Comforter of the Afflicted
Consoler of the Afflicted
Co-Redemptrix
Court of the Eternal King
Created Temple of the Creator
Crown of Virginity
Daughter of Men
David’s Daughter
Deliverer From All Wrath
Deliverer of Christian Nations
Destroyer of Heresies
Dispenser of Grace
Dwelling Place for God
Dwelling Place of the Spirit
Earth Unsown
Earth Untouched and Virginal
Eastern Gate
Ever Green and Fruitful
Ever Virgin
Exalted Above the Angels
Fleece of Heavenly Rain
Flower of Carmel
Flower of Jesse’s Root
Formed Without Sin
Forthbringer of God
Forthbringer of the Ancient of Days
Forthbringer of the Tree of Life
Fountain of Living Water
Fountain Sealed
Free From Every Stain
Full of Grace
Garden Enclosed
Gate of Heaven
God’s Eden
God’s Olive Tree
God’s Vessel
Handmaid of the Lord
Healing Balm of Integrity
Health of the Sick
Helper of All in Danger
Help of Christians
Holy in Soul and Body
Hope of Christians
House Built by Wisdom
House of Gold
Immaculate
Immaculate Conception
Immaculate Heart
Immaculate Mother
Immaculate Queen
Immaculate Virgin
Incorruptible Wood of the Ark
Inventrix of Grace
Inviolate
Joseph’s Spouse
Kingly Throne
King’s Mother
Lady Most Venerable
Lady of Charity
Lady of Counsel
Lady of the Golden Heart
Lady of Good Help
Lady of the Holy Souls
Lady of Mercy
Lady of Peace
Lady of Perpetual Help
Lady of Prompt Succor
Lady of Providence
Lady of Ransom
Lady of the Rosary
Lady of Sorrows
Lady of Tears
Lady of Victory
Lamp Unquenchable
Life-Giver to Posterity
Light Cloud of Heavenly Rain
Lily Among Thorns
Living Temple of the Deity
Loom of the Incarnation
Mediatrix
Mediatrix and Conciliatrix
Mediatrix of All Grace
Mediatrix of Salvation
Mediatrix of the Mediator
Minister of Life
Mirror of Justice
More Beautiful Than Beauty
More Glorious Than Paradise
More Gracious Than Grace
More Holy Than the Cherubim, the Seraphim, and the Entire Angelic Hosts
Morning Star
Most Venerable
Mother Most Admirable
Mother Most Amiable
Mother Most Pure
Mother of Christians
Mother of Christ’s Members
Mother of Divine Grace
Mother of God
Mother of Good Counsel
Mother of Jesus Christ
Mother of Men
Mother of Our Creator
Mother of Our Head
Mother of Our Savior
Mother of the Church
Mother of the Mystical Body
Mother of Wisdom
Mother Undefiled
My Body’s Healing
My Soul’s Saving
Mystical Rose
Nature’s Re-Creation
Nature’s Restoration
Neck of the Mystical Body
Never Fading Wood
New Eve
Nourisher of God and Man
Olive Tree of the Father’s Compassion
Only Bridge of God to Men
Paradise Fenced Against the Serpent
Paradise of Innocence and Immortality
Paradise of the Second Adam
Paradise Planted by God
Patroness and Protectoress
Perfume of Faith
Preserved From All Sin
Protectoress From All Hurt
Star of the Sea
Queen of All Saints
Queen of Angels
Queen of the Apostles
Queen of Creation
Queen of Heaven
Queen of Heaven and Earth
Queen of Martyrs
Queen of Peace
Queen Unconquered
Refuge in Time of Danger
Refuge of Sinners
Reparatrix
Reparatrix of Her Parents
Reparatrix of the Lord World
Rich in Mercy
Rose Ever Blooming
Sanctuary of the Holy Spirit
Scepter of Orthodoxy
Seat of Wisdom
Second Eve
Singular Vessel of Devotion
Sister and Mother
Spiritual Vessel
Spotless Dove of Beauty
Star of the Sea
Suppliant for Sinners
Surpassing Eden’s Gardens
Surpassing the Heavens
Surpassing the Seraphim
Sweet Flowering and Gracious Mercy
Tabernacle of God
Tabernacle of the Word
Temple Divine
Temple Indestructible
Temple of the Lord’s Body
Theotokos
Throne of the King
Tower of David
Tower of Ivory
Tower Unassailable
Treasure House of Life
Treasure of Immortality
Treasure of the World Undefiled
Undefiled Treasure of Virginity
Undug Well of Remission’s Waters
Unlearned in the Ways of Eve
Unplowed Field of Heaven’s Bread
Unwatered Vineyard of Immortality’s Wine
Vessel of Honor
Victor Over the Serpent
Virgin Most Faithful
Virgin Most Merciful
Virgin Most Powerful
Virgin Most Prudent
Virgin Most Pure
Virgin Mother
Virgin of Virgins
Wedded to God
Woman Clothed With the Sun
Workshop of the Incarnation

Isn’t Mary GREAT??? God Bless her and may we always keep her name on our lips

I said: “I don’t pray” ’ the Divine Chaplet To The Blessed Mother Of Our Lord And Savior Jesus Christ’ as often as I should"

That is true because I just now made up that name! That should stop the poor Protestants from looking for references trying to attack us.
However all the names are true we just don’t pray them as a chaplet!
See, and you guys think that I am mean!

God Bless all of you. **

 

[Cinette]

It has always been said that the truth hurts and is not easy to be up-front and say the truth. Yes, Protestantism is a heresay. They are heretics. It is just that we don’t say it. We discuss the truth and hope that they will see the heresies by themselves.

If you put the light next to the darkness then the light will overcome the darkness.

And this “playing” you talk about. There is a limit you know. You have a lot of patience.

The issues on these forums are serious and important one and we should strive to reach conclusions. We need to progress.
:grouphug:

 

[guanophore]

**Pixie, As stated 100% of what you said is correct. I applaude you. :clapping: The only minor thing I might argue with you was about is the " may not qualify as formal heretics" remark. I am sorry, they are heretics/ There isn’t gray in this matter. You are still trying to be nice. My dear, that isn’t a sin! We need nice people!

God Bless. and remember no only to be kind. But atempt to help out brothers and sisters find the River!**

Pixie is right, Rob. If you read your catechism, this is clear. Furthermore, your inappropriate use of this word in this context is dangerously close to violation of the forum rules

There is only one Church, one Body, one faith, and one baptism. That is why all who are validly baptized are members of the Catholic Church, however improperly joined. There is no “christianity” outside the CAtholic Church, so all who are believers in Him are catholic by default.

 

[guanophore]

Believing that Mary was the only human being apart from Jesus who was sinless would make her divine.

This is a logical error. Jesus wants all of us to be without sin. It does not make us divine, it makes us how He created us to be.

And when people pray the rosary, they are indeed praying to Mary. So how can Catholics say that they don’t pray to Mary?

We say that we don’t worship Mary. Asking someone for their prayers is not worship, it is a request for intercession.

P.S. My Catholic relatives have told me that they do seek her in prayer, and ask her to help them.

Suplication is one form of prayer. It is not the same as worship/adoration.

 

[guanophore]

And that is what you have been taught about the bible…by the “Church”… and therefore you believe it to be true, however that in itself does not make it true.

The books of the Old Testament itself, for instance, were not written just to reveal things to the “Church”.

What makes you think not?

Any organization or individual for that matter, that claims that they alone have the sole right to God’s word and its interpretation is either lying and has been corrupted as you say by “religious error” and is being misled by the devil - or is a fool.:sad_yes:

I agree. Only the HS can have such a “right”, being the author of said books. That Spirit was promised to the Church, and is espoused to her. The Church is not separated from Christ, her Head, and it is through this Head that proper interpretation take place.

And anyone that claims that the Catholic church, as we know it today, is the one true church that Jesus established, has indeed been blinded by a LOT of “religious error”,

The fact that you don’t recognize the large tree that has grown from the small seed does not make it any less the authentic tree.

as is evident when some of their adherents are confused about the teachings and dogmas that have been instituted over the centuries,

This is a very flagrant logical error. To say that confused persons make the Teaching wrong is ridiculous. That is just like saying that, since Judas rejected what Christ taught, nothing He taugth is right.

It is not right to define the truth by looking at the persons who are in error with regard to it. One determines truth by looking to the Source of Truth, not those that have fallen from Him.

in some cases to the point of placing all their faith and focus on Mary, and their “implicit faith” in the “Church”…instead of on God….where it should be.

I don’t know any Cathlics that place their faith and focus on Mary, but even if there are, this is not so problematic, because she always points to Him. She is eternally saying “do whatever He tells you”. That being the case, one who is focused will not get lost.

You make a distinction that does not exist. Jesus identifies Himself completely with His Bride, the Church. When people persecute the Church, they persecute Him. When people believe in what the Church teaches, they beleive in Him. It is not “instead”.

 

[Leeann]

PixieDust:
The Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus established. Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, etc…came into being about 1500+ years too late to be the Church founded by Christ and His Apostles. It’s not a point of pride, it’s historical fact. A historical fact that this staunchly “Landmark” Baptist girl couldn’t argue with and gave me my first nudge towards coversion.

Hi PixieDust. I understand what you are saying, however I don’t believe that the Catholic church “of today” is the same church that Christ and His Apostles established.

PixieDust:
No Catholic places all of their faith and focus on Mary, we know full well she’s not divine. In fact, we are forbidden to worship anyone but God. To do so places us outside the true Faith. We ask Mary to pray for us because we believe her to be a powerful prayer warrior, alongside the other saints who offer prayers before the throne of God in Heaven.

Not so – some do – I have witnessed the slow progression, over a period of years…. of that “faith and focus” being transposed to Mary to the point where Jesus/God’s name is not even being mentioned, the prominence of little statues of Mary, prayer cards “to” only Mary’s “veneration” (not for intercession) and the fevered expectancy in her power to “get things”…extreme…but true.They present and view Jesus as non approachable.
In fact that is the main reason I am in here….to try and understand why this has happened to these dear friends of mine. They “used” to be just as you described above.

PixieDust:
You seem to have some misunderstandings about the Catholic Church and I hope and pray that you check out the Library at Catholic Answers (linked at the top of this page), and the Catholic Bridge to help you understand that the Catholicism you seem to be so very opposed to is not true Catholicism, but a caricature. If I can help any, feel free to PM me.

Thank you Pixie Dust. I’ll “bookmark” the Catholic Bridge site.

 

[happilycatholic]

To the Non-Catholics:

In what way do we (catholics) worship Mary and the Saints??

 

[CWBetts]

I am the only Catholic in my family, and I can assure you, Protestants DO believe we worship Mary and the Saints. The saddest part, however, is that my the source of the misinformation: ex-Catholics! That is right, sadly a good deal of the belief that Catholics practice idolatry comes from former Catholics who did not know or understand the teachings of their own Church!!:banghead:

 

[Cinette]

Pixie is right, Rob. If you read your catechism, this is clear. Furthermore, your inappropriate use of this word in this context is dangerously close to violation of the forum rules

There is only one Church, one Body, one faith, and one baptism. That is why all who are validly baptized are members of the Catholic Church, however improperly joined. There is no “christianity” outside the CAtholic Church, so all who are believers in Him are catholic by default.

I am pleased you responded. You have put it in a very charitable way I suppose. I sometimes have a problem with not calling a spade a spade. I do believe in the salvation of all people who are baptised, who love God and who follow His precepts.

Thank you
Cinette

 

[Leeann]

Re: I’m getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

**CWBetts: **
I am the only Catholic in my family, and I can assure you, Protestants DO believe we worship Mary and the Saints. The saddest part, however, is that my the source of the misinformation: ex-Catholics! That is right, sadly a good deal of the belief that Catholics practice idolatry comes from former Catholics who did not know or understand the teachings of their own Church!!

---

Carl

Originally Posted by guanophore
Pixie is right, Rob. If you read your catechism, this is clear. Furthermore, your inappropriate use of this word in this context is dangerously close to violation of the forum rules

There is only one Church, one Body, one faith, and one baptism. That is why all who are validly baptized are members of the Catholic Church, however improperly joined. There is no “christianity” outside the CAtholic Church, so all who are believers in Him are catholic by default.

Yes thank you guanophore and I’m not being smart alecky, I sincerely mean it.

You can see how/why, some Protestants believe that Catholics worship Mary and the saints. It’s the confused responses and beliefs that sincerely, devout Catholics are “putting out there”.

I will take CWBETTS posting one step further as it is not just “ex-Catholics” but “practicing Catholics” now, that have different understandings of what the church teaches, proving that there is indeed “confusion”…within the Catholic church and that there is “disunity” ….within the Catholic church….that is not a condemnation – just a fact - as has been charged against the Protestant churches by the Catholic church for years.

While the confusion and disunity may not be as obvious when one views the Catholic church by its own pronouncements to the world – it nevertheless is still very much there, as is evident by some of the postings in this thread by Catholics who have different “understandings” as to what the Catholic church teaches.

The Catholic church – just as any other church out there, has the responsibility of ensuring that those who belong to it, are receiving the gospel message of Jesus Christ as clearly and as understandably as possible…no grey areas that cause “confusion” or “misunderstanding” and could be considered “stumbling blocks” to those who trust in their leadership. ( “you don’t have to believe that if you don’t want too – that’s a “teaching” but not necessarily a dogma or it hasn’t been codified – we don’t abide by that anymore as it’s been changed- but you can do it if you want too anyway…”)

The same confusion or misunderstanding that is being passed on “now”….as indicative above by Catholic posters themselves, also illuminates the possibility that other “misunderstandings” over the centuries have been passed on. What would lead anyone to believe otherwise…if it is happening today, and it is obviously from “within” the church, a lot of development and theories and misunderstanding could have been happening then and been carried forward.

We read constantly in the epistles to the early churches about warnings of false doctrines, heresies, false teachings that were “already” amongst them, not just with openly pagan beliefs, but with teachings that were once again trying to bind them up as the Judaic rituals and laws had once done.

The only one, stable, one true thing is the promise that God made to us through Jesus Christ and His blood sacrifice on the cross.

I believe,**that **is what the Apostles preached and **that **was the centre of their commission.

 

[justasking4]

To the Non-Catholics:

In what way do we (catholics) worship Mary and the Saints??

By singing hymns of praise to Mary and using such titles of praise to her name. The following is from post # 699. Its only a partial list:

“Mediatrix
Mediatrix and Conciliatrix
Mediatrix of All Grace
Mediatrix of Salvation
Mediatrix of the Mediator
Minister of Life
Mirror of Justice
More Beautiful Than Beauty
More Glorious Than Paradise
More Gracious Than Grace
More Holy Than the Cherubim, the Seraphim, and the Entire Angelic Hosts
Morning Star
Most Venerable
Mother Most Admirable
Mother Most Amiable
Mother Most Pure”

These are the kinds of things that should be said only of God and never of a created being.

 

[happilycatholic]

JustAsking:

Okay, fair enough.

So, praising someone is equal to worship? As I understand, Websters defines praise as an expression of approval and commendation when generally used. When used with God as the subject of the praise, then and only then you get the worship definition.

So these hymns you mention are hymns of approval and commendation, not worship as they are not addressed to God.

Of the titles you listed, not one of those titles calls her The Father, The Son or The Holy Spirit.

I’m still not getting your point. Sorry.

 

[justasking4]

happilycatholic;4309003]JustAsking:

Okay, fair enough.

So, praising someone is equal to worship? As I understand, Websters defines praise as an expression of approval and commendation when generally used. When used with God as the subject of the praise, then and only then you get the worship definition.

So these hymns you mention are hymns of approval and commendation, not worship as they are not addressed to God.

Good point. However only God is worthy of these kinds of titles and never of a created being.

Of the titles you listed, not one of those titles calls her The Father, The Son or The Holy Spirit.

Not necessary. Many of these titles are only applicable to God and not man.

I’m still not getting your point. Sorry.

Those titles are making specific statements about Mary that are never said of her in Scripture. Secondly, these kinds of titles should only be spoken of God.

 

[happilycatholic]

Okay, now I get it! The only hymns you sing in church are Psalms! Well, that makes sense, since those are the only hymns that come straight and etirely from the Bible.

Good practice!

That means we’ll just have to give up “Silent Night” at Christmas cause it’s not a Psalm and it definitley mentions the Virgin Mary. I’m sad.

Thanks for your insight JustAsking.

 

[justasking4]

Okay, now I get it! The only hymns you sing in church are Psalms! Well, that makes sense, since those are the only hymns that come straight and etirely from the Bible.

Good practice!

That means we’ll just have to give up “Silent Night” at Christmas cause it’s not a Psalm and it definitley mentions the Virgin Mary. I’m sad.

Thanks for your insight JustAsking.

Mentioning someone in a Christmas carol is not the same as hymn of praise to them as we see in Marian hymns.

 

[happilycatholic]

I apologize. I wasn’t aware that Christmas Carols weren’t hymns of worship since a “carol” is defined as a song of worship celebrating the birth of Christ. Which could be any song of worship…

Incidentally just so you know…“Silent Night” (“Stille Nacht”): The original lyrics of the song Stille Nacht were written in German by the Austrian priest Father Josef Mohr and the melody was composed by the Austrian headmaster Franz Xaver Gruber.

Better stop singing it. It was written by a priest!

 

[RobGentner]

Pixie is right, Rob. If you read your catechism, this is clear. Furthermore, your inappropriate use of this word in this context is dangerously close to violation of the forum rules

**Guan, if you read my post I said Pixie was 100% correct. She is smart but also “nice to a fault” You are WRONG!

If YOU read your catechism, paragraphs 2089 and 2285, among others, we might not be having this conversation at all. My use of the word “Heretic” wan’t inappropriate! It is exactly** like them calling me a CATHOLIC. It is: 1) True! and 2) I should be proud of it!
To say it that they are heretics is “required” of me because, as a brother christian, I am responsible for the salvation of my other brothers and to help him save his soul from damnation.They will even agree with me on that point!
Why do you think I explain that the RCC is the only real church? That it is lead by Jesus Christ and any of the other 59,999 christian denominations by default “must” be lead by Jesus’ enemy “the Devil” andthat their souls are endangered! They disagree with us and mistakenly tell us exactly the same thing. They understand what being a real christian is about. They aren’t experienceing Jesus but the do know of Him!
You think I correct them to insult them? To “hurt their feelings”?

If you do you are WRONG Again! I do it to get them out of the devil’s cluches and into the loving arms of the Blessed Mother Mary and Her Son, Jesus!
In no way was my use of the word “in the context used” anywhere close to violating the forum TOS! I challenge you to Show me!!
Do not be like a Protestant saying something that isn’t true and expecting informed Catholics to just agree with your lies! I am sorry, It isn’t happening here! We are Catholics. We are informed, We love our brother christians and are not only required but also willing to correct error! We own them the attempt to save their souls from eternal damnation! That is why Jesus formed Our Church so all could be saved!

There is only one Church, one Body, one faith, and one baptism. That is why all who are validly baptized are members of the Catholic Church, however improperly joined. There is no “christianity” outside the Catholic Church, so all who are believers in Him are catholic by default.

** Now I also agree with that 100%.
Now it is your tell the Protestants. Tell them that they must obey the Pope or they will commit the sin of schism. That they must Pray to Mary and the Saints, that they must confess their sins, that they must call their priests FATHER. Oh, why am i wasting my time telling you? Yoiu are so much smarter than me. You know what they are required to do better then me. You have a catechism. You are an informed Catholic. You know so much more than me anyway. As you can clearly tell, I am not the brightest crayon in this box! That is for sure! I sure can learn a lot from people like you! I am excited to read the things you write :yawn: Knowiing that not only will I be informed but if I am luckly enough, you might even correct my errors!

Lets pray for all the lost sheep! Oh, can I call them sheep?

**

 

[happilycatholic]

You know as I sit here and read through the posts on this thread I realize that most if not all of the protest is about Mary even though the OP states, Mary and the saints.

Why do protestants feel the need to attack our devotion to the mother of Christ? How do they not see that as blasphemy?