I'm hung up on Mary.

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Because the testimony of the spirit is not just truth but obedience. Catholics are much too often concerned with the spirit leading into all truth not knowing that ‘‘truth’’ in john is not just doctrine but a righteous lifestyle (2 john)
 
What I see happening in the catholic church is this dissassociation between the office of bishop, the human itself who sits in it, and a righteous life. For Paul, the particular office of bishop DEPENDS on the holiness of the person desiring to be an overseer. Secondly, the human bishop doesn’t automatically become under the automatic influence of apostolic infallibility, thus Paul’s exhortation for Timothy to guard everything that he was taught and instructed. Thirdly, if someone as a bishop sins so grieviiusly they are to be removed because as long as he stays in there, the possibility of leading people astray with his wickedness is there.
 
What I see happening in the catholic church is this dissassociation between the office of bishop, the human itself who sits in it, and a righteous life. For Paul, the particular office of bishop DEPENDS on the holiness of the person desiring to be an overseer. Secondly, the human bishop doesn’t automatically become under the automatic influence of apostolic infallibility, thus Paul’s exhortation for Timothy to guard everything that he was taught and instructed. Thirdly, if someone as a bishop sins so grieviiusly they are to be removed because as long as he stays in there, the possibility of leading people astray with his wickedness is there.
Instead of anti catholic ranting on all topics, can you get back to Mary?

Are you learning anything about Mary that is helping you get less hung up, or do you think in your heart at this point it is a waste of time?
 
I didn’t start the thread and I have been convinced that Mary is the 2nd eve mother of God and I canbaccept immaculate conception, perpetual virginity (although I don’t understand the need for this yet).

I am still bothered by an immaculate shrine of Mary with crowds of people crying to Mary and asking for grace. The arguments for intercession that involve us asking people we know to intercede for us comes in no Comparison to the amount and dependency that catholics have of Mary. I am bothered by a house with 15 huge statues of Mary. I think things are a bit blown up. After all why do the biblical authors pass over her so much?

Have you guys ever seen Man on Fire? The father worshipped the virgin details guadalupe and e end says it
 
I didn’t start the thread and I have been convinced that Mary is the 2nd eve mother of God and I canbaccept immaculate conception, perpetual virginity (although I don’t understand the need for this yet).

I am still bothered by an immaculate shrine of Mary with crowds of people crying to Mary and asking for grace. The arguments for intercession that involve us asking people we know to intercede for us comes in no Comparison to the amount and dependency that catholics have of Mary. I am bothered by a house with 15 huge statues of Mary. I think things are a bit blown up. After all why do the biblical authors pass over her so much?

Have you guys ever seen Man on Fire? The father worshipped the virgin details guadalupe and e end says it
The fact that a woman would get the noteriety that Mary does in scripture shows the authors did not pass her over. Women were close to being garbage in her era from a cultural standpoint yet she figures prominently.

Would Jesus be displeased that we talk to his mother? In the end , she has to go to Him. Intercession.
 
Yes but when catholics all over the world. Are depending so much on her prayers being more powerful than someone else’s who doesn’t is scary. It just looks like worship even though doctrinally it is not.
 
Yes but when catholics all over the world. Are depending so much on her prayers being more powerful than someone else’s who doesn’t is scary. It just looks like worship even though doctrinally it is not.
More powerful? :confused:
 
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Erick_Ybarra:
I didn’t start the thread and I have been convinced that Mary is the 2nd eve mother of God and I canbaccept immaculate conception, perpetual virginity (although I don’t understand the need for this yet).
Those are important doctrines. The Catholic Church never requires prayers to the Virgin Mary. In fact, all of our liturgical prayers end with the same invocation to Jesus, as our intercessor. Don’t get confused by private devotion and church doctrines. People can be emotional, and have different ways to show their love. But you don’t have to be bothered by it. Adhere to the doctrines you already accept, and that should be sufficient until you feel inclined to move further in one direction or another.🙂
 
Yes but when catholics all over the world. Are depending so much on her prayers being more powerful than someone else’s who doesn’t is scary. It just looks like worship even though doctrinally it is not.
You’re looking at it the wrong way. When Jesus is too intimidating to approach, go to Mary. She’ll point you right back to Jesus, but you’ll have someone by your side.

hope that helps 👍
 
Those are important doctrines. The Catholic Church never requires prayers to the Virgin Mary. In fact, all of our liturgical prayers end with the same invocation to Jesus, as our intercessor. Don’t get confused by private devotion and church doctrines. People can be emotional, and have different ways to show their love. But you don’t have to be bothered by it. Adhere to the doctrines you already accept, and that should be sufficient until you feel inclined to move further in one direction or another.🙂
The Catholic Church requires many prayers to the Virgin Mary as the church recognizes her maternal solicitude over the church including each individual member as well as over every human being. This is shown by the many liturgical feasts we celebrate in her honor throughout the liturgical year. Mary is our mother in the order of divine grace (CCC #968) who cooperates with the Holy Spirit in the generation and formation of all the redeemed (Vatican Council II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, #63). God has given to Mary this role and she has accepted it with all her being. The role Mary plays in our spiritual life or the life of grace is analogous to the role our natural mothers played in bringing us into this world (Pope John Paul II, Encyclical Redemptoris Mater, #45). Certainly, no one can say that we didn’t need our mothers to bring us into this world. I’ll end with a quote from St. Louis Marie de Montfort in the Secret of Mary, #12:
“Since Mary has formed Jesus Christ, the Head of the elect, it is also her office to form the members of that head, that is to say, all true Christians; for a mother does not form the head without the members, nor the members without the head.”
 
If you are willing to allow the spirit of truth to be at work in Protestantism then why are you not open to the fact that maybe the protestants are right about ‘‘something’’ while wrong about most???
It would appear you are unwilling (or unable) to answer the rest of my questions, so I will attempt to answer them for you (in blue).

Did the Apostles teach different doctrines to different people? Yes or no? No
Did the Apostles and other leaders of the early Church believe it was okay to have false doctrines within the Church? Yes or no? No
Did the Apostles break fellowship with those who were teaching different doctrines than they were teaching? Yes or no? Yes
Did Jesus and the Apostles demand conformity to the doctrines they taught? Yes or no? Yes
Were the Apostles infallible in their teaching on faith and morals? Yes or no? You answered Yes
Can you be “one” with someone who believes in false doctrines? Yes or no? No
In your church, can two walk together if they are not in agreement? Yes or no? ???
 
I called 1-888-633-3446, that’s 1-888-needhim
and i got saved!!!
I’m on my way to heaven!!!
Amen!!!
Praise god almighty!!!
 
In my experience, coming from a catholic upbringing, every catholic in my family, who I knew, friends of family etc,etc have had very little interest in Jesus Christ. I have seen drug attics, people addicted to pornography, adultery, drunkenness, greed, sexual immorality, deceit, anger, lukewarmness, and straight ungodly slave to sin lives be changed from the inside to being kind, faithful, righteous, loving, sober, and truthful people from the heart. And in my experience of Protestantism, I saw thus plenty. I’ve seen Christians excommunicated for failing to live a repentant lifestyle and I’ve seen people who worship the lord day and night, who would die for the world. Whereas in Catholicism I’ve seen people who have a hohum attitude about Christ, no faithful sharing of Christs broken body to the lost world, people who are violent and so enslaved to sin that they think its OK. So protestants who are enslaved to christ who would die for the gospel need more prayers than a catholic who lives in sin and has no love for christ?

Maybe if I see this inbcatholicism I would think different. But to this day my huge family are drunks, yet all go to mass and are friends with the priest. Christ is angry at that.

This does not alleviate the guilt of all the schismatics and heretics in the world. But you know what, you had heretics back in the day and so now. In fact Paul said they would come out from among the church and he told Timothy to gaurd the faith because of the possibility if falling away as Paul himself saw in his own co-workers whom he delivered tobsatan or if they loved this present world.
I understand entirely what you are saying about this matter. In fact for much of the same reasons I left the Catholic Church. I also returned to the Church. However, lets be honest about something. This is an unfair challenge to the Catholic Church. Let me explain if I tell you that the moon is made up of rock and you still describe it as being made of cheese does that lessen the truth of what I said? No. My family like your family were secular Catholics or just cultural Catholics. And in fact there are many secular Catholics who have no real faith. Look at VP Biden and Congresswoman Pelosi who work hard against the Catholic Church’s beliefs. Yet they still call themselves Catholic and are in actuality not. It doesn’t mean that they cannot come back to the faith in repentance but really what they have faith in is what they personally believe. Not what the Church teaches. So it is with our families. Every day as Catholics we are faced with the choice of Adam and Eve. Will I remain obeying God or will I do my own thing? Unfortunately, many Catholics choose their own way to include certian Clergy!!! Another way your observation is unfair is that it is clear there are many Faithful Catholics you don’t know who study the scripture live faithful lives who daily take up their cross and follow Jesus. Just as there are many Protestants who continue to live in sin. At this one baptist church I attended before returning to the Catholic faith a Childrens Sunday School teacher would come to Church drunk! And her husband being a deacon kept it quiet. In another Church near by a Youth Minister just got sentenced to jail for child abuse (molestation). And when you combine all the Protestant Christian Denominations together you find that the Majority don’t follow Christ but their own way by living immoral lives. I knew a single deacon who was living with his girlfriend and it was an cheep grace he held to and sin wasn’t a big issue because he only needed to mentally ask God for forgiveness and it wasn’t a big deal. In our Catholic Faith every mortal sin is a fall from Grace much like when Adam ate the fruit God told him not to. For Catholics its serious we must bring it to the cross and confess our sins and as the act of contrition says to make a firm resolution to “never more offend thee”. Whereas to a protestant you sin, you let up a quick mental “please God forgive me” and continue living with your live in girlfriend.
If you want to make a just decision I suggest you find faithful Catholics who hold to the Church’s teaching that we must be daily converted to Jesus Christ. Read the life stories of the Saints. Because in the end the Goal of the Catholic Church is to make every Catholic a Saint in the beafication sense.
When we are baptized into the Catholic faith we have entered into a New Covenant and we are given the Holy Spirit. But like in the prodical son God is waiting paitently for you to come to him and when you do he holds nothing back. In the prodical son the father waits at the gate and when he sees his son afar off (the willingness to engage God in our lives) the Father doesn’t wait for you to arrive at the gate he comes running out and meets you on the road and proclaims that you are his and gives you a ring and cloak and tells his servants to prepare a feast. This story that Jesus tells is so Catholic in perspective! So there are a lot of Catholics out there who have been entered into covenant (sons of the Father) but who haven’t decided that it was better in their Father’s home. Once they do The Father will do as Jesus says. “I am knocking at the door and whosoever opens up to me I will enter in and we will sup together”.
 
One thing that puzzles me though–if God can create perfect, sinless people–even after the Fall–why did He not just begin to create us ALL sinless, like Mary, rather than sending His Son to die on the cross?

Also–did Mary–like Eve–have the ABILITY to sin, but just chose not to, or was she unable to sin?

And then that leads me to–if babies are born innocent and have yet to sin–but sin as they grow older because of the fallen nature of man–why, then did Eve sin, and Adam? They were different from us in some way when created as they had no fallen nature starting out, yet they “fell” pretty easily, so the story goes. Yet, Mary did not. She did not even commit the little sins of childhood. She was able to refrain, even as a young child, from sinning, yet Adam and Eve were hardly able to resist it for a minute. I guess I just don’t really understand it.
That’s a great question Zenith. But I think the issue is that even if he started creating sinless beings the ones that came from the sinful line would still need a savior.

I’d say Mary definitely had the ability to sin. My assumption coming from the fact that Jesus Christ himself was tempted. G-d makes us free will agents, and He receives honor from our decisions to avoid the occassion of sin. So, I’d be willing to bet she had the ability to sin.

About Adam and Eve, babies are born ignorant to sin and don’t have the ability to reason logically. The bible says that “for him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” So a baby comes to a point where they can choose sin, just the same for Adam and Eve. I’d say in reference to Mary, the bible says that G-d knew us even when we were in our mothers wombs. He chose Mary specially for the task that he had for her. Outside of those assumptions we can really only rely on faith.
 
I understand entirely what you are saying about this matter. In fact for much of the same reasons I left the Catholic Church. I also returned to the Church. However, lets be honest about something. This is an unfair challenge to the Catholic Church. Let me explain if I tell you that the moon is made up of rock and you still describe it as being made of cheese does that lessen the truth of what I said? No. My family like your family were secular Catholics or just cultural Catholics. And in fact there are many secular Catholics who have no real faith. Look at VP Biden and Congresswoman Pelosi who work hard against the Catholic Church’s beliefs. Yet they still call themselves Catholic and are in actuality not. It doesn’t mean that they cannot come back to the faith in repentance but really what they have faith in is what they personally believe. Not what the Church teaches. So it is with our families. Every day as Catholics we are faced with the choice of Adam and Eve. Will I remain obeying God or will I do my own thing? Unfortunately, many Catholics choose their own way to include certian Clergy!!! Another way your observation is unfair is that it is clear there are many Faithful Catholics you don’t know who study the scripture live faithful lives who daily take up their cross and follow Jesus. Just as there are many Protestants who continue to live in sin. At this one baptist church I attended before returning to the Catholic faith a Childrens Sunday School teacher would come to Church drunk! And her husband being a deacon kept it quiet. In another Church near by a Youth Minister just got sentenced to jail for child abuse (molestation). And when you combine all the Protestant Christian Denominations together you find that the Majority don’t follow Christ but their own way by living immoral lives. I knew a single deacon who was living with his girlfriend and it was an cheep grace he held to and sin wasn’t a big issue because he only needed to mentally ask God for forgiveness and it wasn’t a big deal. In our Catholic Faith every mortal sin is a fall from Grace much like when Adam ate the fruit God told him not to. For Catholics its serious we must bring it to the cross and confess our sins and as the act of contrition says to make a firm resolution to “never more offend thee”. Whereas to a protestant you sin, you let up a quick mental “please God forgive me” and continue living with your live in girlfriend.
If you want to make a just decision I suggest you find faithful Catholics who hold to the Church’s teaching that we must be daily converted to Jesus Christ. Read the life stories of the Saints. Because in the end the Goal of the Catholic Church is to make every Catholic a Saint in the beafication sense.
When we are baptized into the Catholic faith we have entered into a New Covenant and we are given the Holy Spirit. But like in the prodical son God is waiting paitently for you to come to him and when you do he holds nothing back. In the prodical son the father waits at the gate and when he sees his son afar off (the willingness to engage God in our lives) the Father doesn’t wait for you to arrive at the gate he comes running out and meets you on the road and proclaims that you are his and gives you a ring and cloak and tells his servants to prepare a feast. This story that Jesus tells is so Catholic in perspective! So there are a lot of Catholics out there who have been entered into covenant (sons of the Father) but who haven’t decided that it was better in their Father’s home. Once they do The Father will do as Jesus says. “I am knocking at the door and whosoever opens up to me I will enter in and we will sup together”.
One important thing I always try and remind myself of my protestant upbringing and my present Catholic walk is we were all people before we were Christians. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. Praise G-d He came to seek and to save that which was lost and that His word is promised to never come back void.
 
I may be wrong but I’ve heard it said that Jesus directly could not sin while Mary indirectly could not sin.
 
The Catholic Church requires many prayers to the Virgin Mary as the church recognizes her maternal solicitude over the church including each individual member as well as over every human being. This is shown by the many liturgical feasts we celebrate in her honor throughout the liturgical year. Mary is our mother in the order of divine grace (CCC #968) who cooperates with the Holy Spirit in the generation and formation of all the redeemed (Vatican Council II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, #63). God has given to Mary this role and she has accepted it with all her being. The role Mary plays in our spiritual life or the life of grace is analogous to the role our natural mothers played in bringing us into this world (Pope John Paul II, Encyclical Redemptoris Mater, #45). Certainly, no one can say that we didn’t need our mothers to bring us into this world. I’ll end with a quote from St. Louis Marie de Montfort in the Secret of Mary, #12:
“Since Mary has formed Jesus Christ, the Head of the elect, it is also her office to form the members of that head, that is to say, all true Christians; for a mother does not form the head without the members, nor the members without the head.”
I understand what you are getting at, but you have mistaken the meaning of my post. I was referring to the Church REQUIRING a private devotion to Mary by saying private prayers, like the Rosary for example.

I don’t think anyone (including Protestants) have any issues with the liturgical celebrations of Marian feasts, or the Marian doctrines, which the poster to whom I was responding, had no difficulties.

OTOH, many Protestants have much difficulty with the very emotional displays of devotion some Catholics exhibit in various circumstances, which for all the world looks like adoration (even though it isn’t.) This is the type of thing I meant is NOT required by the Catholic Church and is why I said private devotion should not be confused with Church doctrine.
 
So I’m reading through the CCC as a born and raised Protestant who is certain God is leading to the Catholic Church, much to my fighting and refusing (due to family security–I’m a Youth Pastor and full of fear about making the transition, see the Vocations forum for that).

I’m loving the CCC and have not yet disagreed, but I’m having a hard time with Mary. I’m now a believer in the perpetual virginity of Mary after research and reading (prior to I was not), but I’m having a hard time with the idea that Mary remained sinless in life and the bodily taking up to heaven at the end of her life (assumption).

Can anyone point me to a good resource that will spell this out in a convincingly Biblical and/or reasonable manner? Or, if you are able to articulate the position for a Protestant here, that would be greatly appreciated!
Converts are often the best Catholics. Us cradle Catholics never had to fight for or lose something for the Catholic faith.
 
I understand what you are getting at, but you have mistaken the meaning of my post. I was referring to the Church REQUIRING a private devotion to Mary by saying private prayers, like the Rosary for example.

I don’t think anyone (including Protestants) have any issues with the liturgical celebrations of Marian feasts, or the Marian doctrines, which the poster to whom I was responding, had no difficulties.

OTOH, many Protestants have much difficulty with the very emotional displays of devotion some Catholics exhibit in various circumstances, which for all the world looks like adoration (even though it isn’t.) This is the type of thing I meant is NOT required by the Catholic Church and is why I said private devotion should not be confused with Church doctrine.
I think a lot of Catholics get confused about prayers, the Rosary and even those who love and honor her, she keeps all to herself. This is wrong as you well know yourself. All prayers, love, honor and devotion to the Immaculate Virgin Mary she carries to the feet of Jesus her Beloved Son. The humility of Mary so inexplicably great she echos all the desires and great Love of the Holy Trinity wishes. Who couldn’t love what the Immaculate Conception emulates. That’s why I love her in humility because she is the mother of my soul.
 
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