I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[guanophore]

One does not need to be infallible to know the truth.

I agree! So, why did you say on another post that you wish you had an infallible source?

How can a fallible man or organization ever become infallible?

God.

The same way that the scriptures were infallibly penned. The HS moved through people to create them. When God creates something, it is perfect, even if He uses an infallible source. I know you believe this, because, in spite of the fact that you deny the immaculate conception of Mary, you still believe that Christ, who came from her body, is perfect.

The council in Jerusalem rendered an infallible decision, because the HS was with them.

That’s impossible. It does not mean though they cannot be right at times though.

How can you say this? The scripture, which you claim as your ultimate source of authority, states the opposite! All things are possible with God!

Such a statement reinforces my perceptions of your anti-Catholicism realy being rooted in a faithlessness in God.

  Not if they have facts that are properly used.

This places human reason above the revelation of God as a source of Truth. Instead of accepting what God has revealed, as Peter recognized who Jesus was, you will fall back on human reason, which will fall short every time.

The difference between you and me or your crew that works under name is that i love the truth and i’m willing to defend the truth while you are not.

Certainly not the kind of truth you are proposing. If we are to replace “facts properly used” for the Revelation of God, then you can have the whole responsibility for defending it, I happily concede. I prefer the Revelation fo God about Himself. This is what Peter received, and not the “common sense” or gallup poll of “whom do men say that I am”.

 

[guanophore]

Proof that I have to be in the CC to fully invelope the grace of god? (I want bible scripture, no saints, unless they are teh disciples)

Where in the bible does it say the Church is the only true salvation? (I do not care what the “church” says to be honest, I care about what Jesus, or the disciples said, other then that…)

This attitude of rebellion is what separates us from one another. Jesus founded a Church, built upon the foundation of the Apostles an prophets. The Apostles made it clear that when we are baptized into Christ, we are made members one of another. To say “I don’t care” who Christ has joined to me is to rebel against our brother,and against Him.

Jesus did not do anything spurious. If He had not wanted a Church, He would not have founded one.

 

[RobGentner]

**

Proof that I have to be in the CC to fully develope the grace of god? (I want bible scripture, no saints, unless they are the disciples)

**Well YOU could read the BIBLE. (small book many big words, twisted and distorted by protestants!)
However, I already gave you proof!
In the OT, your 5th Commandment,(Catholic’s 4th) it says: Honor thy Father and Mother. You do realize in Hebrew tradition at that time, thy Father and Mother meant all enders? They are your parants in the jewish religion. All united right? You do know that don’t you? So what God actually say was: Honor your elders!

Don’t believe me? OK , ask some protestants to verify that for you since you appear to think Catholics lie. By the way, ask many protestants** You all don’t follow Gods teachings and all get confused. After all 33,000 false denominations not counting the 28,000 sub-denominations of the faith. If you are a southern baptist. You are a mamber of about 1,350 different denominations teaching 43 or more major differences in beliefs. Asking a Catholic would be much easier, We all beleve the same things. (In various degree I must add to not lie)

Anyway I am 49 years older than you! I told you:

“1 ) You don’t have to accept the CC as your church. But without the grace of the CC no one can get to heaven. If you want to fully worship God as he wants to be worshiped you should join the CC.”

Now, If you call me a liar you dishonor me. If you refuse to accept what I tell you as true you dishonor me. You will be breaking the 5 commandment on purpose!

** (I want bible scripture, no saints, unless they are the disciples)**

**
Have you ever heard the expression: "Want in one hand? What do you think makes you so special that we should do your work for you? Find out yourself!
Hint: Jesus said Peter was the rock. We are the church of Jesus! He also said No one comes to the ather except through me.
Jesus is the head of the church, the CC is his body here on earth guided by the HS.
You have to go to the heretics for bible scripture catholics use truth, Logic, and wisdom, that we obtain from the Original Church’s teachings, both oral and written traditions.**Here is your Homework :
Read this figure out what it means and come back I will quiz you to see how twisted your beliefs are at the present time. We may be able to make a Tiber swimmer out of you Yet!

I JOHN :
The Word of Life
1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And we are writing these things so that our [1] joy may be complete.

Walking in the Light
5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
**

Were in the bible does it say the Church is the only true salvation? (I do not care what the “church” says to be honest, I care about what Jesus, or the disciples said, other then that…)
**

Aren’t you just precious! Your mother and father must simply worship you! :extrahappy: Anyway it says it in many places! All throughout the New Testement. Ask your minister where the Bible gave your church authority in the bible. Write down what he says. Then remember that The bible was written by our people for us. Your people “borrowed” it and changed things. But the authority your pricher claims is actuallt the authority God and Jesus gave the real church that isn’t a counterfeit or imitation. Like Coke it is the real thing! The “Church” is JESUS here on Earth.

What you said is like saying "I don’t care what Jesus says. I want to read through a library of books and figure out what he wants me to do. How foolish… Pray to Jesus, ask for Hios forgiveness. He will forgive you. Us Catholics already have. Hint: Ask Jesus’s Mom, she will put in a good word for you to her Son!

By the way. At the secret Catholic Posters Meeting, we discussed you. They said that If you don’t start conversations. By that they mean TALKING! instead of “demanding” answers to your petty questions, They may ignore you. They said we are not here to answer your every question. We are here to discuss things. I told them off, I am here to instruct the ignorant, correct the mis-informed, save heretics, and spread Love to a unlovable and often unloved group, our separate brethren! ! They didn’t like that!
Some of the “mean” Catholics are getting sick and tired of your snotty condescending and arrogant attitude and told me to talk to you since I was the only one that defended you. I know you are really a nice kid that is just surrounded with Satan and his teaching. I said when he knows better he will do better! Well Kid, now that you Know better, do better!

Go and sin no more!

**

 

[RobGentner]

It would almost be worth doing, just to see how many other Catholics join in.

Then again, maybe I don’t want to know how many other Catholics would join in.

**

Hi PeterJ,:tiphat:

Did you see? This thread will end soon,:crying: only about another 150 posting.

I propose we start a new one Titled:" I am getting sick and tired of hearing Catholics deny that they worship mary and the saints!"
JustAsking4The100thTime or Solo_scriptura or the Kid, ChristianKnight might be willing to start it!

By the way all Catholic Posters:

~ “Group Huddle”!
Notice: IAW the TOS, under subparagraph 2.7 No one is permitted to read a "group huddle"If they are not addressed in the call for such huddle Violation will be reported to the Mods.

Therefore, Protestant posters Do not read the following:

(Ok now, while the protestants can’t read. I have to ask: Why do we keep denying we don’t worship mary? They already figured it out? I mean what harm would it do for us to just say. “Ok you caught us! We worhip mary”? It would make them feel better. The thread is getting short and frankly they are wearing me down! :coolinoff: Just think about it, we will talk later. Have your people, call my people. )

**This ends the Group Huddle, you may continue posting now! **

I’m reminded of a Far Side cartoon, where God looks at His created earth, then picks up a shaker labeled “JERKS” to pour over the planet with the thought, “Hmmm, just to make things interesting…”

**

**I lifted this off another thread! Don’t tell anyone OK?

It made me angry and I told him that it wasn’t funny and I think it is very close to a TOS violation! He is just lucky that I am not Protestant! The nerve of some people! Like being a heretic isn’t bad enough! He has to go and accuse them of being Jerks also? Well, he better watch his step around me! :jrbirdman: No one insult my separate brethren like that! Isn’t it enough that they have to endure the agnoy of being called Devil worshippers and evil by some people? Is there no kindness, no compassion left?:takethat: I for one will not stand for it! :extrahappy:

I feel better now!

Lets all pray: Hail Mary Full of Grace,

Hey, Protestants I SAID ALL! :tsktsk: Start again!

Hail Mary, Full of Grace
The Lord is with thee
Blessed are thou among Women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.
Amen!

Next Tibet Swimming Class tomorrow same time, same place. Don’t be later~ **

 

[Ag_not]

Ok now, while the protestants can’t read. I have to ask: Why do we keep denying we don’t worship mary? They already figured it out? I mean what harm would it do for us to just say. “Ok you caught us! We worhip mary”? It would make them feel better. The thread is getting short and frankly they are wearing me down! :coolinoff: Just think about it, we will talk later. Have your people, call my people.

I think I might have just had a little accident

That is just the funniest thing ever

 

[RobGentner]

you could always stop hanging out with protestants

**Hi Sola,:tiphat:

What and miss all the fun?**

are they omnipresent? Can they hear your prayers? Is there any apostolic authority giving license to this practice? If so please share.

**Of course they are! Yup! Don’t need any, but we do have the Pope. Anyway Jesus gave us the authority. Thanks for asking! **

knowledgeable Protestants understand the difference between veneration and worship, however, we object to the doctrine all the same.

** Sola, ever hear of an oximoron? Hmmm, now what made me think of that??..Knowledgeable Pro… Oh, Now I see. :doh2: How about Nonya? Like in it is nonya business what we believe? **

Most Christians believe the saints are all alive (whether departed or not), that’s really not the issue is it? The question is whether it’s valid to view them in an intercessory role, are they omnipresent in a way that allows them to hear our prayers, and so on.

Yes, Like Jesus prayed to them He can permit His Body to pray to them. Good question I wonder if Protestants can talk to them also. Hey Sola, do you hear any voices? (Hint if you do~ they aren’t Saints!)

I wouldn’t say that – though I’ve been accused of saying many things Catholics don’t like (and I probably won’t stop saying them). The Catholic Churches simply focus too much on Mary and I do think the doctrine of saintly intercession is extremely problematic from a doctrinal perspective.

She doesn’t care, and your opinion doesn’t matter so problem solved!
There is absolutely no precedent for venerating the departed – however, we will not agree on this issue so frankly it’s sort of a waste of time to discuss it in a real way.
**Sola, It is all throughout the OT and several places in the NT. Open those eyes **

After all I’m left arguing with it’s right because the RCC says it’s right – regardless of how much logic supports my view.

Yea, Logic, Hahahahahaha

and church documents are not the word of God.

**Sola… The Bible is made up of only church documents. Are you in one of the protestant sects that don’t believe the bible is the word of God? Does your faith also deny that Jesus was God? I know some protestant denominations do. I thing 590 or more of the 33,000 of you feel tha, if my memory serves me correctly. **

thankfully long gone are the days when Catholics can force us to do anything.
**Hey, I am sory we had to clean house. There were a lot of so called christians that believed all kind of Evil things. Like a barrel of apple we had to get rid of the rotten ones. Maybe some good apples got thrown out also. I appologize if that was the case! I am working hard to have it fixed! :coffeeread: **

you can say it all you want – it will never bother me. If you really believe venerating saints will do you any good then why do you care what we think?

**WE don’t! **

we’re not all Pentecostals

**but you are all Heretics!

I love you guy, keep in touch.

Kiss the wife for me, err, unless you consider that “worship”. If so, just shake her hand for me. That could only be considered veneration I will check with the Pope and get back to you!

God Bless**

 

[sola_scriptura]

Rob:

Funny – don’t you know we’re the predestined elect?

One of these days the RCC will cave in and name John Calvin a saint, but it will still won’t convince us to join

Anyway, good to talk to you too pal!!!

 

[RobGentner]

Rob:

**Funny – don’t you know we’re the predestined elect?

One of these days the RCC will cave in and name John Calvin a saint, but it will still won’t convince us to join

Anyway, good to talk to you too pal!!!**

Sola, My friend!
You are really funny! :extrahappy: Which calvanistic denomination do you get all your misinformation from? Do you guys also worship John Calvin like some of the others do? Was it true about the "missing money? You don’t think it was all about the money do you? I sure don’t! I think it was plain old wanting to be like God! Make his own church, get power. I understand that concept. Not bad but boy it could anger God!

I could actually see John Calvin, John Smith, and others becoming saints. Look at the good they did for the CC! I will leave it at that.

Lucerfer is a Angel! Calvin deserves to be a saint. We will assign him under Lucerfer. Hmmm I wonder where God send him??

There is a saying if a person has no sense of humor he probably has no sense at all. Do not tell PeterJ I told you that. He will think I was talking about him! Boy, Some people!

Love YA!

God Bless

 

[LilyM]

are they omnipresent? Can they hear your prayers?

What in tarnation does omnipresence have to do with anything? Do I have to be present with you to hear you? I’m doing just fine over an internet cable from half a world away

If every single person in creation were all simultaneously praying to Mary - well, only then you could possibly have a point, and you know that ain’t happening, of course. You for one aren’t

But if the Devil had power to show Jesus ‘all the kingdoms of the world’, and John had power to hear and see ‘all the people in heaven, on earth and under the earth’ simultaneously praising God in Revelation, then why is it so impossible for Mary to have the power to hear those (comparatively few) individuals who call upon her, even if it’s more than you or I could handle at one time (even then there are such things as answering machines … just sayin’ )

Clearly such a feat neither approaches the uniquely divine characteristic of omnipresence nor is God unwilling to grant such powers on occasion.

 

[sola_scriptura]

What in tarnation does omnipresence have to do with anything? Do I have to be present with you to hear you? I’m doing just fine over an internet cable from half a world away

This must be a reoccurring theme among Catholics. I was on a protestant web board earlier this evening & a Catholic friend who posts on the board used the analogy of cell phone voice mail.

So now the saints are wired in like our cell phone and cable infrastructure? Is this what they tell you guys at mass? I’m sorry but I’m laughing my brains out right now.

If every single person in creation were all simultaneously praying to Mary - well, only then you could possibly have a point, and you know that ain’t happening, of course. You for one aren’t

But if the Devil had power to show Jesus ‘all the kingdoms of the world’, and John had power to hear and see ‘all the people in heaven, on earth and under the earth’ simultaneously praising God in Revelation, then why is it so impossible for Mary to have the power to hear those (comparatively few) individuals who call upon her, even if it’s more than you or I could handle at one time (even then there are such things as answering machines … just sayin’ )

First, poor analogies and frankly not even accurate depictions. First, John’s revelation was given by an angel, and He didn’t exactly view all of heaven in a single observation. Secondly, Satan does actually have a great deal of power. He is obviously at least substantially omnipresent because he is able to tempt people throughout the world simultaniously. However, there is nothing to lend any validity to the notion that all who die in Christ are granted this level of power.

Clearly such a feat neither approaches the uniquely divine characteristic of omnipresence nor is God unwilling to grant such powers on occasion.

Look the entire doctrine is an argument from silence. If I were to say God created pink elephants but they became extinct long ago you wouldn’t be able to prove me wrong would you? It’s a bizarre doctrine with no precedent in sober Judeo-Christian doctrine.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Sola, My friend!
You are really funny! :extrahappy: Which calvanistic denomination do you get all your misinformation from? Do you guys also worship John Calvin like some of the others do? Was it true about the "missing money? You don’t think it was all about the money do you? I sure don’t! I think it was plain old wanting to be like God! Make his own church, get power. I understand that concept. Not bad but boy it could anger God!

I could actually see John Calvin, John Smith, and others becoming saints. Look at the good they did for the CC! I will leave it at that.

Lucerfer is a Angel! Calvin deserves to be a saint. We will assign him under Lucerfer. Hmmm I wonder where God send him??

There is a saying if a person has no sense of humor he probably has no sense at all. Do not tell PeterJ I told you that. He will think I was talking about him! Boy, Some people!

Love YA!

God Bless

You’ve been so misguided by the RCC it’s hard to know where to start? OK I know, it’s John Smyth, not Smith (although in fairness I’m not Baptist).

 

[Leeann]

Hi LilyM!

Originally posted by RobGentner:
Sorry nothing in the Bible says that it is the “complete message” that is written in your head! . It does mention false prophets making their own churches. In fact we have miles of other books and oral tradition that proves you wrong!

Response by Leeann:
Rob - think for a minute - Jesus himself said…“repent and believe the gospel”…was He telling them to believe in an “unfinished gospel”??? The “miles” of other books and oral tradition you have only prove the amount of heresies that have crept in.

LilyM to Leeann:
Do I really need to point out that Jesus DIDN’T write the New Testament and THEN tell His followers to believe in His Gospel. The New Testament wasn’t begun to be written until approximately 20 years or more after He said those words, and certainly wasn’t complete until a good 60 years or so after His death.

Do I really need to point out that the “Gospel” that I’m referring too, is not the “Canonical Gospel” – “The New Testament” – but it is the “good news” – the gospel message that had already been preached by John the Baptist and the gospel message that Jesus himself preached to the multitudes.

What Jesus had already said, was *later *recorded and put down in “writing” after His death by the “Gospel” writers. These writings are often referred too as “the books of the Gospel” (good news)…or…”the Canonical Gospel.” In other books of the New Testament we also see the “gospel message” presented – that being of the atoning blood of Jesus, its complete and whole effectiveness for our salvation, if we believe and repent and obey.

LilyM:
His Gospel, for those who insist on confining that Gospel to the written word, was very much unfinished for many decades, so it is in fact sola scripturists who are the ones who, if one takes their logic to its right conclusion, believe that Jesus told us to follow an incomplete Gospel - it not having all been written down by the time He died.

But that’s just it….it’s the other way around…we clearly understand that the “written word” was the result of His Gospel message…His life and teachings to His disciples and that the “written word” came after.

His gospel message was “complete” when He spoke it and lived it and passed it on to His disciples……nothing needed to be added to it……it is you who is implying that Jesus would command people to believe in a message that didn’t have all the necessary information for their salvation.- That would be an “incomplete gospel message”.

Let’s see what was recorded, after both John the Baptist and Jesus preached the gospel and after these writers witnessed His life and teachings.

Mark Ch.1 : V14
*14 And after that John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, **preaching the gospel ***of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying: The time is accomplished, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe the gospel.

John 3:16
*For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. *
Romans 10:8-9
The word is near thee, in thy mouth and in thy heart:
that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord,
and shalt believe in thine heart
that God has raised him from among the dead,
thou shalt be saved.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[Leeann]

Hi LilyM (continuation from your post)

LilyM:
For that matter He said and did much more AFTER saying those words, no? Surely your logic demands that His gospel be complete at the time he said them? If it was completed five minutes or five days later, your argument is equally as invalid as if it was 2,000 years.

Of course He did, but these things were obviously not necessary for the “salvation of mankind” or in any way a significant part of God’s plan for salvation, or these other things that He said and did would surely have been recorded. The necessary and most serious areas had been covered and understood by the Apostles – Jesus surely wouldn’t have sent them out with “half a message” that would be of no use to anyone, would He?

Col 1 22-23
22 Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him:

23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, **which is preached in all the creation **that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister.

Col 2 1-9
1 For I would have you know, what manner of care I have for you and for them that are at Laodicea, and whosoever have not seen my face in the flesh: 2 That their hearts may be comforted, being instructed in charity, and unto all riches of fulness of understanding, unto the knowledge of the mystery of God the Father and of Christ Jesus: 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 Now this I say, that no man may deceive you by loftiness of words. 5 For though I be absent in body, yet in spirit I am with you; rejoicing, and beholding your order, and the steadfastness of your faith which is in Christ. 6 As therefore you have received Jesus Christ the Lord, walk ye in him; 7 Rooted and built up in him, and confirmed in the faith, as also you have learned, abounding in him in thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ: 9 **For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally; 10 And you are filled in him, who is the head of all principality and power: **

 

[RobGentner]

Hi LilyM!

Do I really need to point out that the “Gospel” that I’m referring too, is not the “Canonical Gospel” – “The New Testament” – but it is the “good news” – the gospel message that had already been preached by John the Baptist and the gospel message that Jesus himself preached to the multitudes.
**
Hi LeeAnn, :tiphat:
Only if you don’t want some of these mean people to call you stupid or some other slanderous remark. They are mean here not friendly like you and me! I can’t stay on long answering the others dumb questions.
I have to run back out to the protest line at Planned parenthood. I have from 3 to 4 AM! Wish me luck! All the nuts aren’t on this thread! **
What Jesus had already said, was *later *recorded and put down in “writing” after His death by the “Gospel” writers. These writings are often referred too as “the books of the Gospel” (good news)…or…”the Canonical Gospel.” In other books of the New Testament we also see the “gospel message” presented – that being of the atoning blood of Jesus, its complete and whole effectiveness for our salvation, if we believe and repent and obey.

**
We called them “Our Books”. Now be honest (I won’t report you.) Did your church steal some of our books? Or just borrowed them? Was there library cards in the back? If so we want them back. Some others may leave and might need our books to start their own phony religions! **

But that’s just it….it’s the other way around…we clearly understand that the “written word” was the result of His Gospel message…His life and teachings to His disciples and that the “written word” came after. His gospel message was “complete” when He spoke it and lived it and passed it on to His disciples……nothing needed to be added to it……it is you who is implying that Jesus would command people to believe in a message that didn’t have all the necessary information for their salvation.- That would be an “incomplete gospel message”.

**LeeAnn, Do you drink? There has been rumors. I just want to cut them off at the bottom! Is it medication? You can tell me. **

Let’s see what was recorded, after both John the Baptist and Jesus preached the gospel and after these writers witnessed His life and teachings.

Mark Ch.1 : V14
*14 And after that John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, **preaching the gospel ***of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying: The time is accomplished, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe the gospel.

John 3:16
*For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. *
Romans 10:8-9
The word is near thee, in thy mouth and in thy heart:
that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord,
and shalt believe in thine heart
that God has raised him from among the dead,
thou shalt be saved.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

**Yup that all is taken from the books that are missing.
I have to run. I will tell you something I shouldn’t share, but what the heck who reads stuff on this thread anyway?

At the Secret Catholic Meeting when we were discussing the evil people on this Thread. Your Buddy Cinette had some very nice things to say about you. Some of the “mean” ones thought you were a child of the devil and evil person with no chance at salvation. Cinette spoke up immediately and said that she thought you would if you repented and prayed to the Blessed Mother Mary for your salvation! … Now wasn’t that nice of her!

She is a saint! So kind even with heretics who are hopelessly confused and lost she extends her hand in friendship! I know that you and I do it also, but not as often as she does.She deserves better than this Thread that is for sure. What with all the liers and sinners fighting to post their slander and hateful things against Mary and the Saints. Calling Jesus and God Himself liers! How dare they! Quoting scripture that proves they don’t have any idea what is true!
Anyway, Cinette is a kind soul, (sexy also.) Don’t let anyone know I said that, please! Anyway, you should be glad she is your friend!

Have a nice night as I said wish me luck. am going to Vote tomorrow! I may vote for Obama than go join a protestant church!:bigyikes:

Bye

**

 

[Leeann]

**Hi LilyM! **

LilyM:
But we who know the truth know that He passed on an ORAL Gospel, not a written one - an ORAL Gospel that contains all our current Traditions (including many that you believe in, such as the canon of written scripture itself, and truths about Jesus being one person with two natures, human and divine) and Magisterial teachings.

So, by the truth that you know, all of those people were not getting the “full” message of what was necessary for their salvation when they heard Jesus speak.
He just left them with a “bit of the gospel”…commanded them to repent and believe in “a bit of the gospel”….extra stuff will come later……if they were still alive by then that is….

As for the ORAL Gospel containing all your “current Traditions” and the “Magisterial teachings” – if they veer away – or add to the gospel that was taught and preached – it’s not the same gospel – it’s “another gospel”.

Gal 1:6- 12
6 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. 7 Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 **But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. **9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Paul was addressing the Galatians with regards to false teaching that had crept in,the Galatians had **already “received” the gospel **the important stuff.

LilyM:
Why? Because Jesus is STILL AMONG US! (‘behold, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, until the end of the world’) and yet, being still among us, you choose to believe that He has remained silent and dumb for nigh on 2,000 years?

Those are your words and your “opinion” with regards to what I believe.
I believe He is alive and well and speaks volumes on a daily basis to those who know and hear His voice.
I also believe what He said:

16 And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And seeing them they adored: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

He commissioned them to teach, baptize and to observe all things that He had commanded them. And they did, at that time (not things that would later be divulged to them or to anybody else) **but the necessary things for the salvation of mankind. **His promise to ‘be with them always’ – or as it is translated in the passage above – ‘to the consummation of the world’ – stood true to them, as it is evident by their writings that they were doing what He had commanded them to do….nothing more and nothing less. However when the pure gospel message began to become contaminated with extra “conditions” that watered down His blood sacrifice, veering from the “truth” and becoming “another gospel” with added rules and regulations in how salvation may be obtained….I’d say that promise would be nullified and voided by Him immediately, wouldn’t you? For instance – Jesus never stated ever that **in order to obtain salvation **you must belong to the “Catholic church” or any “one church” at all…and neither did any of His Apostles. I’d say that was a BIG alteration to His original commission and establishment of the church as is was known back then.

The difference is – that the gospel that Jesus preached and taught to His Apostles was sufficient for those they preached too back then - for their “salvation”….why would they leave out any **pertinent information **with regards to a person’s salvation?

The **gospel of Jesus **is as sufficient for those who hear it today- as it was back then.

Because it is the pure, unadulterated truth.

This “oral gospel” that you refer too (containing your traditions) does not bring into affect “our salvation” – if that were true, then what you are implying is that all of those people that Jesus himself preached too and all those that the Apostles preached too and all those who, over the centuries, who missed out on the “developing revelations” and dogmas, that the Catholic church’s Magisterium has been gathering and intertwining within the Gospel that Jesus and the Apostles actually taught – **all those people **didn’t receive the “whole truth” that was **necessary for them to obtain “salvation”. **

 

[LilyM]

Hi LilyM (continuation from your post)

Of course He did, but these things were obviously not necessary for the “salvation of mankind” or in any way a significant part of God’s plan for salvation, or these other things that He said and did would surely have been recorded.

But they WERE recorded! They were recorded in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, in the writings of the Popes, in the documents of the Church Councils (many of which, from Nicea to Hippo and Carthage, YOU accept as being HIS teaching - for example on the Canon of the Bible, the Trinity and the Nature of Christ!) and in Church councils and Papal writings down to our own day!

Think about John, having a special revelation from God regarding His teaching, which John was required to pass on for the benefit of all the faithful. Then remember that this happened 50 YEARS after Christ’s death, and thus not related, clearly, to anything He physically said and did while on Earth, no? Not something He PHYSICALLY taught or commanded, then, but just as surely His infallible teaching as if He had.

Think about Nicea teaching those wonderful truths about the nature of the God-Man in its Creed (which many non-Catholics proudly recite, as do we), surely infallibly since you accept them as well as we do - and remember that this was HUNDREDS of years after His death, but He was just as surely speaking HIS truth and teaching through the Fathers of that Council.

Oh yes, God still speaks, and His teachings ARE recorded :yup:

 

[RobGentner]

You’ve been so misguided by the RCC it’s hard to know where to start? OK I know, it’s John Smyth, not Smith (although in fairness I’m not Baptist).

**

Sola,

Did I say something that was wrong? Please correct me if I did. Do you have scriputural references to back it up? That would be the christian thing wouldn’t it? Where does it say in scripture that I am misguided? Was the RCC mention by name? How can you be sure it was actually meant? Why is it fair your aren’t baptist? Are they misguided? Did John Smith changed his name to Smyth? was there any reason? drugs, missing money? slanders and false teachings? Were the saints involved. Where does the Bible state that? (That was an example of what it is like being question by a protestant on this thread!)

Anyway to answer yuor question. Although you didn’t answer mine! You could “Start with the truth!” Oh wait I forgot~ :doh2: I am sorry! That would never work! Protestant!
What was I thinking?
For your information John Smith was the youngest “self confessed” dope addict His story was he had some “silver tables given to him by an angel” Ready for this? He misplaced them. Anyway he founded the Moron, errrrr Morman church!
See you were wrong again, I of course am never wrong.Study your religions it won’t make you right just smarter. An informed heretic is almost a real catholic as the old saying I just made up goes!

I like baptist! Really they believe “Everything” They actually have no real understanding of what they do believe! What with their various associations, conferences, conventions, fellowships, groups, and unions around the world even Baptists can’t even keep accurate track of their own sub-denominations. :bounce: There are about 50 just in the USA many of which may also have modified its groups doctrinal stance to Free and General Baptists:

Unlike Catholicism, Baptist can only trace their church’s existence to 1639 when founded by Roger Williams in the area that would become the city of Providence. Side by side with the larger body of Baptists, Ten sects also exist. They are found chiefly in the USA. I have not listed their historical and doctrinal relationships by their historical connection to the three “Original doctrinal variations” of Baptist. I actually think that might be close to impossible. Besides some of the groups probably have modified their doctrinal stance to Free and General Baptists as we speak.

(1) The Baptist Church of Christ originated about 1808, Its doctrine is a mild form of Calvinism, with belief in a general atonement and admission of feet-washing as religious ordinance.

(2) The Campbellites, Disciples of Christ, or Christians, date back as a distinct religious body to the early part of the nineteenth century. They are the outgrowth of that movement which manifested itself simultaneously in some of the religious denominations in the United States in favor of the Bible alone without creeds.

(3) The Dunkards (German: tunken, “to dip”), German Baptists, or Brethren, were founded about 1708 in Germany By 1729 they had all emigrated to the USA. Today divisions have taken place among them. They practice threefold immersion, Their communion service, preceded by the agape, are held in the evenings.

(4) The Freewill Baptists correspond in doctrine and practice to the English General Baptists, but originated in the United States. They exist in two distinct bodies. The older was founded in 1729. Many of its members subsequently joined the Regular Baptists. Those who did not unite became known as the “Free Willers” and later as the “Original Freewill Baptists”. The larger body of the “Freewill Baptists” was founded in 1780. The denomination spread throughout New England and the West, and was joined in 1841 by the “Free-Communion Baptists”. It has changed its official name to “Free Baptists”. The American General Baptists are in substantial doctrinal agreement with the Freewill Baptists.

(5) The Old Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit “Predestinarian” Baptists are Manichaean in doctrine, basically holding that there are two seeds, one of good and one of evil.

(6) The Primitive Baptists, also called Old-School, Anti-Mission, and Hard-Shell, Baptists since 1835 has constituted a sect which is opposed to missions, Sunday schools, and in general to human religious institutions.

(7) The foundation of the Separate and of the United Baptists was the result, either immediate or mediate, of the attitude taken by some Baptists toward the “Whitefield revival movement of the eighteenth century” (Don’t ask!)

(8) The Seventh-Day Baptists differ from the tenets of the Baptists generally only in their observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord. “Sabbatarian Baptists” organized in 1671. In 1818 the name Seventh Day Baptists was adopted.
(9) The Six-principle Baptists are a small body and date from the seventeenth century. They are so called from the six doctrines of their creed, contained in Heb., vi, 1-2:
(a) Repentance from dead works;
(b) Faith toward God;
(c) The doctrine of Baptism;
(d) The imposition of hands;
(e) The resurrection of the dead;
(f) Eternal judgment.

(10) The Winebrennerians or Church of God were founded in 1829. They acknowledge three Divine ordinances:
baptism,
feet-washing,
and the Lord’s Supper

and finally:
(11) The WishIweres were founded yesterday. They wish they were Catholics!
(OK I made that one up. But the rest are 100% accurate! I think! It really is hard to tell actually. Is there any Baptist out there that knows anything about your own church if you could help us?
:extrahappy:
Ok I will make it easier, a Baptist that knows anything at all!

Good Night, Remember you are all loved! Especially all of the Protestants. You are so “special”:whacky:

God Bless,
I have to run!**

 

[johnnydigit]

Which writer specifically and explicitly says she is an ark? Chapter and verse please.

no thanks. i’ll humor you in private messaging if you sincerely want to know. otherwise, God doesn’t want this conversation to continue. God bless everyone.

 

[sola_scriptura]

**

For your information John Smith was the youngest “self confessed” dope addict His story was he had some “silver tables given to him by an angel” Ready for this? He misplaced them. Anyway he founded the Moron, errrrr Morman church!
See you were wrong again, I of course am never wrong.Study your religions it won’t make you right just smarter. An informed heretic is almost a real catholic as the old saying I just made up goes!**

Ahhh … wrong again Rob, that was Joseph Smith

However, Mormons are not protestants. You have to at least be Christian to earn that title.

I like baptist! Really they believe “Everything” They actually have no real understanding of what they do believe! What with their various associations, conferences, conventions, fellowships, groups, and unions around the world even Baptists can’t even keep accurate track of their own sub-denominations. :bounce: There are about 50 just in the USA many of which may also have modified its groups doctrinal stance to Free and General Baptists:

Thanks for the lesson in protestant denominations – I guess somehow you think I find any of this persuasive (or that I didn’t already know all of this)? We’re all different parts of one body. We all (well almost all) recognize each others standing before God and inclusion in the body of Christ. We virtually all have ecumenical relations with each other. That’s sufficient unity.

You guys act like all one billion Catholics fit under the same roof every Sunday? Come on, that argument might work on a six year old protestant, but not me friend.

 

[Leeann]

Originally posted by Leeann:
Of course He did, but these things were obviously not necessary for the “salvation of mankind” or in any way a significant part of God’s plan for salvation, or these other things that He said and did would surely have been recorded.

But they WERE recorded! They were recorded in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, in the writings of the Popes, in the documents of the Church Councils (many of which, from Nicea to Hippo and Carthage, YOU accept as being HIS teaching - for example on the Canon of the Bible, the Trinity and the Nature of Christ!) and in Church councils and Papal writings down to our own day!

Think about John, having a special revelation from God regarding His teaching, which John was required to pass on for the benefit of all the faithful. Then remember that this happened 50 YEARS after Christ’s death, and thus not related, clearly, to anything He physically said and did while on Earth, no? Not something He PHYSICALLY taught or commanded, then, but just as surely His infallible teaching as if He had.

Think about Nicea teaching those wonderful truths about the nature of the God-Man in its Creed (which many non-Catholics proudly recite, as do we), surely infallibly since you accept them as well as we do - and remember that this was HUNDREDS of years after His death, but He was just as surely speaking HIS truth and teaching through the Fathers of that Council.

Oh yes, God still speaks, and His teachings ARE recorded :yup:

Hi LilyM:

As you re-read what I posted, you will see:
** “these things were obviously not necessary for the “salvation of mankind” **or in any way a significant part of God’s plan for salvation,”

John’s Revelation is not** “necessary” **for a persons salvation.

The Nicea Creed isn’t “necessary” for a person to be saved.
(Or Jesus and the Apostles would have made sure that when they were preaching and teaching - they would have mentioned it)

Complete understanding of the term “Trinity” is not **“necessary” **for a person to be saved.

These all came “after” His life…and are all good, wonderful things, but are not necessary for salvation.

**Just as, on the other hand, these teachings came “after” His life: **

Being a member in good standing in the Catholic church **is not **necessary for salvation - but the church claims it is (this was not part of the salvation gospel that Jesus and the Apostles preached or taught - that gospel was complete and nothing else was necessary)

Believing in “any” of the Marian Dogmas **is not necessary **for salvation - but if you don’t believe them - you’re “anathema”
(this was not part of the salvation gospel that Jesus and the Apostles preached or taught, complete/nothing else necessary)

A little bit of leaven spoils the whole loaf…or the whole gospel message…in fact…it becomes “another gospel” altogether and that’s a no-no. :nope:

I have no problem with acknowledging that God still speaks in this day and age, as I have already posted.

I truly believe He does and I truly believe that He has used faithful, devout, skilled people **to accomplish His Will **- as He did with the those who transcribed the bible and as He does with true and faithful believers in ALL churches.

He can and He has and He will use anyone to accomplish His Will, as no one church/denomination can contain God - no matter how hard they try either by self proclamation or by stating that they alone are able to dispense God’s grace.