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W
why_me
Guest
I don’t know, I think this thread has been useful. A group of people got together and communicated their opinions. I think that we all learned something about eachother.
And of course, Mr. LaMar came on board and joined our distinguished panel of experts. :irish3:
And of course, Mr. LaMar came on board and joined our distinguished panel of experts. :irish3:
J
J_C
Guest
a little bickering can spice up the soup.
i just tink it is interesting that the mormon fellow pops in, starts a thread, and then disappears.
is that what they call a troll?
D
Dymphna2008
Guest
:coffeeread:Medals are reminders and objects with which a Catholic focuses their sight on God, they aren’t considered special or worthy for worship in themselves. Blessed though they be, they are still only pieces of metal, nothing more, and their wearing or display is not a contingency for salvation, only a sign of our commitment as Christians. Protestants, even ex-pat Catholics, mis-understand that significance. They see us kneeling at a statue of the Lady of Fatima (Mary, Mother of God), and assume we worship. They refuse to sit and listen to rational explanations of the difference between veneration (giving due respect and interceding with a saint for prayer on your behalf) and worship, putting a human being before God in our affections, knowledge, and the hopes we have for our lives. But any Catholic, taking the time to listen and learn their catechism, knows that God is the only one worthy of worship, that man is a creature, unable to aspire to the Godhead, much less understand it, or be transformed into one after death. Even Prots know this.
Whether or not other Christians laugh at Catholics, they cannot deny the active living out of our Christian service and moral benevolence; when you see true examples of this, then that is how Catholicism is meant to be lived. Perhaps, laughing is the only way that Catholicism can be denied as the only and true expression of the teaching of the God/Man Jesus of Nazareth, if they took what they see seriously, they would become Catholic, ex-pats would return to confession and Mass, and Protestantism, even Mormonism would lose a very big part of their congregants. But laughing at us hides the truth from them, and allows them to rationalize their own semi-faith.
Mormon underwear is nothing more than just that. It doesn’t express any form of faith to the wider world, since it is hidden from non-Mormons, and downplayed, as I see reading these notes, in the interests of re-directing discussion away from it. My underwear is only that; it keeps me warm in winter, since Halifax can be cold for up to six months, but it isn’t any sign of my faith. A hair shirt, might be so, since it puts me in a penitential frame of mind, but a hair shirt isn’t an expression of my faith, only a way to make my conscience consider how I need the forgiveness of God all the more. It isn’t secret underwear, but certainly a private matter of humility–people who go about showing it off aren’t humble, they want hero worship. Fortunately, my body can make up for the hair shirt in any number of embarrassing and humbling ways. But “sacred” underwear as a sign of my faith, no, that’s foolish. Even the vestments of the clergy tend to be signs, rather than reasons to worship God. Don’t quote me on this, but if a priest found himself with no vestments with which to conduct Mass, he would make do without them. They are necessary as expressions of faith and clerical ordination, they do not define that faith, nor do they endow ordination of and by itself.
I laugh at many different forms of worship; some want me to laugh (Toronto Airport Fellowship, for one); others want me to sing, (only at gunpoint). But worship, before anything else, must be humble and self-effacing before God. You and I did nothing for our salvation, that was all Jesus, and he died a horrible death, so anything a Catholic does to recognize that, genuflecting before taking our place in the pew, lighting candles of remembrance, taking the Eucharist, as he commanded us, living out a humble life and helping those in need, confessing our sins, if in the beginning learned as rote, eventually comes to be understood in practice and observance. The Rosary becomes more than formatted recitation of prayer, it becomes meditation, prayer of intercession in the name of a saint or Mary understands that Mary and any saint are highly honoured by God, and yet clearly and unambiguously human. Protestants constantly tell me prayer to Mary and the saints is useless. If so, then why do they ask me to pray for them; more to the point, why do they think they have any direct line on my behalf to God, and they’re prayers will be heard?
I pray to St. Dymphna to intercede for protection during my seizures, bouts of depression, and my own cynicism. I took the time to write a story based on that protection–fiction–and I learned a lot about myself in the process of writing, editing, re-editing, and publication to my site. I learned to pray to Our Lady of Fatima, understanding that Mary and I are always in the midst of all those water jars, in the foyer of the house at Cana as she says, “Do what HE tells you.” I try to follow orders, I fall, I crawl and pull myself back up–not an easy thing. But worship my underwear? Might as well do what the Protestants do and worship the Bible the way Mormons worship the “Doctrine and Covenants”. I will respect Mormonism when their missionaries stop looking at me as a potential member and a person, just as they might be (misguided as they are), of faith. When I can sit in my living room and explain to them, question them, and teach them that they need no definition of faith more basic than the Apostle’s Creed, when they see my beliefs as at least equal to their own, not a corrupted vision, and they are able to consider a choice between one faith and another, then I will respect it.
Now, excuse me while I make sweet 'n sour chicken wings for supper to go with the pizza I made last night.:coffeeread:
Whether or not other Christians laugh at Catholics, they cannot deny the active living out of our Christian service and moral benevolence; when you see true examples of this, then that is how Catholicism is meant to be lived. Perhaps, laughing is the only way that Catholicism can be denied as the only and true expression of the teaching of the God/Man Jesus of Nazareth, if they took what they see seriously, they would become Catholic, ex-pats would return to confession and Mass, and Protestantism, even Mormonism would lose a very big part of their congregants. But laughing at us hides the truth from them, and allows them to rationalize their own semi-faith.
Mormon underwear is nothing more than just that. It doesn’t express any form of faith to the wider world, since it is hidden from non-Mormons, and downplayed, as I see reading these notes, in the interests of re-directing discussion away from it. My underwear is only that; it keeps me warm in winter, since Halifax can be cold for up to six months, but it isn’t any sign of my faith. A hair shirt, might be so, since it puts me in a penitential frame of mind, but a hair shirt isn’t an expression of my faith, only a way to make my conscience consider how I need the forgiveness of God all the more. It isn’t secret underwear, but certainly a private matter of humility–people who go about showing it off aren’t humble, they want hero worship. Fortunately, my body can make up for the hair shirt in any number of embarrassing and humbling ways. But “sacred” underwear as a sign of my faith, no, that’s foolish. Even the vestments of the clergy tend to be signs, rather than reasons to worship God. Don’t quote me on this, but if a priest found himself with no vestments with which to conduct Mass, he would make do without them. They are necessary as expressions of faith and clerical ordination, they do not define that faith, nor do they endow ordination of and by itself.
I laugh at many different forms of worship; some want me to laugh (Toronto Airport Fellowship, for one); others want me to sing, (only at gunpoint). But worship, before anything else, must be humble and self-effacing before God. You and I did nothing for our salvation, that was all Jesus, and he died a horrible death, so anything a Catholic does to recognize that, genuflecting before taking our place in the pew, lighting candles of remembrance, taking the Eucharist, as he commanded us, living out a humble life and helping those in need, confessing our sins, if in the beginning learned as rote, eventually comes to be understood in practice and observance. The Rosary becomes more than formatted recitation of prayer, it becomes meditation, prayer of intercession in the name of a saint or Mary understands that Mary and any saint are highly honoured by God, and yet clearly and unambiguously human. Protestants constantly tell me prayer to Mary and the saints is useless. If so, then why do they ask me to pray for them; more to the point, why do they think they have any direct line on my behalf to God, and they’re prayers will be heard?
I pray to St. Dymphna to intercede for protection during my seizures, bouts of depression, and my own cynicism. I took the time to write a story based on that protection–fiction–and I learned a lot about myself in the process of writing, editing, re-editing, and publication to my site. I learned to pray to Our Lady of Fatima, understanding that Mary and I are always in the midst of all those water jars, in the foyer of the house at Cana as she says, “Do what HE tells you.” I try to follow orders, I fall, I crawl and pull myself back up–not an easy thing. But worship my underwear? Might as well do what the Protestants do and worship the Bible the way Mormons worship the “Doctrine and Covenants”. I will respect Mormonism when their missionaries stop looking at me as a potential member and a person, just as they might be (misguided as they are), of faith. When I can sit in my living room and explain to them, question them, and teach them that they need no definition of faith more basic than the Apostle’s Creed, when they see my beliefs as at least equal to their own, not a corrupted vision, and they are able to consider a choice between one faith and another, then I will respect it.
Now, excuse me while I make sweet 'n sour chicken wings for supper to go with the pizza I made last night.:coffeeread:
Do you mean something like wearing a St. Christopher medal around one’ s neck for protection? Mormons wear their garments for protection and for symbolism.
Don’t you think that some christian sects get a belly laugh when they see catholics praying infront of statues of saints? All faiths are their own ways of keeping their faith. But it is good to show respect.
R
RC_Matt
Guest
Yeah, and Mormons don’t hold any exclusivity in that department either. Too many people of all faiths are so focused on practicing religion that they are completely unable to attain any spiritual growth at all. Jesus reiterated that point time and time again, but lots of people just don’t get it.
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Memaw
Guest
How Old Is Your Church?
If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.
If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.
If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.
If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.
If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.
If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as 'Church of the Nazarene," “Pentecostal Gospel.” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.
If you are Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.
D
Dymphna2008
Guest
Which doesn’t mean that many others don’t. Protestantism lacks a mystical element which Catholicism and Orthodoxy (in the East) have always acknowledged was necessary to looking for Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Aside from scholarship, which does not deny religious experience, Catholicism has never gone so far as to de-construct the Bible. It does not form logical or at least seemly logical round pegs to fit into square holes. Protestants say Jesus is God, then in the next breath that God could not and would not appear under the form of Bread and Wine in the Eucharist. They use logic to deny faith; have always done this, forcing the Bible, otherwise practically unambiguous in the Eucharistic portions of text, in Jesus’s own word’s no less, into analagy where none is needed or implied by the text. Catholics have a very deep understanding of mystical aspects of piety, even when they lack the logic expression. A grandmother praying the rosary, knows more about the mysticism in Jesus’s personhood than any accredited theologian in a university, even on this list.
Catholicism has no need to apply a literal, logic, historical understanding to portions of scripture it sees as analogy. Many Fathers of the Church held this view, chief amongst them, Augustine of Hippo. It does not teach the Creation Story as fact, rather a mystical understanding allows the author to appreciate the knowledge of God through the knowledge and practise of his time. The author had no knowledge of astro-physics, rather, the point is to de-construct the ancient mythology of the people’s in its midst. It makes one god, one couple, responsible for the creation and the populating of the Earth, as the author knew it to be in the 10th. cent. BCE, re-edited and redacted some five centuries later, during the restructuring of Judaism in the Captivity under the Babylonians.
While there is logic there, there is also a mystical element that allows Christianity a depth of faith, when Christians realize it; Catholics find God not just in the Bible, but in the practice of Tradition and the Magisterium (a legal leg, if you will) of dogmatic application. Protestants rely on scripture alone, and so whenever they try to sit on their stool, it collapses for lack of two very important legs. A one-legged stool of scripture alone, like a diner’s bar stool, needs to be bolted to the floor to stand. Yet, Protestantism allows every person to decide their understanding of the Bible, meaning, application, piety, and so it has no central authority to define meaning and dogma. That one leg will topple in the absence of a central weight and dogmatic underpinning of bolts.
And, in the end, how am I to trust that a person actually does know what the Holy Spirit says through scripture, rather than his own will looking for a verse or story that will back his own wants and needs. No, before I trust one man, I trust the teaching of the Catholic Church over a Joey Smith or even my own priest, who might or might not be up to form in step with the Spirit Sunday morning or still hung over from lack of sleep trying to find the right mix for the homily that never seems to reach a good intermix, yet, they are still human, as are we all. Sunday next, he might be right on the mark, but if a Prot preaches the same text, that Prot is still not my priest.
Catholicism has no need to apply a literal, logic, historical understanding to portions of scripture it sees as analogy. Many Fathers of the Church held this view, chief amongst them, Augustine of Hippo. It does not teach the Creation Story as fact, rather a mystical understanding allows the author to appreciate the knowledge of God through the knowledge and practise of his time. The author had no knowledge of astro-physics, rather, the point is to de-construct the ancient mythology of the people’s in its midst. It makes one god, one couple, responsible for the creation and the populating of the Earth, as the author knew it to be in the 10th. cent. BCE, re-edited and redacted some five centuries later, during the restructuring of Judaism in the Captivity under the Babylonians.
While there is logic there, there is also a mystical element that allows Christianity a depth of faith, when Christians realize it; Catholics find God not just in the Bible, but in the practice of Tradition and the Magisterium (a legal leg, if you will) of dogmatic application. Protestants rely on scripture alone, and so whenever they try to sit on their stool, it collapses for lack of two very important legs. A one-legged stool of scripture alone, like a diner’s bar stool, needs to be bolted to the floor to stand. Yet, Protestantism allows every person to decide their understanding of the Bible, meaning, application, piety, and so it has no central authority to define meaning and dogma. That one leg will topple in the absence of a central weight and dogmatic underpinning of bolts.
And, in the end, how am I to trust that a person actually does know what the Holy Spirit says through scripture, rather than his own will looking for a verse or story that will back his own wants and needs. No, before I trust one man, I trust the teaching of the Catholic Church over a Joey Smith or even my own priest, who might or might not be up to form in step with the Spirit Sunday morning or still hung over from lack of sleep trying to find the right mix for the homily that never seems to reach a good intermix, yet, they are still human, as are we all. Sunday next, he might be right on the mark, but if a Prot preaches the same text, that Prot is still not my priest.
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Nordar
Guest
J
J_C
Guest
well, then by all means, he should JUST SAY NO.
A
afogleson
Guest
Since the catholic church is the one who decided what books would go into the bible… Of course the “reformists” decided to take out 7 but the entire new testament and all the remaining books of the Old testament were pronounced sacred by the RCC.Now how does that make the Mormon faith “interesting”?
When exactly did that occur?
Again when exactly - ohh lets be generous give me a year - was this apsotasization?
Now that is a outright falsehood. your faith community never partakes of wine as instructed by christ.
Al
M
Memaw
Guest
A medal is not a good luck charm and should NEVER be used as such, it is a reminder of the person and a reminder to talk to them and ask for their prayers. Some of you need to get your facts straight, We DON"T pray to statues, we pray to the person the stature represents. Get That straight PLEASE. How many times do we have to tell you!!! and if we kneel when we pray, what in the world is wrong with that??? People have been kneeling to pray for ever.
And yes, during war time, priest say Mass on the back of a jeep or whatever and they don’t always have time to put on vestments. Priest in prisoner of war camps have said Mass too.
And yes, during war time, priest say Mass on the back of a jeep or whatever and they don’t always have time to put on vestments. Priest in prisoner of war camps have said Mass too.
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distracted
Guest
]
There was no apostacy… Jesus promised that His Church would prevail against the very gates of Hell… and there is NOthing more powerful in this world than the gates of Hell (Satan). When Jesus was tempted in the desert, when Satan promised him the world if he would worship him, Jesus did not argue with him that it was his to give…
Jesus said (St. Matthew 16:18) that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church that he would build… Yes there has been corruption and bad members of the Church… but the sacraments, the Mass, etc… are powerful enough to keep a person on the road to Heaven… All that is required is our cooperation. The fact that some don’t cooperate should not surprise anyone…
**There is not and never has been any apostacy… **
To say otherwise is to make Jesus a liar and / or one who does not keep his promises…
Jesus is God… He is the only “human” who DOES keep promises, the only “human” (also God) who loves unconditionally and always… the one who rejects no one… (that is in Scripture but i don’t know where… no Bible handy…).
Mormonism was founded by a human being and a very weak one at that… God hates divorce… meaning, he wants one man with one woman for the rest of their lives… (Malachi 2 or 3:16)…
If J Smith was so wrong about polygamy, why believe we can trust him about anything at all? It doesn’t make sense…
R
rich123456
Guest
I would agree
The whole apostasy thing can be challenged at every corner. Using Jesus’ words works the best. The notion that another Church has it right and the Church that Jesus established has it wrong is a merit badge for pride, a foundation for utter failure. It’s found in the LDS story itself. A story I myself was told as a child. Who was it that thought they could do a better job than Jesus in this LDS story? It’s the whole fall in the garden scenario. Where even lying becomes accepted, where thinking one can possess the wisdom of God, even to the point of being a god. We know that this way of thinking has brought death upon all. The Mormon Church offers exactly what the serpent offered mankind in the garden. Everything earthly only better. Jesus in the dessert showed us how to say no to those things not offered by the Father. As Catholics, Trinity believing Christians we have to know this story to understand the direction the LDS are on so we can stay away from that direction.
Could you imagine saying yes to what Satan offered in the dessert? Like food? How about a lot of money? How about to possess all the wisdom of God? How about to have your family for all eternity. How could you say no to this? The only way is to follow Jesus and His lead. Very tempting stuff indeed. If you do not understand Christianity you could easily be fooled into becoming Mormon.
As an ex-mormon it is clear to me that Mormons have fallen for what the Serpent offered all of us. Their Jesus is the other Jesus of their very own story, they just got the two confused with each other. Neither being the Jesus that Christians profess. If they could grasp Trinity to the point of sensing it , and come to understand the meaning of Christ’s Cross, the washing of the Apostles feet, they may have a chance. It was not a great man or a great big brother that died for us sinners. Rather it was our Creator.
www.utahmission.com
The whole apostasy thing can be challenged at every corner. Using Jesus’ words works the best. The notion that another Church has it right and the Church that Jesus established has it wrong is a merit badge for pride, a foundation for utter failure. It’s found in the LDS story itself. A story I myself was told as a child. Who was it that thought they could do a better job than Jesus in this LDS story? It’s the whole fall in the garden scenario. Where even lying becomes accepted, where thinking one can possess the wisdom of God, even to the point of being a god. We know that this way of thinking has brought death upon all. The Mormon Church offers exactly what the serpent offered mankind in the garden. Everything earthly only better. Jesus in the dessert showed us how to say no to those things not offered by the Father. As Catholics, Trinity believing Christians we have to know this story to understand the direction the LDS are on so we can stay away from that direction.
Could you imagine saying yes to what Satan offered in the dessert? Like food? How about a lot of money? How about to possess all the wisdom of God? How about to have your family for all eternity. How could you say no to this? The only way is to follow Jesus and His lead. Very tempting stuff indeed. If you do not understand Christianity you could easily be fooled into becoming Mormon.
As an ex-mormon it is clear to me that Mormons have fallen for what the Serpent offered all of us. Their Jesus is the other Jesus of their very own story, they just got the two confused with each other. Neither being the Jesus that Christians profess. If they could grasp Trinity to the point of sensing it , and come to understand the meaning of Christ’s Cross, the washing of the Apostles feet, they may have a chance. It was not a great man or a great big brother that died for us sinners. Rather it was our Creator.
www.utahmission.com
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