I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel of 12;4208261:

Where can I see this "the miraculous tillma of Our lady of Guadalupe "? I typed this into google and didn’t find anything that showed what this vision is. Can you give me a website so I can see what you are referring to please.
I find this very interesting when I read about the visions that catholics have had around the world. Why don’t Methodists or Lutherans see Mary? I have heard of non catholics seeing visions of Jesus but never Mary. I also wonder about other religions. What do muslims,Buddists, have visions of?

Thanks for your inquire, one comment; did you know that this vision on the tillma is still visible since she appeared in the 15th century in the Cathedral in Mexico City DF. One of the many things that have stumped scientists, is that the Pupil of her eye display a full image of those present during the apparition, a masterpiece that can never be duplicated using the tools from the 15th century by any artist that has ever lived, it is as if she is present on the tillma remarkable.

One thing is to have a vision, it is another thing to have physical proof of a vision, not to mention the millions that converted to Catholicism from the apparition of the Virgin Mary of Guadalupe.

By her apparition she saved millions of Indeginous people from being massacred. The approved apparitions of the Virgin Mary by the Catholic church, were visioned by the most humblest and knowblest of humankind, who can never be persuaded away from their vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary not even from their simple minds and faith.

Mary has appeared during the times before and during human suffering.

For books on this subject from a scientific view and study results, google Our lady of Guadalupe scientific proof.

 

[adelore]

Since I’m now back into the Catholic Church, (I was away for 30 years) I can safely say, that although it’s true I met Many Prodesents who do believe we Worship Mary and the Saints, (many even tried to convience me that we did, of course that never happened) yet, I found many Prodesents who taught me many wonderful things, (through Bible Study) and from going to their church.

With that said, “No we don’t Worship Mary or the Saints.” But many times over and over I did ask Prodesents why they have Mary on such a “Low” level. Many Prodesents told me that Mary was just a “vessel, or a tool, nothing more or nothing less.” I was also told that Mary was just a woman and that any woman could have done what Mary did.

Let’s take a Closer look at that…

1. Did God choose just Any Woman to have His son?
2. What did the Angel say to Mary?
3. When Mary visited her cousin Elizabeth and upon hearing Mary’s voice what did Elizabeth say? (these are just a few “key” facts to really look at)

Now most Christians believe that God the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost are all in one.

That being the case…do you really think it was any “accident” that God choose Mary? If God choose Mary, shouldn’t we show her our respect, after all God is the the one and only that we worship. Not to mention this is Jesus Mother, who gave birth to our Savior.

In todays world most people “respect” their own Mothers, their friends Mothers ect. So why the “big surprise” that Catholics respect highly the Mother of our Savior? Shouldn’t we all respect her, after all her Son is our Savior.

Most people ask other Christians to Pray for them. Why then if that’s ok is it so bad for us to ask Mary to Pray for us? Geeze other than Mary I can’t think of another human on this earth that knew Jesus as well as she did.

In a nut shell… God choose Mary. If God blessed her with having His Son, who are we to down play that role in the History of the World?

Since God “created” the whole world and Adam and Eve, He could have just as well “appeared” on this Earth as Jesus without being born and going through life as a human. Yet He didn’t choose to do that… So was Mary “just a vessel”? No, I think not.

For those who want a little more “understanding” you can write to the Knights of Columbus and ask for their booklet about Mary. It’s a good booklet, it explains a lot and even if you choose to not agree with it all, any Prodesent will have a better understanding of their Catholic Brothers and Sisters in the fact that we don’t “worship” Mary, but we have the most respect for her and we know with a fact that God choose her and wanted her in the “Picture” for His reasons.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luck]

In all honesty, this was some thing I believed Catholics did, and for a long time I believed it (among many other things). The protestant church, or rather certain sect there of, tend to take things out of context taught by other religions and then declare it as truth. It wasn’t until I looked for the evidence for my self that I was truly enlightened. Now, for any one who cares, I began my study of the catholic church, not because I wanted to convert, but because I was opposed to it, and I wanted my girl friend to be opposed to it as well. I knew the bible better then her, that was sadly the easy part. But that was the easy part. I had to know her faith better then her, and I did this by reading the whole Catechism, cover to cover…this was no small task. But it did change my understanding of the catholic church and even provided answers to questions I had long struggled with.
My point to this rambling in this, it is a valid statement, but show love and patience. You never know if one of them is going to be the next Scott Hahn, or the next Cool Hand Luck for that matter.

 

[mark_caingal]

Well, I think what is important is that we Catholics, in our own selves, are aware that we do not really worship our Blessed Virgin Mary. We venerate Mary and honor her as the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ. That’s it! We should not mind what they are telling. That is their belief so we must respect them. But we must also analyze and reflect on the reasons why they had said that to us. Perhaps the protestants saw something in us Catholics which made them react and said that we pay homage and worship to the Blessed Virgin. Let this be a point of reflection for us because it is a fact that sometimes we show more sign of homage to Mary than to the Lord. I’m not saying that it is bad to show our devotion to the Blessed Virgin. I just want to make it clear that we in our own selves must see to it to whom do we really praise and give the highest honor and worship. Praise the Lord our God!

 

[Thing]

Hi Chris LaRock,
It is a bit sad to see people who do not believe you. I don’t know if Chris is accusing anyone of worshipping Mary. Catholics understand the meaning of the word ‘worship’. If someone wants to accuse Catholics of worshipping something other than God let them accuse us of worshipping a piece of bread and a cup of wine. No Catholic will deny that they worship these ‘things’.
If Catholics worshipped Mary or the saints they would be the first to say it, in fact, they would probably have close on two thousand years worth of writtings and thought on the subject and correct method of worshipping saints.
So, according to some more virullent non-C’s, Catholics worship things other than God but at the same time they will only admit to worshipping a couple of things other than God. Why not admit to worshipping three things, as opposed to two things, more than God?
If anti-C’s really want to accuse Catholics of worshipping ‘things’, they can accuse us of worshipping the eucharist - and we will agree totally with them! Yes, totally, we worship these ‘things’! …But please don’t accuse us of something we don’t do! …we would tell you if we did, honestly!

As far as praying to Mary. These very honest Catholics will also tell you there is only one way to God, through His Son. That is what they believe.
On earth it was difficult to actually get to Jesus, the man, because he was just one human man in a vast crowd of humans. People interceeded on behalf of others perhaps by lowering a sick man through a roof because the crowd was too much. Or they interceeded themselves on behalf of a sick person, and carried the message themselves.
If Christ said something to the crowds like ‘I am the only way/mediator to the father’, then ‘happy’ were the people who heard that from his lips. But what about the vast majority of humanity who could never hear that from his lips, they depend on the intercession of countless numbers of ordinary people through the centuries to give them that message of his.
The people who taught Chris his faith were intercessors between him and Christ, and they interceeded for his benefit and taught him the way to Christ.
Mary, as a very special example, can teach Chris a lot about the Son, her son, whom she raised and lived with and followed in her life. And a lot about how a most perfect and highly favoured person lives and ought to live.
The Hail Mary prayer is asking Mary to pray for you to her son …‘Holy Mary… pray for us now…’. Its also a reminder of how one should live the gospel in peace and perfect obedience as she did. Its also an acknowledgement of God ‘…blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus…’ and of Gods household, His Mother, whom He chose Himself, ‘Hail Mary’, and of His angels by starting the prayer with the angels greeting ‘Hail…full of grace’, it also acknowledges Gods friends in His household of heaven, Elizabeth and her greeting to Mary are called to mind. Catholicism does not exclude people or ignore them as if they never existed. In life these were the people Christ, God, chose to live with and speak to and eat with and help. It would look rather sad and arrogant if a person said it is only Me and Jesus, all the people of heaven the angels His friends in life, the saints can just go away its just Me and Him.
But what we do to the least of these perhaps we do to Him, we honour them and we remember them and in so doing we honour and remember Him.
If you think about it a prayer to Mary is really a prayer to God.

 

[Hislittlelady]

Why do Protestants make such a big issue over Mary and the Saints? No, we do not worship Mary, God forbid, for then we’d be praying to false Gods. We do not worship saints for the same reason. Please spread this message to your Protestant communities. Will you pray for me? Thankyou. I’m also going to ask Mary to pray for me as well. Amen.

I’m Catholic, but haven’t always been up to standard in practicing my faith, but now things are turning around. I’m studying and probing deeper into my Christian beliefs, and I have to tell you that Catholicism wins hands down.

I just started reading this wonderful book by Kenneth D. Whitehead called “One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”. I’m only into the first few chapters, and I can already see the full explanation as to why we are the true original church of Jesus Christ.

It also fully explains why we follow sacred tradition and how we have always had that so-called ‘hierarchy’ in our church, which is so criticized by Protestants. The apostles, who were appointed by Jesus Himself, were given authority to form the church, and that’s where the hierarchy began. It’s true and correct.

I have not reached the part about Mary’s role and why the apostles taught us to pray to her, but I will surely post it as soon as I do. Mary, the pure holy vessel of God. Can it be that she does not sit at the foot of the Throne before her only Son Jesus, who is and was both God and Man? Would you not take your mother, if you were in a high position and sit her before you, or even next to you maybe?

The Protestant beliefs bewilder me, no offense taken please, but why do you not go way back to the beginning of ‘our mutual church’ and find out why we have the laws that we follow and who started them. The Pope is also your leader who you fail to acknowledge or recognize.

Forgive me if I have offended anyone. I don’t mean to. I guess I’m not ever going to fully understand ‘sola scriptura’. Impossible for me to comprehend. Maybe it’s the same on your end. You cannot understand us any easier. That’s why this is good that we share information with each other.

The early church was the Catholic Church. It all started with the apostles, who received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, which taught them all things!! The church they started is the Catholic church of our day.

 

[LilyM]

No. My question was:

If you can pray directly to Jesus (A.K.A. God in human flesh), why would you want to pray to a saint ?(A.K.A. some dead guy)

A question in response: If YOU can pray directly to Jesus (AKA God in human flesh) why would YOU want to pray to a friend (ie ask for their intercession in exactly the same manner in which we ask for Mary’s - which is something you do all the time)???

 

[Mannyfit75]

To those who claim that saints are dead, that is a false misconception. Those who died in Christ are more alive than you and me. God is the God of the living, not the dead.

They may not have a physical body but they see God face to face. Compared to us, we cannot see God as he truly is.

 

[gcnuss]

To those who claim that saints are dead, that is a false misconception. Those who died in Christ are more alive than you and me. God is the God of the living, not the dead.

They may not have a physical body but they see God face to face. Compared to us, we cannot see God as he truly is.

Manny,

You might be interested in the following, written by a Lutheran theologian, Berthold von Schenk, written after the death of his beloved wife:

We cannot divide the Body of Christ. The Church militant and the Church triumphant form one Church. Nothing can separate the members of the Church, neither life nor death, nor power, nor principalities. At the Altar we have fellowship with our risen and ascended Lord. But there is also a fellowship with all the members of the Church.

and,

The nearer I come to my Lord in Holy Communion, the nearer I come to the saints, to my own loved ones. I am a member of the Body of Christ, I am a living cell in that spiritual organism, partaking of the life of the other cells, and sharing in the Body of Christ Himself.

There is nothing fanciful or unreal about this. Indeed, it is the most real thing in my life. Of course, I miss my loved one. I should miss her if she took a long holiday trip. But now, since she is what some people call dead, she is closer to me than ever. Of course, I miss her physical presence bitterly. I miss her voice and the sound of her approaching footsteps. But I have not lost her. And when my sense of loss becomes too great, I can always go to our meeting place at the Altar where I receive the Body and Blood of my Lord that preserves my body and soul just as it has preserved her to everlasting life. * * * The Blessed Sacrament links us not merely to Bethlehem and Calvary, but to the whole world beyond the grave as well, for at the Altar the infinite is shrined in the finite; Heaven stoops down to earth; and the seen and the unseen meet.

Just a few thoughts about the victory over death.

---

 

[sambos671]

As far as the immaculate conseption I always wondered this as a protestant. Catholics insist that Mary was immaculate protestant vehemently deny this. But when Samson was concieved God asked his mother to live under the Nazerite vow abstaining from drinking wine. but she’s not the one dedicated Samson was. but it was necissary for her to maintain fidelity under the vow until Samson was born. Why would it be different for Jesus who was greater than Samson?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Immaculate Conception affirms that Mary was free from original sin and preserve from committing any person sin through the merits of her Son, Jesus Christ.

For me it does not make sense that Mary would sin after the fact that she accepted God by becoming the Mother of the Lord and then all of sudden, change her mind by sinning. God hate sin. I hardly think he would allow Satan conquer Mary by having her commit any sin. It would mean that Mary is the slave of Satan because any sinner who is a slave of sin is a slave of Satan.

It would be like having Satan say, “Hey, Jesus. I made your mommy sinned!”

 

[mmplps7783]

This is an Online Discussion Board, not a Catechism or an exposition of doctrine or a Bible or an RCIA class outline.

How do you even know that the people who respond to you here are really Catholics? Or perhaps they are Catholics, but they are so carnal that they are giving you the wrong answers to your questions. Or perhaps they are new Catholics like myself, that don’t know a lot.

Someone told you to go to Mass. That’s a good place to start.

The Catholic Answers section (not the message board) is a good place to get information about the Catholic Church.

But nothing will take the place of study of the Catechism, the Bible, and other good books that have been written to explain the Catholic Church. I would suggest any books by Dr. Scott Hahn, who writes for modern English-speaking people. His CDs are also wondeful, as are Tim Staples CDs. Tim Staples has done an entire CD series dissecting the Marian doctrines and proving, from the Scriptures, why they are necessary to complete Christian faith.

If you are into weightier studies, you could study the works of the Early Church Fathers. These are online.

Also, find a Catholic Church that offers an Apologetics Class, or some other class to help inquirers learn more about the Catholic Church. Sometimes the priest is willing to meet with you.

If you are lucky enough to live in a city that offers a Catholic Family Conference or a Men’s Catholic Conference, go. It’s like VBS for adults; in one weekend, you learn a ton.

An online discussion board is a great place to go to hear personal experiences and testimonies, and to solicit opinions. But it isn’t really the best place for a systematic study of the theology of the Catholic Church (or any religion).

Maybe study was the wrong word to use. More like investigate. All of my in - laws are catholic and I just want to understand them more. I do not want to become catholic (as of yet).
What you said about people giving me wrong answers is possible. But I am not here to learn about the Bible. That is something that I go to church for. I also read it as well. I am just looking for answers to the catholic religion. For example why you light candles,what is the purpose of praying to the saints, ect…please don’t reply because all of those questions have been cleared up for me). As far as what others say about the Bible I take everyone’s word with a grain of salt an if it doesn’t line up with the Bible…but thank you anyway for your concern. I am not interested in taking classes right now just investigating beliefs.

 

[adrift]

Gabriel of 12;4208261:

Where can I see this "the miraculous tillma of Our lady of Guadalupe "?

Our Lady of Guadalupe

Our Lady Of Guadalupe
Patroness of the Americas

 

[gcnuss]

Manny,

I’m sorry that I haven’t addressed your subject line, “I’m getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!”

For the record, I do not believe that the Catholic Church teaches that Mary and the saints are to be worshipped.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

So by your logic a christian should never ask another to pray for them because if they do Satan may attack them? Keep in minds Catholics understand the meaning of worship than what you do. for you prayer is worship. To the Catholic it’s communication. ie I pray thee well.

Wrong.

You shouldn’t be asking dead people to pray for you.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

A question in response: If YOU can pray directly to Jesus (AKA God in human flesh) why would YOU want to pray to a friend (ie ask for their intercession in exactly the same manner in which we ask for Mary’s - which is something you do all the time)???

There is a BIG difference between having a fellow believer pray for you and praying to the spirit of a dead saint.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Do you honestly think that the Lord will allow a demon to attack or oppress a Christian who is truly seeking the Will of God and His answers to their prayers?

Possibly.

There are several stories out there of people praying to God for truth with regard to how to worship Him properly. And guess what happens…A Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness knocks at their door a short time later.

 

[sambos671]

Wrong.

You shouldn’t be asking dead people to pray for you.

wrong? Just Wrong? That is the problem with fundelmentalist and evangelicals. There is an arrogance or presumption.

Let me show you a definition of Pray or Prayer:

Main Entry: pray
Pronunciation: \ˈprā\
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French prier, praer, preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frāga question, frāgēn to ask, Sanskrit pṛcchati he asks
Date: 13th century
transitive verb
1 : entreat , implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner

So prayer can be a form of communictation to entreat implore. You believe you can’t speak to members of the body of christ in the Lord’s presence?

 

[ralphinal]

There is a BIG difference between having a fellow believer pray for you and praying to the spirit of a dead saint.

Now I see the problem. We are not praying to a saint’s spirit. We are not attempting to conjure the dead. We are praying to someone who was alive on earth and is now alive in heaven. The only way that saint can hear us is by the permission of God. This does not circumvent God, it is allowed by him as part of the plan.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Now I see the problem. We are not praying to a saint’s spirit. We are not attempting to conjure the dead. We are praying to someone who was alive on earth and is now alive in heaven. The only way that saint can hear us is by the permission of God. This does not circumvent God, it is allowed by him as part of the plan.

I understand that questioning such deeply cherished beliefs like this on a Catholic forum makes me public enemy #1 around here, but I can’t help but wonder why someone would pray to a dead saint for intercession when scripture clearly says that Jesus Christ is the only person you can go to in order to have union with God the father.

Just where did praying to dead saints originate from? I certainly don’t see it in scripture.