I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[SimonArizona]

Leeann:
Hi LilyM:

As you re-read what I posted, you will see:
** “these things were obviously not necessary for the “salvation of mankind” **or in any way a significant part of God’s plan for salvation,”

John’s Revelation is not** “necessary” **for a persons salvation.

The Nicea Creed isn’t “necessary” for a person to be saved.
(Or Jesus and the Apostles would have made sure that when they were preaching and teaching - they would have mentioned it)

Complete understanding of the term “Trinity” is not **“necessary” **for a person to be saved.

These all came “after” His life…and are all good, wonderful things, but are not necessary for salvation.

**Just as, on the other hand, these teachings came “after” His life: **

Being a member in good standing in the Catholic church **is not **necessary for salvation - but the church claims it is (this was not part of the salvation gospel that Jesus and the Apostles preached or taught - that gospel was complete and nothing else was necessary)

Believing in “any” of the Marian Dogmas **is not necessary **for salvation - but if you don’t believe them - you’re “anathema”
(this was not part of the salvation gospel that Jesus and the Apostles preached or taught, complete/nothing else necessary)

A little bit of leaven spoils the whole loaf…or the whole gospel message…in fact…it becomes “another gospel” altogether and that’s a no-no. :nope:

I have no problem with acknowledging that God still speaks in this day and age, as I have already posted.

I truly believe He does and I truly believe that He has used faithful, devout, skilled people **to accomplish His Will **- as He did with the those who transcribed the bible and as He does with true and faithful believers in ALL churches.

He can and He has and He will use anyone to accomplish His Will, as no one church/denomination can contain God - no matter how hard they try either by self proclamation or by stating that they alone are able to dispense God’s grace.

I believe they are necessary to save some men. Are we to conclude that what God does is vanity? “God has given us the most efficient means of salvation and we have miserably deglected them.”-Thomas Kempis

 

[Leeann]

RobGentner

Have a nice night as I said wish me luck. am going to Vote tomorrow! I may vote for Obama than go join a protestant church! :bigyikes:

Bye

I didn’t want to post the whole post again, the comments within the body…too much space…but you are one funny guy!

I wish you hadn’t menshioned the dreenking…hic…that sent me over theeeedgge…and made me opwn anuther bott…hic…le.

I hooope your happy…

I am now comtenp…conemp…contemplating…joining a locul
nunnnnery ???..one thaaat makes wine…

Wjho wouldav thought it!

You becoming a prostanent and me becoming a catihic…hic…hic…hic

But firsht I haftoo go out an vote for Hilary…iz shee still in the game??? hic?

:stretcher:

 

[LilyM]

I believe they are necessary to save some men. Are we to conclude that what God does is vanity? “God has given us the most efficient means of salvation and we have miserably deglected them.”-Thomas Kempis

Some people can possibly be saved without knowing Revelation, or indeed without knowing any scripture - possibly without even knowing the name of Jesus, although all who are saved are saved THROUGH Jesus. I’m not one of those who believes that God punishes those who are ignorant through no fault of their own.

But you really think, once knowing what scripture is and whence it comes, we aren’t accountable for how well we hear its every word? That we can neglect any part of it without putting our souls in grave peril? After all “to whom much is given, of him will much be required”.

It stands to reason that you will be weighed and measured by the standard of what you know to come from God - ie all of scripture, and to neglect any of it makes one no better than the servant who hid his talent rather than trading with it.

“Man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY word that comes from the mouth of God” - so each blessed word of scripture is life itself, and to discard any is as dangerous as to discard any portion of the food and water which we need to eat and drink to sustain us.

Same with Church teaching - we who are given so much more, in the way of authoritative Apostolic teaching, than you, are similarly held bound to what extra WE have heard and read and accepted.

 

[Leeann]

I believe they are necessary to save some men. Are we to conclude that what God does is vanity? “God has given us the most efficient means of salvation and we have miserably deglected them.”-Thomas Kempis

Oh no!!! Not what God does…but we can conclude that what **man does is vanity **. That is evident in how some attempt to contain and dispense His grace.

Even that quote above shows vanity - Thomas Kempis believed that God didn’t give us enough by giving us His only begotten Son as the means of salvation…that there are other “efficient means” that we’ve miserably neglected…

 

[LilyM]

Oh no!!! Not what God does…but we can conclude that what **man does is vanity **. That is evident in how some attempt to contain and dispense His grace.

Even that quote above shows vanity - Thomas Kempis believed that God didn’t give us enough by giving us His only begotten Son as the means of salvation…that there are other “efficient means” that we’ve miserably neglected…

Since He gave us scripture, which you’re happy enough to make full use of, clearly YOU, by your own logic, don’t think that Jesus quite cuts it on His own, absent the written records His apostles have passed on to us, do you? I dare you to throw away your Bible and see how long you can go without it

Look, we don’t serve a God who is a niggardly miser and content to merely give us the bare minimum necessary to keep us from Hell. He wants us to come to ALL truth, to really know HIM, and not just to know the bare basics of what is necessary for our salvation.

ALL truth is what He gave the Apostles, and ALL truth is what the Church gives us today. It’s not just about keeping us from the pit, mate.

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
Oh no!!! Not what God does…but we can conclude that what man does is vanity . That is evident in how some attempt to contain and dispense His grace.

Even that quote above shows vanity - Thomas Kempis believed that God didn’t give us enough by giving us His only begotten Son as the means of salvation…that there are other “efficient means” that we’ve miserably neglected…

Since He gave us scripture, which you’re happy enough to make full use of, clearly YOU, by your own logic, don’t think that Jesus quite cuts it on His own, absent the written records His apostles have passed on to us, do you? I dare you to throw away your Bible and see how long you can go without it

As I stated in my last post - the bible is a “good” and “true” thing, something that should indeed be made full use of and often. But a person doesn’t **need **the bible for salvation…Paul didn’t need the bible for his salvation, Jesus really “cut it on His own there”…the early church believers didn’t need (*or indeed **have *) the bible for their salvation…He “cut it on His own” there obviously…the early church believers whom the Apostles taught didn’t need the bible for salvation…He “cut it on His own”…

However - comparing the bible,which contains His **gospel message **and that of what He commissioned the Apostles to do - against man’s attempt at altering that gospel message after the fact by adding “conditions” in order to be able to obtain the gift of salvation that has been offered to mankind and calling them “efficient means”…is no comparison at all.

Well, those are **your **words and what you think…with regards to Jesus not cutting it on His own without the written word.

As for how long I could go without my bible…I’d just have more time to spend with Jesus in prayer…before His throne of grace…knowing from being in His presence that He can definitely cut it on His own.

Perhaps you should pose that question though, to the people who are still living in countries where they haven’t been allowed to own a bible for years - and have to gather secretly for Christian fellowship and worship - at the risk of their lives - do you think Jesus has abandoned them simply because they can’t or don’t have a bible - do you think they risk their lives and those of their family members if their faith and relationship with Jesus wasn’t real and strong and deep…and if He couldn’t “cut it on His own”?

LilyM
Look, we don’t serve a God who is a niggardly miser and content to merely give us the bare minimum necessary to keep us from Hell. He wants us to come to ALL truth, to really know HIM, and not just to know the bare basics of what is necessary for our salvation.

You’re preaching to the choir here!

LilyM
ALL truth is what He gave the Apostles, and ALL truth is what the Church gives us today. It’s not just about keeping us from the pit, mate.

All truth is indeed what He gave the Apostles.
And what the church wants to give you today…is ALL of **their **truth. Subtle difference, but one that will land you right in the pit if you don’t take the blinders off.

 

[LilyM]

Leeann, last I checked it was the CHURCH that was the pillar and bulwark of the truth - that’d be the Church founded by Christ, the Catholic Church which traces its leadership back in unbroken line of succession to St Peter.

That pillar of bulwark is not me, it’s not you, and it’s CERTAINLY not your misinterpretation of scripture or whatever misbegotten sect taught that misinterpretation to you.

Nor your mistaken ‘me and Jesus alone’ attitude - has it escaped your attention that Jesus said that those who reject the Apostles (meaning the Apostolic Churches founded by them - the Catholic and Orthodox - which alone can be trusted to have passed on their teachings faithfully) reject HIM?

I know I am safe because I stand by that INfallible pillar and bulwark, and don’t trust to my own fallible self, nor to your fallible opinion or that of your fallible teachers, whoever they may be.

You really think Jesus couldn’t and didn’t do better than give us INfallible authority to help us (cause it’s not like we don’t need it every bit as much as they did back in Apostolic times, and Jesus promised NEVER to leave us in need) to discern HIS infallible (but all too often misunderstood) teaching?

 

[CWBetts]

Just one thought for the Protesteants, since you all believe you cannot be POSSIBLY be mistaken, you think yourselves to be infallible in matters of faith, morals and dactrine? In other words, have you rejected the Church fiunded by Christ to give yourself the ability to decalre yourselves your own pope? A bit presumptious if you ask me.

 

[happilycatholic]

I realize this is a little off subject here, but not so much because the one argument that is on every one of these threads is this one.

If the very foundation of sola scriptura is the protestant reformation then consider this:

Protestants didn’t like the way the Church was interpreting the Bible and following Tradition so…they broke away, interpreted the Bible their way AND took parts of it out AND stopped practicing most of the Traditions.

Now, they are following the doctrine of a flawed interpretation of an incomplete Bible and that makes sense how?

Not to mention there are over 33,000 denominations claiming to have the true interpretation. All the while the Church is still standing by the same 2000 year old divinely inspired interpretation coupled with the instruction of Christ Himself.

Tell me again, that makes sense how?

Maybe this would’ve all happend a lot sooner if the Apostles had disagreed with Jesus and said, “No way, I can’t beleive that story, I’m taking my own belief and going this way, you have a good one, k?”

Doesn’t it make any difference to non-catholics that none of the Apostles broke away from Jesus, not even Judas. In the end he even saw the error of his ways. They all died defending the faith that Christ passed down to Peter and Peter to the next. No matter if they disagreed or not. They died not for themselves but for Christ, who gave them life in the first place.

You’d better take a look at what started this whole mistake. King Henry VIII wanted a divorce. The Church said no so he invented a Church that would say yes.

He protested and became a protestant. I really don’t mean to be confrontational. It’s really just a matter of facts.

Do you want to protest Christ or follow Christ?

 

[justasking4]

Can you show me a verse where the apostles are praying to Jesus?

Acts 1:24-
And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen

 

[guanophore]

Well YOU could read the BIBLE. (small book many big words, twisted and distorted by protestants!)

Rob, I really do not think this kind of rhetoric is helpful. The poster to whom you are responding here is asking legitimate questions and seeking information. Making insulting comments is not going to open dialog.

However, I already gave you proof!
In the OT, your 5th Commandment,(Catholic’s 4th) it says: Honor thy Father and Mother. You do realize in Hebrew tradition at that time, thy Father and Mother meant all enders? They are your parants in the jewish religion. All united right? You do know that don’t you? So what God actually say was: Honor your elders!

There is really very little in our beliefs that can be “proven”. On the contrary, we call them articles of faith because they are handed down to us by an unbroken faith tradition. Some of them are simply not subject to human “proof” at all, and that is why they are called the mysteries of our faith.

Don't believe me? OK , ask some protestants to verify that for you since you appear to think Catholics lie. By the way, ask many protestants You all don't follow Gods teachings and all get confused. After all 33,000 false denominations not counting the 28,000 sub-denominations of the faith. If you are a southern baptist. You are a mamber of about 1,350 different denominations teaching 43 or more major differences in beliefs. Asking a Catholic would be much easier, We all beleve the same things. (In various degree I must add to not lie)

There are probably just as many “cafeteria” Catholics as there are faithful ones, so I don’t think it is very good advice to “ask a Catholic”. Most Catholics are not well catechized in their faith, which is why they are so prone to proselytizing. However, you and I are in agreement that what the Catholic Church teaches is consistent and unconfused. There is one Church, One Faith, One Baptism. The One faith is articulated in the catechism, and that is why there is unity in the Catholic Church that is not found outside of her. Protestants generally use the Bible as the final rule of faith, and this requires that everyone interpret according to their own perceptions. That is why there are so many faith communities all believing differently. It is not right, though, to assume that these believers are insincere.

Now, If you call me a liar you dishonor me. If you refuse to accept what I tell you as true you dishonor me. You will be breaking the 5 commandment on purpose!

This is hard to swallow, since you opened your post with some dishonorable statements. Your elder status is not an excuse for discourtesy.

!

You have to go to the heretics for bible scripture catholics use truth, Logic, and wisdom, that we obtain from the Original Church’s teachings, both oral and written traditions.

This statement makes no sense to me.

I am here to instruct the ignorant, correct the mis-informed, save heretics, and spread Love to a unlovable and often unloved group, our separate brethren! !

The condescending tone of this statement boggles the mind.

getting sick and tired of your snotty condescending and arrogant attitude

You may wish to check that log in your own eye…

 

[RobGentner]

**
Hi happily :tiphat:

There you go, trying to talk sense to Protestants. It doesn’t work. I am expecting them to attack your intelligently, thoughtfully, and extremely accurate information and questions like a school of sharks in a feeding frenzy.

I told you are the Secret Catholic Meeting, that is wouldn’t work, But would you listen to me? :ehh: ( I wonder if they have meetings? No wait :doh2: They don’t agree with anything except attacking th CC!)

Anyway as planned, the other Catholics have their bibles open ready to defend you. We will praying the rosary for the ability to ward off their attacks. (Protestants: Rosary n. A bunch of beads joined together, Used to pray to the Blessed Mother Mary. ) Oh heck, me and my big mouth! uch: They will think we worhip Mary. Hey Heretics: We don’t! Please, SOB!!!, :crying: don’t ask me AGAIN!:tsktsk:

God Bless!**

 

[justasking4]

Cinette;4317745]
Originally Posted by justasking4
I agree. Please bring Holy-Sacred Tradition to the discussion. I’m still trying to understand exactly what it is.

Cinette
After all the postings. All the answers, All the explanations. You STILL ask the same questions!!

Well sweatheart - you need to go to Remedial Classes. Its those multiple personalities you have.

I recommended Patrick Madrid’s books. Get them - they will enlighten you. Also get FOUR WITNESSES by Rob Bennett. You will also enjoy them.

You are right i have asked this question repeatedly for the mere fact it is a major pillar in Catholic theology and one that claims to be equal to the Scriptures. What i find most disappointing is that Catholics who know the term and use it to defend their faith do not really know the details of it. Surely there must be someone on these forums who either really knows it or will admit the obvious.

 

[guanophore]

Leeann:

Rob - think for a minute - Jesus himself said…“repent and believe the gospel”…was He telling them to believe in an “unfinished gospel”??? The “miles” of other books and oral tradition you have only prove the amount of heresies that have crept in.

You are making a logical error here, Leann. No “miles” of “other books” will change the one divine deposit of faith that was left once and for all to the saints. This deposit of faith was whole and entire when it was given. All our studies and “books” do is add to our understanding of the one revelation. No one can add or subtract to that Deposit.

We can add ourselves to it, if we study to show ourselves approved, and we can deepen our understanding and experience of the faith that was handed down to us, but the content of the Sacred Teaching cannot be changed.

 

[justasking4]

---

I thought i would address your comment about 30,000 denominations in Protestantism. This is what you wrote:

"Well YOU could read the BIBLE. (small book many big words, twisted and distorted by protestants!)
However, I already gave you proof!
In the OT, your 5th Commandment,(Catholic’s 4th) it says: Honor thy Father and Mother. You do realize in Hebrew tradition at that time, thy Father and Mother meant all enders? They are your parants in the jewish religion. All united right? You do know that don’t you? So what God actually say was: Honor your elders!

Don’t believe me? OK , ask some protestants to verify that for you since you appear to think Catholics lie. By the way, ask many protestants You all don’t follow Gods teachings and all get confused. After all 33,000 false denominations not counting the 28,000 sub-denominations of the faith. If you are a southern baptist. You are a mamber of about 1,350 different denominations teaching 43 or more major differences in beliefs. Asking a Catholic would be much easier, We all beleve the same things. (In various degree I must add to not lie)".

Lets see how many Catholic denominations there are.
"Roman Catholics (242 denominations)

Now for the “Roman Catholic” denominations. These appear to be broken down by various rites:

Armenian (Eastern-rite Catholic)
Bulgarian (Byzantine rite)
Byzantine-rite (jurisdiction for more than one ethnic group)
Chaldean (Eastern Syrian rite)
Coptic (Alexandrian rite)
Ethiopic (Alexandrian rite)
Greek (Byzantine rite)
Hungarian (Byzantine rite)
Italo-Albanian (Byzantine rite)
Jurisdiction for both Latin-rite and Eastern-rite Catholics
Latin-rite Catholic
Malankara (Syro-Antiochian, Eastern Syrian), Syro-Malankarese
Maronite (Syro-Antiochian, Western Syrian)
Melkite (Byzantine, Greek Catholic; Arabic-speaking)
plural Oriental (jurisdiction for several Eastern rites)
Romanian Byzantine rite
Russian (Byzantine rite)
Ruthenian (Byzantine rite)
Slovak (Byzantine rite)
Syro-Malabarese (Eastern Syrian)
Syrian, Syriac-speaking (Syro-Antiochian, West Syrian)
Ukrainian Byzantine rite"

The source for this is from World Christian Encyclopedia by Barrett, Kurian, Johnson (Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001).

The idea that in the Catholic church is one unified whole does not match up to reality…

Hope this helps—

 

[happilycatholic]

Acts 1:24-
And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen

Okay good. This is the verse where they are choosing a replacement for Judas.

In my Bible, just like yours, it says, “Lord”, you know the thoughts of everyone…" In another Bible it may say “Holy Spirit”, in another “Our Heavenly Father”.

If you remember, this discussion started over referring to the Virgin Mary as the “Seat of Wisdom”.

How is it that you accept all titles given to The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, but you don’t accept Mary as the Seat of Wisdom? You will not find the title given to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit known as “The Trinity” in the Bible.

Besides you are calling the Seat of Wisdom a title where I would think of it more as a description because it is a metaphor, not a “name” like Yaweh, or Jesus or Redemer or so on.

You like to take the Bible literally when it serves your argument, but when it does not you use a different argument altogehter. This one I suppose will be the Mary vs. Jesus argument which I believe it’s blasphemy to put Jesus on the opposite side as His mother.

I am learning that you like to try and prove an argument with an argument. The fact is that the Holy Sprit is referred to by many names and it is not inappropriate to refer to Mary by something other than the name given her in the Bible, your Bible.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

The bottom line is this, do you think you will fall out of Grace with Jesus if you pray and sing songs of praise to Mary, his mother? Or is it more likely that you’ll find favor with Him if you do?

Don’t mistake my questions for a challenge to convence or convert. Not my vocation. I’m just asking.

 

[RobGentner]

**Hi Guan,:tiphat:

Real Quick.In a WAR you use every weapon available against the enemy. Our Enemy is the Devil and his followers. My weapon is Humor.

You try to use logic. OK, That will work wit5h some. You try and be nice. I think that is great. However, have you noticed that they don’t listen? Their minds are clouded by false thinking.

The ChriatianKnight, is 15 years old. He came to us asking the normal stupid type questions. Our people attacked Him. I defended him and told the mean guys to stop!

He then asked me some nice questions, I answered and He attacked me! A wolf in a childs body. I will not stand for anyone being mean to anyone on threads that I post. So I replied back. For some strange reason you wasted my time attempting to instruct me. I Thank you for that! But remember in every War you are allowed to defend against children attacking you. :knight1:

Now, Remember we are on the same side. If you would have written to a Heretic rather than bothering a warrior as he defends his faith agains Demonic attacks, you and I might have saved a soul with this time.Get back to the matter at hand. Trying to grab souls from Satan’s hands! I really do love all my seperated brethren, I show it by attempting to save their souls! I really appreciate your remarks.:
I will surely try to do better in the future.:imsorry: You can depend on that! :whackadoo:

Have a Blessed Day!**

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by sola_scriptura
are they omnipresent? Can they hear your prayers?

LilyM
What in tarnation does omnipresence have to do with anything? Do I have to be present with you to hear you? I’m doing just fine over an internet cable from half a world away

If every single person in creation were all simultaneously praying to Mary - well, only then you could possibly have a point, and you know that ain’t happening, of course. You for one aren’t

But if the Devil had power to show Jesus ‘all the kingdoms of the world’, and John had power to hear and see ‘all the people in heaven, on earth and under the earth’ simultaneously praising God in Revelation, then why is it so impossible for Mary to have the power to hear those (comparatively few) individuals who call upon her, even if it’s more than you or I could handle at one time (even then there are such things as answering machines … just sayin’ )

Clearly such a feat neither approaches the uniquely divine characteristic of omnipresence nor is God unwilling to grant such powers on occasion.

This is an excellent question asked of Mary and the saints. How do you know if they can hear your unspoken prayers?

How do you know if a saint you are praying to is in purgatory and can hear your prayers and do something about them?

On what what basis do you know these things?

 

[happilycatholic]

I thought i would address your comment about 30,000 denominations in Protestantism.
Lets see how many Catholic denominations there are.
The source for this is from World Christian Encyclopedia by Barrett, Kurian, Johnson (Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001).

The idea that in the Catholic church is one unified whole does not match up to reality…

Hope this helps—

You didn’t get this from a catholic site. This is from a non denom site. The following is a definition of Rite: (Notice the part where it says, “It cannot be changed by the Chruch…”!!!

Do your home work!!!

A Rite represents an ecclesiastical, or church, tradition about how the sacraments are to be celebrated. Each of the sacraments has at its core an essential nature which must be satisfied for the sacrament to be confected or realized. This essence – of matter, form and intention – derives from the divinely revealed nature of the particular sacrament. It cannot be changed by the Church. Scripture and Sacred Tradition, as interpreted by the Magisterium, tells us what is essential in each of the sacraments (2 Thes. 2:15).

 

[RobGentner]

**Hi The100thTime,

How are you?

I am late for work. But had to reply.

We all teach the same bacis facts, The Mass is the same! We don’t make things up, We follow the Pope, We follow Jesus, we have been here for 2,000 years. Some of the differences.

God Bless you for you feeble attempt to make Catholics and Protestant look the same. It is impossible. :whacky: But you did try.

I have to run.A little advise, Try to cut back on your drinklng (Others have been talking!!)!

**