I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[Leeann]

RobGentner (excerpt from Post # 699)

That is true because I just now made up that name! That should stop the poor Protestants from looking for references trying to attack us.
However all the names are true we just don’t pray them as a chaplet!
See, and you guys think that I am mean!

(From list of titles re: Mary)

In all seriousness the ones below should be reviewed don’t you think, out of respect for Jesus*……(you do remember Him don’t you…the one that actually spilled His blood, died and rose again……) *and out of respect for Mary, she’d be mortified to think that any honor and titles afforded to her would be ones that only her son and Savior should have. ( or already has – see “Morning Star” in Revelations).

Bride of Christ – already taken (the church is Christ’s bride)
Only Bridge of God to Man – sorry – already taken (Jesus)
**Fountain of Living Water ** - (Jesus uses that term differently – wouldn’t want to “confuse” anyone)
Morning Star – definitely already taken, very personally by Jesus himself!

Deliverer from all Wrath ???
Gate of Heaven ???

Now I know you have a sense of humour, as you display it so often when posting to others, thought you may see the humour in some of the names as listed below.

**Mediatrix of the Mediator **(now that’s a tongue twister – not to mention mindbender!)

**Never fading wood **(???..whoever began that one must have been having a “low” day)

**Star of the Sea **– already taken (Tuna Fish Company – copyrighted )

**Scepter of Orthodoxy **– (WOW! Sounds important – but not very pretty)

**Workshop of the Incarnation **( you made this one up didn’t you?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now for any who scream out - "how disrespectful to Mary "- it’s not.

Mary, the mother of Jesus, the mother of God, would never accept any “veneration” or “place of honor” that in any way would take the focus from Jesus - she doesn’t need it - she had/has HIM - if, in anyone’s own mind, they see any disrespect - then focus that totally towards the Catholic church and what they’ve done “to” her and “to” the efficacy of His blood sacrifice, by watering it down and making Him “unapproachable” to those that He died for. In that light, Mary would be weeping.

Jesus doesn’t need or want his mother made into something that she wasn’t. He had a woman, a loving, righteous, human being as His mother, as it was intended to be, as it was necessary.
He wants your attention, obedience and full faith placed in HIM…and so does Mary, or else her heart was pierced for nothing.

 

[RobGentner]

You know as I sit here and read through the posts on this thread I realize that most if not all of the protest is about Mary even though the OP states, Mary and the saints.

Why do protestants feel the need to attack our devotion to the mother of Christ? How do they not see that as blasphemy?


**
Hi HappilyCatholic.:tiphat:
Because it isn’t Blasphemy!! :tsktsk: Blasphemy is the disrespectful use of the name of God. We commit the sin of blasphemy under the 2nd commandment “Thou shall not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain”. (Yea, Protestants , I know ,it is your 3rd!) Mary isn’t God!

It might be called: stupid, disrespectful, hateful, evil, dangerous but can not be called Blasphemy:takethat:

They hate their own Mothers is my first guess . :bounce: A Freudian Slip: When they say one thing, but mean their mother?" Never assume malice for what ignorancw can explain!

After they get done insulting God’s Mother, they should start on the saints! :extrahappy: **

 

[happilycatholic]

Hi Rob:

Thanks for the reply but:

Blasphemy is actually defined this way:

A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.
The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.
An irreverent or impious act, attitude, or utterance in regard to something considered inviolable or sacrosanct.

So they’ve blasphemed in more ways than one!

 

[RobGentner]

(From list of titles re: Mary)

In all seriousness the ones below should be reviewed don’t you think, out of respect for Jesus*……(you do remember Him don’t you…the one that actually spilled His blood, died and rose again……) *and out of respect for Mary, she’d be mortified to think that any honor and titles afforded to her would be ones that only her son and Savior should have. ( or already has – see “Morning Star” in Revelations).

Bride of Christ – already taken (the church is Christ’s bride)
Only Bridge of God to Man – sorry – already taken (Jesus)
**Fountain of Living Water ** - (Jesus uses that term differently – wouldn’t want to “confuse” anyone)
Morning Star – definitely already taken, very personally by Jesus himself!

Deliverer from all Wrath ???
Gate of Heaven ???

Now I know you have a sense of humour, as you display it so often when posting to others, thought you may see the humour in some of the names as listed below.

**Mediatrix of the Mediator **(now that’s a tongue twister – not to mention mindbender!)

**Never fading wood **(???..whoever began that one must have been having a “low” day)

**Star of the Sea **– already taken (Tuna Fish Company – copyrighted )

**Scepter of Orthodoxy **– (WOW! Sounds important – but not very pretty)

**Workshop of the Incarnation **( you made this one up didn’t you?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now for any who scream out - "how disrespectful to Mary "- it’s not.

Mary, the mother of Jesus, the mother of God, would never accept any “veneration” or “place of honor” that in any way would take the focus from Jesus - she doesn’t need it - she had/has HIM - if, in anyone’s own mind, they see any disrespect - then focus that totally towards the Catholic church and what they’ve done “to” her and “to” the efficacy of His blood sacrifice, by watering it down and making Him “unapproachable” to those that He died for. In that light, Mary would be weeping.

Jesus doesn’t need or want his mother made into something that she wasn’t. He had a woman, a loving, righteous, human being as His mother, as it was intended to be, as it was necessary.
He wants your attention, obedience and full faith placed in HIM…and so does Mary, or else her heart was pierced for nothing.

**
You make many good points however Leeann, I MADE NOT ONE NAME UP! I have too much respect and Love Our Mother.
No matter how funny, or strange~ They are all Authentic names! I did not make any of them up! Not one.I swear! Many of them are ancient. I only made the “TITLE” about them being “A Chaplet to the Blessed Mother” to play with the Protestants, not us Catholics.
Mary has been called many things~ right or wrong. Our church is over 2,000 years old. The RCC doesn’t “approve” or demand that we say them, like them or even care about them!
Remember GUYS: Our Blessed Mother is not GOD!

We don’t worship her! WE do respect her. Two sources of the names mentioned that Mary has been called are:
www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/1069/Many_Titles_of_Mary___Meredith_Gould.html

www.catholicspirit.blogspot.com/2008/02/titles-of-blessed-virgin-mary.html

If you google some of the stranger ones you may get a dozen or more sites.

God Bless US all. May the Blessed Mother Pray to our Son that we all obtain salvation even the people who disrespect her. We know who they are! :knight2:

and **

 

[happilycatholic]

Can I clear something up?

To say that we as catholics refuse to blaspheme (say anything bad about) Mary does not equal worship.

 

[justasking4]

**
You make many good points however Leeann, I MADE NOT ONE NAME UP! I have too much respect and Love Our Mother.
No matter how funny, or strange~ They are all Authentic names! I did not make any of them up! Not one.I swear! Many of them are ancient. I only made the “TITLE” about them being “A Chaplet to the Blessed Mother” to play with the Protestants, not us Catholics.
Mary has been called many things~ right or wrong. Our church is over 2,000 years old. The RCC doesn’t “approve” or demand that we say them, like them or even care about them!
Remember GUYS: Our Blessed Mother is not GOD!

We don’t worship her! WE do respect her. Two sources of the names mentioned that Mary has been called are:
www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/1069/Many_Titles_of_Mary___Meredith_Gould.html**

www.catholicspirit.blogspot.com/2008/02/titles-of-blessed-virgin-mary.html

If you google some of the stranger ones you may get a dozen or more sites.

God Bless US all. May the Blessed Mother Pray to our Son that we all obtain salvation even the people who disrespect her. We know who they are! :knight2:

and

Why is it necessary to have the “Blessed Mother Pray to our Son that we all obtain salvation” if the Scriptures never command not exhort such a thing?

Secondly, in one of the titles posted on #699 it says that Mary is “Deliverer From All Wrath”. How can this be when it is the Lord Jesus who alone is the One Who does this? See I Thessalonians 1:10—10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

 

[RobGentner]

Hi Rob:

Thanks for the reply but:

Blasphemy is actually defined this way:

A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.
The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.
An irreverent or impious act, attitude, or utterance in regard to something considered inviolable or sacrosanct.

So they’ve blasphemed in more ways than one!

**

I don’t know where you got your defination I got mine from the CCC.
The are heretics I always tell them that and Of course they commit blasphemy every time they put the bible itself before God’s own words told to them by the Church.When they put their own twisted ideas of what is correct before Gods true words as explained by the Real church. They thereby makethemselves “little gods” But in the case of Our Blessed Mother Mary. They do not commit blasphemy~! Mary IS NOT a “Sacred Entity” You Worship things that you consider sacred! To many people the DEVIL is a sacred entity. Because he is an otherworldly entity and is worshipped by “some people”.

I must still state emphatically that We do not Worship Mary!
She is not a sacret Entity! So there is no Blasphemy!
She is a human creature created by GOD! Perfect but Human! She is not a deity or otherworldly entity to be considered sacred.
She is not a god so she isn’t a sacred entity.

You may still not agree with me. If Not, Go ask an Apologist. I’ll wait!

I am only an informed pratical Catholic that desires to be correct. I do not wish to put out invalid information. The Protestants are hoping for salvation through our words. Lets not misguide them! **

 

[RobGentner]

Why is it necessary to have the “Blessed Mother Pray to our Son that we all obtain salvation” if the Scriptures never command not exhort such a thing?

Secondly, in one of the titles posted on #699 it says that Mary is “Deliverer From All Wrath”. How can this be when it is the Lord Jesus who alone is the One Who does this? See I Thessalonians 1:10—10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

**Hi :tiphat: JustAsking4The100thTime!

How are you buddy?

Question One:

It isn’t necessary! However, we enjoy talking to her. In some sinners cases, who shall remain nameless, it might be that little extra push Jesus needs to allow them into heaven. I can tell you two things. 1) It can’t Hurt; 2) It might help!

In the Catholic religion we do not have to believe much about Mary that you aren’t aware of already. Don’t pretend that we are literalists. You know we aren’t! So what the Bible does or doesn’t say doesn’t matter. What it means does! Our church is the authority., not any heretics, eeerrrr I meant Protestants but I repeat myself! weather they think they are or not!. But you knew that!

Question Two:

Some one wrote that Mary is “Deliverer From All Wrath”. Just like someone else wrote in I Thessalonians .That is really interesting!:yawn: It might have even bee the same person making a different point each time! I am so glad you asked. I will check with the Pope for you and find out what He decides. Do me a favor. Hold your breath while you wait …

Now go play with someone else. I have to go down to Planned Parenthood and protest against abortion. We are more than 1/2 way through the 40 days. Only 9 children murdered there this morning.

Seriously, If you do believe in God, ask Him to forgive the Mothers and heal their hearts. The babies are with Jesus you can pray to them for their mother’s healing also. God loves the innocent childeren Even if your mother forgets you, I will never forget you. I have carved your name in the palms of My hands. Isaiah 49:15-16 …

may God have mercy on our Foolish Country and the Devil’s who cause the deaths of innocent children.**

 

[happilycatholic]

Hello Fellow Christians!

I don’t usually quote from the Catechism or the Bible because one can’t use the argument to prove the argument. It just creates a perpetual debate. But for those who aren’t clear on what blasphemy is (catholic or non-catholic) I’ve also posted the dictionary version of the definition as well.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church (commonly abbreviated here as CCC) it states the following:

Blasphemy: Speech, thought or action involving contempt for God or the Church, or persons or things dedicated to God. Blasphemy is directly opposed to the second commandment
(2148).

That is the definition in its entirety.

You do not have to worship the subject in order to be blaspheming against it. And that means that to insist that Mary not be blasphemed does not mean I worship her.

Peace Be With You!

 

[guanophore]

Everything is fair game–

Let’s try to stay focused on the thread topic, ja4. We are discussing the misunderstanding of some Protestants that Catholics worship Mary.

Not sure what you mean here. Can you clarify?

John the Apostle writes that the children of Mary are those that follow the commandments of her son.

Not sure how why you say this in light of the warnings of Scriptures that we are commanded to be on guard against false teachers. We see this for example in 2 Peter 2:1 which says:
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

It is ok, ja4. We know you are here, and we are on guard! :knight
2:

To say i or you have no authority to question our Church is to reject the clear of Scripture.

There are many scriptural examples of people questioning and rebelling against the authority appointed by Christ. The fact that people are able to do this does not mean that they are authorized to do so. Disobedience to those apppointed by God is permitted by God’s providence, but not encouraged.

Secondly the Bible does not derive its authority from the Catholic church but from God Himself. It is God alone Who makes it inspired-inerrant and not any church.

Such a statement indicates a deficient understanding of the Church, and the Scripture. The creation of the Scripture was done through the Church, not separately from it.

Who is the “he” that you are referring to here? Is it the Lord Jesus?

Yes, Jesus loved His mother, and has done great things for her.

Where in Scripture do we find that she alone is above all other creatures?

This is how we understand the referenced to Mary in the New Testatment. However, such a question presupposes an error, that all revelation of God is found in scripture. this is a falsehood.

It is true she was blessed in her role but that does not mean she is above all. The Lord Jesus never exalts her like this. In fact when He had a chance to praise her as such in Luke 11:27-28 He does not and instead says those who are blessed who hear the Word of God and observe it.

Well, we read it differently. We understand that He meant yes, she was blessed because of the honor to bear Him,but EVEN MORE, is she blessed because she was obedient.

Why pray to her when the Scriptures never command such a thing?

Because our Christian life has not been separated from the Apostles who taught the faith, and wrote the NT, so we are not limited to the scriptures, as are those who have been separated.

 

[guanophore]

I agree the church claims it does not claim Mary is divine but the things written about her show otherwise.

You seem to have a deficient notion of praise and worship.

Take this short hymn to her:

**Hail, Holy Queen Enthroned Above **

Hail, holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria.
Hail, Queen of mercy and of love, O Maria.
Triumph, all ye cherubim, Sing with us, ye seraphim,
Heaven and earth resound the hymn:
Salve, salve, salve Regina!
The cause of joy to men below, O Maria.
The spring through which all graces flow, O Maria.
Angels, all your praises bring, Earth and heaven, with us
sing,
All creation echoing:
Salve, salve, salve Regina!

This kind of hymn should only be said of Christ.

Well, we read it differently. However, if you believe this, you can certainly rewrite it for Christ! Mary is pleased when all come to worship Him. You will be next to her, who has never left His side.

This sounds great and convincing but there is no evidence for this. Not one writer of the NT ever claims this of her and they were the ones who knew her best. Jesus never says such a thing about her and He of all would have known if this was the case.

Again this is a speculative claim. It was not Mary who promised to be with us to the end but the Lord Jesus. See Matthew 28:20

.
There is no reason in Scripture that tells us this.

 

[guanophore]

Huh? I thought the Catholic church referrred to Protestants as “separated brethern” and not heretics. Am i correct?

Indeed you are. Those children of the Reformers who have embraced heretical doctrines spawned by them cannot, in most cases, be charged with the sin of heresy. Such a charge requires one to have known the Truth, then depart from it. Most of the descendents of the Reformers never learned the truth.

There in the Scriptures do we find that a person must beong to a church to be saved? If there is such a verse where is it identified as the Roman Catholic church?

I think this belongs on another thread. When we are baptized, we are made members of the Body of C’hrist, the Church. We cannot be joined to Him without being joined to one another. this is one reason we reject the teaching “Christ alone”. Christ chose not to be “alone” but to be in union with His holy bride.

 

[justasking4]

RobGentner;4309593]**Hi :tiphat: JustAsking4The100thTime!

How are you buddy?

Question One:

It isn’t necessary! However, we enjoy talking to her. In some sinners cases, who shall remain nameless, it might be that little extra push Jesus needs to allow them into heaven. I can tell you two things. 1) It can’t Hurt; 2) It might help! **
It can hurt. In 2 Cornithians 11:3 Paul warns about being led astray for from the simplicity and devotion to Christ. No one can be truly devoted to Christ who is also devoted to Mary or anyone else.

In the Catholic religion we do not have to believe much about Mary that you aren’t aware of already. Don’t pretend that we are literalists. You know we aren’t! So what the Bible does or doesn’t say doesn’t matter. What it means does! Our church is the authority.,

Where has your church infallibly interpreted the Scriptures that tells you what it mean? What passage of Scripture does the church use to mean that you are to pray to Mary?

not any heretics, eeerrrr I meant Protestants but I repeat myself! weather they think they are or not!. But you knew that!

No doubt there are some Protestants who have been heretics just as as their are Catholics who are also.
How do you define heresy and what are its characteristics?

Question Two:

Some one wrote that Mary is “Deliverer From All Wrath”. Just like someone else wrote in I Thessalonians .That is really interesting!:yawn: It might have even bee the same person making a different point each time! I am so glad you asked. I will check with the Pope for you and find out what He decides. Do me a favor. Hold your breath while you wait …

No need to check with your pope. Just read the Scriptures and see if you find any place where its says Mary is the “Deliverer From All Wrath” or something like this.

Now go play with someone else. I have to go down to Planned Parenthood and protest against abortion. We are more than 1/2 way through the 40 days. Only 9 children murdered there this morning.

Seriously, If you do believe in God, ask Him to forgive the Mothers and heal their hearts. The babies are with Jesus you can pray to them for their mother’s healing also. God loves the innocent childeren Even if your mother forgets you, I will never forget you. I have carved your name in the palms of My hands. Isaiah 49:15-16 …

may God have mercy on our Foolish Country and the Devil’s who cause the deaths of innocent children.

 

[Yeshualuver]

1. The Bible defines blasphemy as anything that misrepresents or distorts the character and/or the purposes of God. In several places the Lord chastises Israel for her behavior as blaspheming His Holy Name.
2. Where or where in Scripture (and not the CCC) does it EVER describe, the praying to anyone or anything else other than to the Holy One, blessed be He, as anything other than idolatry or blasphemy?! You won’t find it because prayers offered to anyone other than God are ALWAYS considered blasphemous and idolatrous.
3. Does the Catholic church worship Mary and/or the saints? Well, it can protest all it wants to that it doesn’t, but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck…it’s a duck. I hear most Catholics (and I’m around a lot of them) offering more thanks to Mary and prayers to saints rather than to the Lord. You see more statues (ick) of Mary and saints than of Jesus (as if anyone really knows what these people looked like anyway).

Someone once said let me take a look at your checkbook register and I’ll tell you who your god is. I say notice how many prayers you direct to Mary and/or saints and I’ll tell you who you really worship despite what your prostestations and vocabulary (ie: veneration vs. adoration) say. Those are just words, nomenclature, to justify idolatry and spiritual adultery.

For instance, I talked to a friend of mine recently who is a Catholic, when I told her that I had prayed to God to show me where something I had lost of hers that was of great sentimental value to her. I told her that God literally gave me a vision of where it was and it was exactly there when I looked. I gave thanks to God.

Her response: “My mother always prayed to St. Anthony since he’s the patron saint of lost items.”

My response: “Well, I go straight to his boss because the Bible says I can in Christ.”

 

[Leeann]

**Yeshualuver:
Her response: “My mother always prayed to St. Anthony since he’s the patron saint of lost items.”

My response: “Well, I go straight to his boss because the Bible says I can in Christ.”**

AMEN!!!

 

[Ag_not]

1. 1. Where or where in Scripture (and not the CCC) does it EVER describe, the praying to anyone or anything else other than to the Holy One, blessed be He, as anything other than idolatry or blasphemy?! You won’t find it because prayers offered to anyone other than God are ALWAYS considered blasphemous and idolatrous.

Not according to these quotes from Scripture:

Scripture

I. We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth
Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

Heb. 12:1: we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses. The “cloud of witnesses” refers to the saints who are not only watching us from above but cheering us on in our race to heaven.

1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.

2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.

1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”

Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.

II. God Desires and Responds to Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer
1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

 

[Ag_not]

Continued:/

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 - “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ’s work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God’s people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

 

[Ag_not]

OT referrences:/

Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham’s intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.

Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.

Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God’s response to Moses’ saintly intercession.

1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn’t continue to intercede for the people of Israel.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).

1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul’s practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.

2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God’s holy habitation in heaven and were answered.

Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah’s prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.

Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.

Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.

Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.

Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.

Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.

Isaiah 6:6-7 - an angel touches Isaiah’s lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God who effects the forgiveness of sins on God’s behalf.

Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people’s ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.

Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.

Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.

Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.

Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.

Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.

2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.

 

[Ag_not]

Venerating saints:/

Matt. 18:10 - the angels in heaven always behold the face of God. We venerate them for their great dignity and union with God.

Matt. 15:4; Luke 18:20; Eph. 6:2-3 Exodus 20:12; Lev. 19:3; Deut. 5:16 - we are instructed to honor our father and mother.

Luke 1:28 - the angel Gabriel venerates Mary by declaring to her “Hail, full of grace.” The heavenly angel honors the human Mary, for her perfection of grace exceeds that of the angels.

Romans 13:7 - we are to give honor where honor is due. When we honor God’s children, we honor God Himself, for He is the source of all honor.

1 Cor. 4:16 - the most important form of veneration of the saints is “imitating” the saints, as Paul commands us to do.

1 Cor. 11:1 - again, Paul says, “Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” The ultimate objective of veneration is imitation.

Phil. 2:25-29 - Paul teaches us to honor Epaprhoditus who almost died for the faith. How much more honor is owed to the saints that did die for the faith!

Phil. 3:17 - Paul says to imitate him and others, which is the goal of veneration. Veneration is not worship.

1 Thess. 1:6 – Paul says to the Thessalonians, “You became imitators of us and of the Lord.” This is the goal of veneration.

2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul says that the Thessalonians should imitate him and the other bishops.

Hebrews 3:3 - Jesus is worthy of “more” glory and honor than Moses. This does not mean that the saints are worthy of no glory and honor. Instead, it proves that saintly people are worthy of glory and honor out of God’s goodness.

Heb. 6:12 – the author teaches us to be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Heb. 13:7 - we must imitate the faith of our faithful leaders. We ask for their intercession and venerate them for their holiness.

James 5:10-11 – James teaches us to take heart in the examples of the prophets and Job, who endured suffering.

1 Peter 2:17 - Peter teaches us to honor all men, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor. Don’t those living with Christ in heaven deserve honor? Catholics believe they do, and honor them with special feast days, just as we honor those living by celebrating their birthdays.

Gen. 19:1 - Lot venerates the two angels in Sodom, bowing himself with his face to the ground.

Gen. 42:6 - Joseph’s brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground. This is veneration, not worship.

Exodus 28:2 - it is especially important to honor religious leaders. Sacred garments for Aaron give him dignity and honor.

Lev. 19:32- we should also honor “the face of an old man.” When the elderly die in Christ, we should continue honoring them, because death does not separate them from us or the love of Christ.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in veneration.

2 Chron. 32:33 - Hezekiah was honored at his death. We honor our brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Sir. 44:1-2 - we should praise and give honor to those who the Lord apportioned great glory. It is our family in Christ.

 

[LilyM]

Her response: “My mother always prayed to St. Anthony since he’s the patron saint of lost items.”

My response: “Well, I go straight to his boss because the Bible says I can in Christ.”

Yes you surely can, just like you can march straight up to George W. Bush (assuming you can get near him) and tell him your concerns and ask him to do something about them.

Isn’t it just common sense, however, that you’d be more likely to be heard by Dubya, and get a worthwhile result, if you first approached Barbara, Dubya’s mother, or Jeb his brother, or any other close relation or friend of his, and asked them to help you present your request to Dubya?

What else COULD James possibly be saying, when he says that ‘the prayers of a righteous man availeth much’, except that the prayers of the less-righteous or the unrighteous avail less or not at all? And therefore that there ARE some whose prayers God is more likely to listen to than others? And who could possibly be more righteous than those who we know are already in heaven? That being the case, is it not utterly contrary to logic NOT to enlist the aid of those Saints who are already in His presence in heaven to present our prayers to Him?