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Richca
Guest
AmbroseSJ- sorry if I misunderstood you
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
I appreciate what you are saying.
However, I think everyone here assumes that every protestant Church is greasy grace, ask Jesus into your heart, simply ask God to forgive you without real repentance, etc,etc.
This was not my experience in protestantism at all. The pastor I was under consistently, almost every week, preached hard on repentance, whole-heartedly obeying Jesus Christ, and perseverance as a condition for entering into heaven on the last day. The church there avidly practiced church discipline on members who were not exhibiting repentance. St Paul taught the Corinthians to judge inside the Church (1 Cor 5) and to remove from the fellowship altogether those who refuse to repent. We were actively engaged, the whole congregation, in door to door evangelism on an average of 5 hours per week. We had weekly bible studies. People were bible scholars within a couple of months.
The testimonies of people coming out of roman catholicism expressing the total absence of any preaching on repentance as a condition for salvation or forgiveness. They felt as if they could continue going to the RCC and always be living in sin, whereas when they came to our Church, the constant teaching on repentance, the accountability, and the church discipline helped people to realize they could not fool around and expect to go to heaven when they die. And it is not just in my own family, this is the unanimous testimony from many people who leave the Catholic Church. When I read books like Suprised By Truth, there are many Catholic reverts who explain their catholic childhood in the same exact way. The deadness, the practice of sin in the members, the hypocrisy, the sad fact that no one mentions God outside of mass…
Are we to judge in the body of Christ? Absolutely (1 Cor 5:1-13). Because a Church that claims pure apostolic doctrine makes no difference in the sight of God (Revelations 1-3). You have to have right doctrine and holy living if one is to be a true successor to the apostles.
That is what is scary in Roman Catholicism, the role of bishop is always there any can be filled by anyone and the same results are yielded as if he was a true follower of Christ.
In the NT, the holiness of the bishop was a pre-condition for his position as bishop!!
I am terrified to put myself and my family into the hands of a system where one can simply go to mass once a week, confess your sins to a priest, and everything is ok.
However, I think everyone here assumes that every protestant Church is greasy grace, ask Jesus into your heart, simply ask God to forgive you without real repentance, etc,etc.
This was not my experience in protestantism at all. The pastor I was under consistently, almost every week, preached hard on repentance, whole-heartedly obeying Jesus Christ, and perseverance as a condition for entering into heaven on the last day. The church there avidly practiced church discipline on members who were not exhibiting repentance. St Paul taught the Corinthians to judge inside the Church (1 Cor 5) and to remove from the fellowship altogether those who refuse to repent. We were actively engaged, the whole congregation, in door to door evangelism on an average of 5 hours per week. We had weekly bible studies. People were bible scholars within a couple of months.
The testimonies of people coming out of roman catholicism expressing the total absence of any preaching on repentance as a condition for salvation or forgiveness. They felt as if they could continue going to the RCC and always be living in sin, whereas when they came to our Church, the constant teaching on repentance, the accountability, and the church discipline helped people to realize they could not fool around and expect to go to heaven when they die. And it is not just in my own family, this is the unanimous testimony from many people who leave the Catholic Church. When I read books like Suprised By Truth, there are many Catholic reverts who explain their catholic childhood in the same exact way. The deadness, the practice of sin in the members, the hypocrisy, the sad fact that no one mentions God outside of mass…
Are we to judge in the body of Christ? Absolutely (1 Cor 5:1-13). Because a Church that claims pure apostolic doctrine makes no difference in the sight of God (Revelations 1-3). You have to have right doctrine and holy living if one is to be a true successor to the apostles.
That is what is scary in Roman Catholicism, the role of bishop is always there any can be filled by anyone and the same results are yielded as if he was a true follower of Christ.
In the NT, the holiness of the bishop was a pre-condition for his position as bishop!!
I am terrified to put myself and my family into the hands of a system where one can simply go to mass once a week, confess your sins to a priest, and everything is ok.
J
johnnyjones
Guest
Your last paragraph is another word tossing simplification of catholicism . I would like to see another soul come into the fullness of the christian faith but you seem dead set on repeating broad generalizations about Catholics and repeat untruths.
One must live the catholic faith and you should start realizing that it is quite insulting for you to take the rich history of the catholic faith and reduce it to a few acts. If you seek to learn, ask questions, do not write with emotions high and intellect low. You have answered little and ranted a lot.
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GraceSofia
Guest
Lovely post. Thank you.
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GraceSofia
Guest
WHOAH! Are you just going to ignore the last 20 posts that were politely and carefully responding to your previous post? Are you not going to address or acknowledge any of the points made? That is extremely bad form, you know.
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
Would you have told Jesus ‘’ your emotions are high but your intellect low’’ when Jesus came into the temple and turned over table?
To see wickedness in Christs church is one thing, but to see it tolerated is another.
A priest married my cousin and her husband, two people who are clearly not seeking God. They never go to church and they practice unrepentant sin. The priest took them through counseling and then married them. He didn’t test them. He didn’t make sure of their obedience. Nothing. And then he attended a the reception which was loaded with alcoholic drinking and a concert of rap and Spanish hip hop that is extremely inappropriate. He was there having a blast.
That was in Miami
I now live in Orlando Florida and I have a couple friends who clearly do not love God, posting pictures of themselves on Facebook getting drunk, etc, etc.
but they just got married by a priest, went through the whole counseling deal.
At my previous protestant church, the marriage counselor made the couples write their testimony of living for christ, their conversion, and he holds them accountable to sexual purity before they get married. He would ask them every week. If anything happened, it cold lead to a refusal to marry them because if a practice of sin. The pastor will not marry anyone without spending a great deal of time with the couple, testing then. And thus was done for Christ’s glory, that no one might be deceived in the sin, but to know that one is obeying the lord.
There are countless examples all over the world of this in the catholic church. However, the reformed baptist churches that I know of, not just in the united states but all over the wrld, practice church discipline and the preaching of the necessity of good works and holiness as a condition for eternal life. And allthe while the catholics who tolerate sin, where it would be rare to find a catholic fellowship committed to holiness of life, are complaining that Protestants teach faith alone when protestants are the ones working to heaven while they are living apathetic lifestyles.
Is that right?
To see wickedness in Christs church is one thing, but to see it tolerated is another.
A priest married my cousin and her husband, two people who are clearly not seeking God. They never go to church and they practice unrepentant sin. The priest took them through counseling and then married them. He didn’t test them. He didn’t make sure of their obedience. Nothing. And then he attended a the reception which was loaded with alcoholic drinking and a concert of rap and Spanish hip hop that is extremely inappropriate. He was there having a blast.
That was in Miami
I now live in Orlando Florida and I have a couple friends who clearly do not love God, posting pictures of themselves on Facebook getting drunk, etc, etc.
but they just got married by a priest, went through the whole counseling deal.
At my previous protestant church, the marriage counselor made the couples write their testimony of living for christ, their conversion, and he holds them accountable to sexual purity before they get married. He would ask them every week. If anything happened, it cold lead to a refusal to marry them because if a practice of sin. The pastor will not marry anyone without spending a great deal of time with the couple, testing then. And thus was done for Christ’s glory, that no one might be deceived in the sin, but to know that one is obeying the lord.
There are countless examples all over the world of this in the catholic church. However, the reformed baptist churches that I know of, not just in the united states but all over the wrld, practice church discipline and the preaching of the necessity of good works and holiness as a condition for eternal life. And allthe while the catholics who tolerate sin, where it would be rare to find a catholic fellowship committed to holiness of life, are complaining that Protestants teach faith alone when protestants are the ones working to heaven while they are living apathetic lifestyles.
Is that right?
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
Any right thinking Catholic should feel exactly the same! That “system” is not Catholicism, it is mediocrity.
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johnnyjones
Guest
“Countless examples?” Your statement.
Have you reduced debates to such childish examples of showing the bad acts of individuals or the Catholic religious vs. Protestants? One could right page after page of Protestant wickedness. I see that you are really not a debater or a seeker, just someone who want’s to throw stones and is set in a certain view that can only change by a willingness of the spirit and humility.
Intellect low, emotions high remains. Jesus brought high intellect into his emotions.
K
Kennyj
Guest
Consider the first commandment, Timothy 2:5 ,
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
You love God by keeping his commandments. Drunkenness is not loving God. Not participating in the means of grace is not loving God. Being open to other beliefs as true instead of christ is not loving God. Practicing fornication is not loving God.
You will know them by their fruits (matt 7). St.Paul commanded the church to judge itself and to sift out those whose lives are not holy. Not even to eat with someone named a brother but who is a drunkard, homosexual, fornicator, liar, adulterer, etc etc
As I said before the catholics are all about the necessity of works but I’ve never even heard of a practice of church discipline in it
You will know them by their fruits (matt 7). St.Paul commanded the church to judge itself and to sift out those whose lives are not holy. Not even to eat with someone named a brother but who is a drunkard, homosexual, fornicator, liar, adulterer, etc etc
As I said before the catholics are all about the necessity of works but I’ve never even heard of a practice of church discipline in it
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johnnyjones
Guest
You might want to consider why Christ died for us in relation to your first paragraph.
With your second paragraph you’ve gone into fundamentalism and fail to realize that Christ is our example, and he certainly bounced off more than a few sinners.
Finally, you end with an insult. Thankfully though as Catholics we can live life, and more abundantly. I hope you find your way home and pray the history of the church with Christ can help reveal the truth to you.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Here’s the thing.
Suppose that I, for example, were to be rhapsodizing about the wonderful people in my Catholic Church, the people who totally ‘lived’ the Christian life, the incredible programs we did for the poor, the wonderful Scripture workshops, the holy priests and religious, and contrast to the many Protestants in town who were constantly having their leaders (and congregation members) arrested for solicitation, caught in adultery, out lighting KKK crosses, cursing, drinking, fornicating, etc.
That would be my experience, and it is a true experience, in a fairly large diocese (diocese of Richmond it was).
Now, I am sure that Erick would be quite upset if I tarred “all Baptists” for the actions of those Baptists in my (large urban) area, and would say that even if all the ‘good Catholics’ in that area were models of Christian goodness, that there were just ‘too many Catholics in other places’ who weren’t.
BUT WE are expected to believe that Erick’s ‘hearsay’ experience of all the tens of Catholics he has ‘known’ reflect the status of the ENTIRE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
Now I’m NOT about to make the mistake Erick made and argue that my experience ‘proves’ the goodness of Catholicism. IMO, Erick makes that mistake trying to argue for his personal ‘goodness of protestants’ and denuniciation of Catholics.
Rather, I am trying to point out that different people experience different things. Erick may have met some very poor, STRUGGLING Catholics in his life, and he may have met some very GOOD, practicing protestants. But that does NOT mean that ‘all Catholics are poor struggling slobs’ or "all protestants are very good and practicing winners’.
Until Erick recognizes the fundamental dishonesty of his personal VIEW regarding both Catholics and Protestants, all we are going to see are riffs on “Catholics are losers because MY experience is they aren’t as NICE as my protestant friends”. . .
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johnnyjones
Guest
I agree, I said much of the same thing about Erick’s view only a few posts back. Post 229 to be exact. Please review it.
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
If I met a struggling Catholic I would be honored. But the ones Ive met and known all my life have been bold in their sin.
For instance, in the catholic church, if I know my cousin is in drunkenness and then I got to her 1 on 1 and plead with her to repent but she refuses. So then I try to find someone in her parish to come with me but they say ‘‘how dare you judge your brother or sister’’. I respond with ‘‘christ commanded us to do this in Matthew 18, the church has authority to bind unrepentant sin for His glory and the betterment of the sinning person’’. And the person responds ‘‘christ came for sinners not the righteous. The one who needs to repent is you.’’. Astonished at the disobedience, I try finding someone else, and they are willing because their 17 year old son died drinking and driving. But my cousin refuses to hear us. So we tell the bishop and he says ‘‘allow the love of God to convict her, and remember to not judge and worry bout your own life. After all Jesus said not to judge. Pluck the object out of your own eye.’’.
Discouraged by the whole situation, I conclude that the church has left her obedience to the word of Christ. For Cyprian, nor Augustine, nor Jerome, nor any of the bishops in the first 7 centuries allowed such sin to flourish in the body of Chilrist’’
For instance, in the catholic church, if I know my cousin is in drunkenness and then I got to her 1 on 1 and plead with her to repent but she refuses. So then I try to find someone in her parish to come with me but they say ‘‘how dare you judge your brother or sister’’. I respond with ‘‘christ commanded us to do this in Matthew 18, the church has authority to bind unrepentant sin for His glory and the betterment of the sinning person’’. And the person responds ‘‘christ came for sinners not the righteous. The one who needs to repent is you.’’. Astonished at the disobedience, I try finding someone else, and they are willing because their 17 year old son died drinking and driving. But my cousin refuses to hear us. So we tell the bishop and he says ‘‘allow the love of God to convict her, and remember to not judge and worry bout your own life. After all Jesus said not to judge. Pluck the object out of your own eye.’’.
Discouraged by the whole situation, I conclude that the church has left her obedience to the word of Christ. For Cyprian, nor Augustine, nor Jerome, nor any of the bishops in the first 7 centuries allowed such sin to flourish in the body of Chilrist’’
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minion
Guest
If you’re looking for a sinless congregation…I don’t think you’re going to find it…until you’re in heaven.
On Mary, I liked Fulton’s Sheen sermon about her on youtube:
youtube.com/watch?v=kgQ_YQCZRFM
Perhaps it will give you a new insight on Mary. Hope it helps
On Mary, I liked Fulton’s Sheen sermon about her on youtube:
youtube.com/watch?v=kgQ_YQCZRFM
Perhaps it will give you a new insight on Mary. Hope it helps
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
Not a sinless congregation but a people struggling with sin and striving forwards holiness. And actually we always practiced church discipline diligently and it saved people from their sin (James 5: last verses)
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
Not a sinless congregation but a people struggling with sin and striving forwards holiness. And actually we always practiced church discipline diligently and it saved people from their sin (James 5: last verses)
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
You just keep proving my point. . .all you ever talk about is YOU YOU YOU as if only you could read the hearts and minds of others and only your experiences reflect all truth.
I feel very sorry for you. Instead of trying to help yourself AND others to be better followers of Christ, you’re sitting in wrongful judgment on millions and ‘exalting’ yourself. Don’t you remember your Scriptures better? What did Jesus say about the people who exalt themselves?
There is no individual Catholic–and I include St Augustine and St Paul and all the 'early saints"–who has not sinned. Your complete private misinterpretation and cherry picking of Scripture ignores that.
Jesus spoke of the joy in heaven over the one sinner who repents.
YOU instead speak with almost gloating over your ‘perfections’ and sneer at the ‘faults’ of others, without offering them one word of help, one word of understanding, one word of prayer on THEIR behalf.
And that speaks volumes.
May God help open your eyes to His truth.
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TimothyH
Guest
There is plenty of practice of Church discipline, but it is none of our business unless we are the subject or object. The conversations a priest had with a man who is living with a woman is none of our business. The struggles against sin are none of our business, unless that person comes to us for help or we are in a postion of authority or friendship with that person.
God put up with Israel’s infidelity and lack of trust from the time of Moses to the time of Jesus. Israel couldn’t even remain faithful for 40 days after having ratified the covenant at Mt. Sinai, yet God kept his promise, and was patient like a loving father. What the Church does with sinners is the same thing God did with Israel. The Church holds out the offer of salvation and hopes and prays for conversion. The Church does not give up on sinners in the midst of the Church easily, but instead allows the wheat and weeds to grow together just as Jesus commanded.
When Paul told the Corinthians not to eat with drunkards, he was addressing a particular situation with a particular church in the city of Corinth. Corinth was a center of pagan worship which included sexual orgies and drunken feasting on large quantities of meat sacrificed to idols right in the temples of the pagan gods. People would become members of several religions so that they could get benefits from all the different hedonistic practices related to all the different gods. This is why Paul was warning the Corinthians, to watch out for people who claim to follow Christ but are really in it for the benefits to themselves.
What we can’t do is read the situation in the city of Corinth into the everyday practice of every parish in the world. Some places are very disciplined, like the Phillipians in the city of Phillipi where Paul loved to visit. Other, not so much. What the Church does is hold out the hope of salvation universally to all, and doesn’t give up easily. I was baptized Catholic in 1963 and thank God every day that his Holy Church never gave up on me, that it didn’t kick me out, because if there was ever anyone who deserved to be kicked out, it was me.
We don’t have to invite drunkards to our homes for dinner, nor do we have to be best friends with a guy who is cheating on his wife. Sometimes it is right to segregate ourselves from reprobates in our personal lives. But to God and the Church, every sinner is a potential saint. God doesn’t give up on sinners easily, and neither does the Church. The Church is instead patient like the loving mother that she is. It is wrong for us to do anything less than what the Church herself does.
-Tim-
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TimothyH
Guest
St. Augustine of Hippo was a hedonistic sex addict.
St. Callixtus was an embezzler and brawler.
St. Mary of Egypt was a harlot seductress.
St. Moses the Black was a cutthroat gang leader.
St. Olga was a vengeful mass murderer
St. Valdimir killed his brothers and was a polygamist
It goes on and on…
-Tim-
- Status