I'm leaving my parish..

[Wolseley]

I had to search for three years to find a parish that actually resembled something close to a Catholic church. The parish I now attend looks like a Catholic church, right down to Stations of the Cross, prominent statues of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph; it has an ornate reredos with more statues of St. Patrick, St. Peter, and Our Lord on the Cross with His Mother and Mary Magdalene at the foot.

I should mention that our church is 150 years old, although most of the main building dates from the 1890’s. It has recently been renovated and restored. Here’s a picture below from about this time last year (the stained-glass windows were not up yet, they were out being cleaned and restored).

We also have an organist on Sunday mornings instead of either a rock band or a couple of hippies with guitars, and the “new” music is kept to a minimum, thanks be to God. Our two pastors are very orthodox, and for the first time in years—years—I have finally felt at home in a parish church.

This is a huge change from some of the parishes I’ve attended over the last several years, which were dreadful, to say the least—liturgical abuses by the score, music by loud, raucous bands that made you want to hold your hands over your ears, liberalism to the point of Unitarianism, and architecture that looked like a gymnasium crossed with a train station.

I am DELIGHTED to be where I’m at—and if God is merciful, I will never have another “Spirit of Vatican II” Mass inflicted upon me for the remainder of my life.

 

[mary_bobo]

I had to search for three years to find a parish that actually resembled something close to a Catholic church. The parish I now attend looks like a Catholic church, right down to Stations of the Cross, prominent statues of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph; it has an ornate reredos with more statues of St. Patrick, St. Peter, and Our Lord on the Cross with His Mother and Mary Magdalene at the foot.

I should mention that our church is 150 years old, although most of the main building dates from the 1890’s. It has recently been renovated and restored. Here’s a picture below from about this time last year (the stained-glass windows were not up yet, they were out being cleaned and restored).

We also have an organist on Sunday mornings instead of either a rock band or a couple of hippies with guitars, and the “new” music is kept to a minimum, thanks be to God. Our two pastors are very orthodox, and for the first time in years—years—I have finally felt at home in a parish church.

This is a huge change from some of the parishes I’ve attended over the last several years, which were dreadful, to say the least—liturgical abuses by the score, music by loud, raucous bands that made you want to hold your hands over your ears, liberalism to the point of Unitarianism, and architecture that looked like a gymnasium crossed with a train station.

I am DELIGHTED to be where I’m at—and if God is merciful, I will never have another “Spirit of Vatican II” Mass inflicted upon me for the remainder of my life.

I second that. My parish is 150 years old also with three white marble altars much like your church. It is not quite as traditional as I would like but the priests are great. When I want a dose of traditional I drive 35 miles to a church that has a Tridentine Mass twice a month. I would go more often if it were not so far away. The church uses Gregorian chant in the Mass and many of the women wear headcoverings. There are no altar girls. I’m sorry our OP can’t see the beauty of such a church.

 

[Damascus]

In regard to social justice-

Catholic Charities is the worlds largest charity orginazation that serves all faiths.

How much more do you want?

 

[Catholig]

My Opinion:

There is nothing wrong with Mantillas they only have to be worn for an hour or so once a week, and really don’t subjugate women or any other nonsense. In fact Mary always seems to have her head covered doesn’t she? The, as someone else said, most powerful catholic woman.

As for female altar servers. I’d probably side on the side of tradition and say that they shouldn’t, because that probably is a valuable source of vocations for the priesthood. We should definitely make sure there is an equal outlet for women though, because nuns are just as important to the church.

Confession during Mass? Wow! I never knew they did this. If they did it at my parish I’d definitely do it, but then again I’d probably still feel a bit guilty for I ALWAYS forget to confess everything I want.

Heterodox…The only word I’ve ever heard which would equal this (opposite of orthodox) is Neodox.

Catholig

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Yeah, I know the kind you’re talking about. They don’t want people to exchange the sign of peace. They spend more money on chalices than the poor. They sit in presider’s chairs that are more throne than chair. They enforce, with a near fanatical devotion, certain parts of the GIRM while turning a blind eye to other parts, all the while declaring their undying loyality to the magisterium.

I know your frustration.

Cheese:

St. Mary’s doesn’t exchange the sign of the peace either - We gather after mass to share a meal in the undercroft.

The chalices, thurables, chairs and other sacred objects were donated by various people throughout the history of the parish. Many are both expensive and lovely. One of the chalices we use for special occasions is probably over the top, but the woman who donated the chalice (she also paid to build the church) was also a bit over the top.

We just finished a campaign gathering winter clothing and other things for the Lakota Souix.

You might want to find out what the Patish offers for fellowship and outreach before you judge it.

Did you know that the Parishes and Dioceses that are returning to traditional worship are having the fewest problems with vocations and the other crisis the Church is having today?

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[LilyM]

Heterodox…The only word I’ve ever heard which would equal this (opposite of orthodox) is Neodox.

Catholig

check out thesaurus.reference.com/browse/heterodox and thesaurus.reference.com/browse/neodox

 

[Anima_Christi]

Yeah, I know the kind you’re talking about. They don’t want people to exchange the sign of peace. They spend more money on chalices than the poor. They sit in presider’s chairs that are more throne than chair. They enforce, with a near fanatical devotion, certain parts of the GIRM while turning a blind eye to other parts, all the while declaring their undying loyality to the magisterium.

I know your frustration.

The “sign of peace” is optional. Many, including myself, think it is a distraction from the real focal point of the Mass, Our Lord who is really present on the altar.

“Presider’s chairs”, as all furnishings in the house of God, the church, should look beautiful and suitable for use in divine worship. Chalices should be of the best material possible (like gold), should be beautiful and ornate, and, to paraphrase St. Francis, no expense should be spared at the altar. I see no problem in spending more money on the sacred vessels which will hold God Himself than on the poor. Aren’t you doing what Judas did when he complained about the woman and the alabaster jar who came to anoint Jesus’ feet? Your comments are very revealing.

I’m very curious about what parts of the GIRM your parish “turns a blind eye to” as well.

Tata!

 

[Anima_Christi]

Sounds like your priest is trying to bring back Catholicism to your Catholic parish

FOR REAL. I don’t know why everyone is complaining…it sounds like my kind of parish! Pope Benedict would certainly be happy about those changes.

 

[QUESTIONINGMOM]

Thank you all for your thoughtful and thought provoking posts. I am sincere in my post and am not duking it out as it is not my nature to do so, I am not as fluent in these matters as many of you are, and I am not a great writer.

**LSK and Ham1 **were correct that the primary issue what I perceive as a relentless negativity and lack of joy.

I enjoy liturgical music and a traditional service in general. I would not be leaving were my liturgical sensibilities being stretched and all else was okay.

For those wanting my parish location, if I hadn’t been so impolitic in my original post I would tell you, but I will say its in a large Western US city.

Thanks especially to Demascus for your kind words.

 

[Anima_Christi]

Catholicism as you understand it. There are other, equally valid, licit and acceptable ways to practice catholicism that involve altar girls, uncovered female heads, and social justice.

Please do not be insisting that your understanding of catholicism is the only “true” version of catholicism.

Cheese…there is only one version of Catholicism–the orthodox one. Altar girls began as an abuse, JPII only allowed them as a concession because this abuse was already so widespread, and Pope Benedict XVI has expressed his dislike of the use of altar girls. “Altar girls” are a complete break with the tradition of the last 1,980-something years (as are uncovered female heads…1 Cor. 11:2-16), and while the church has always emphasized social justice, they must take a backseat to doctrinal orthodoxy and evangelization (environmental issues, pacificism, etc. are NOT social justice issues, btw).
Sounds like you have a problem with Catholicism…please find an Episcopal church.
Thanks.

 

[Anima_Christi]

I have noticed that many female college-age Catholics (my parish is near a university) are wearing mantillas- at my liberal, Novus Order parish

Yes, I am college-age and it seems to be growing in popularity among young women. Praise God!

 

[leonie]

In general, I’m against parish shopping. If there are major abuses of liturgy, liberal theology, or scandel, I would think that was a just reason to leave, esp. if you have children.

A parish near mine has a priest who got caught agreeing to preside over a secret gay marriage. They have drums and electric guitar at Mass. The priest leaves the altar to shake hands at the sign of peace. Instead of reading the Gospel, he gives a dramatization of it.

Now, there’s a reason to leave.

If you are looking for a great opportunity to involve your dh in the Church, you might consider Challenge girls club.

 

[steve_green_2]

Sounds like a super parish to me. Sorry you feel different.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

FOR REAL. I don’t know why everyone is complaining…it sounds like my kind of parish! Pope Benedict would certainly be happy about those changes.

Anima Christi:

That’s one reason I posted about St. Mary’s. St. Mary’s belongs to the Anglican Church in America which is part of the Traditional Anglican Communion which has been in negotiations with Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI (first as Cardinal Ratzinger) for most of the last 12 years.

I figure if we can get it then the parishes already under the Pope’s authority should be able to get it. I live in the LA Archdiocese, and I can only say that it’s a crying shame when the Archbishop Ordinary chooses not to get it and to defy the Pope on something as basic as this.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[cheese_sdc]

Cheese:

St. Mary’s doesn’t exchange the sign of the peace either - We gather after mass to share a meal in the undercroft.

I understand that the sign of peace is officially option. I wonder about a person that would object to take the chance to interact with another person.

The chalices, thurables, chairs and other sacred objects were donated by various people throughout the history of the parish.

I assume you’re speaking of your own parish, since you didn’t specify. In my parent’s parish (I live in a different diocese), more money is spent on the altar vessels/church plant than helping the poor. That division of priorities I object to.

We just finished a campaign gathering winter clothing and other things for the Lakota Souix.

Great!

You might want to find out what the Patish offers for fellowship and outreach before you judge it.

Mmmm. I said nothing about your parish. I was speaking of parishes that I have lived in myself.

Did you know that the Parishes and Dioceses that are returning to traditional worship are having the fewest problems with vocations and the other crisis the Church is having today?

I really can’t confirm or deny this point, as I imagine those conservatives or liberals who editorialize these points do not have any date to back up there claims. When some scientificallly based studies are conducted by neutral third parties, then I will be more inclined to listen.

The “sign of peace” is optional. Many, including myself, think it is a distraction from the real focal point of the Mass, Our Lord who is really present on the altar.

“Presider’s chairs”, as all furnishings in the house of God, the church, should look beautiful and suitable for use in divine worship. Chalices should be of the best material possible (like gold), should be beautiful and ornate, and, to paraphrase St. Francis, no expense should be spared at the altar. I see no problem in spending more money on the sacred vessels which will hold God Himself than on the poor.

As stated above, I understand that the sign of peace is optional.

If you will allow me to wander on a tangent - I was listening to some old CA radio shows (not that old, from a week or two ago) and the topic was “The Understanding of God”. I would contend that our understanding of God shapes all that we do in liturgy and in our life.

I will share this: my understanding of God does not lead me to think that having a priest sit in a throne like presider’s chair is acting in the same manner as the person who washed the feet of the apostles.

My understanding of God is such that a parish budget should be first about the needy and second about the vestments and alter vessels.

My understanding of God is such that Jesus is not offended by people talking before Mass, or laughing in front of the tabernacle. In fact, my understanding of God is such that the Most Holy Trinity would probably smile at those people laughing and having a good time in front of the tabernacle. (Sorry, not related to this topic in particular, but a pet peeve of mine after hearing many people talk about how horrible it is for people to talk in church before Mass).

Aren’t you doing what Judas did when he complained about the woman and the alabaster jar who came to anoint Jesus’ feet? Your comments are very revealing.

And I guess the innumberable scriptures about taking care of the poor and ophaned and widows and alien mean nothing? Oh, and please refrain from personal comments. I have only commented in generalities about practices I noticed in unnamed parishes in different dioceses. I have not personally attacked anyone and I would appreciate it you would extend me the same courtesy.

I’m very curious about what parts of the GIRM your parish “turns a blind eye to” as well.

Let me say this, every parish ignores some part of the GIRM or this or that document to some degree. The parish I am thinking of is the same parish that doesn’t allow the sign of peace, but will allow fake flowers (a practice condemned, if I’m not mistaken). What would be refreshing would be a little honesty from those in charge. Instead of saying “We follow every dictate of Rome!” let’s all just take a breath and realize that we all just fallible people trying to work this out as best we can.

That’s all we are.

---

Dang it, these forums always get me riled up.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Thank you all for your thoughtful and thought provoking posts. I am sincere in my post and am not duking it out as it is not my nature to do so, I am not as fluent in these matters as many of you are, and I am not a great writer.

**LSK and Ham1 **were correct that the primary issue what I perceive as a relentless negativity and lack of joy.

I enjoy liturgical music and a traditional service in general. I would not be leaving were my liturgical sensibilities being stretched and all else was okay.

For those wanting my parish location, if I hadn’t been so impolitic in my original post I would tell you, but I will say its in a large Western US city.

Thanks especially to Demascus for your kind words.

Questioningmom:

The problem in your parish probably has nothing to do with the things that you cited in your 1st post.

*Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Now those who belong to Christ (Jesus) have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.
Galatians 5:19-26 NAB*

If the Gospel of Jesus Christ is being preached, the Sacraments are being confected and celebrated, the Catholic Faith Faith is being proclaimed and the members of the parish are praying for their fellow Christians in the parish and the world, you will see the Fruits of the Spirit at that parish.

I can guarantee it.

So the Question is, which one of those is missing? From the parish? From your own life?

I ask that last question because if you aren’t accepting the Gospel and living the Faith, and you aren’t praying for your brothers and sisters in the Lord, you most certainly will have the Joy the Scriptures said was to be our strength. The Fruit of the Spirit known as “JOY” is not a transitory emotion. It’s a state of mind that enables you to deal with life’s trials and tribulations.

Then he said to them, “Go your way, eat the fat and drink sweet wine and send portions to him for whom nothing is prepared; for this day is holy to our Lord; and do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength.”
Nehemiah 8:10 RSV

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Walking_Home]

My understanding of God is such that a parish budget should be first about the needy and second about the vestments and alter vessels.

And I guess the innumberable scriptures about taking care of the poor and ophaned and widows and alien mean nothing? Oh, and please refrain from personal comments. I have only commented in generalities about practices I noticed in unnamed parishes in different dioceses. I have not personally attacked anyone and I would appreciate it you would extend me the same courtesy.

.

---

We give our best—because He is our Lord—our God—the second person of the Holy Trinity.

This is what our late Pope said on this matter:

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0821/__P7.HTM
Ecclesia de Eucharistia
Ioannes Paulus PP. II
2003 04 17

THE DIGNITY
OF THE EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION

1. Reading the account of the institution of the Eucharist in the Synoptic Gospels, we are struck by the simplicity and the “solemnity” with which Jesus, on the evening of the Last Supper, instituted this great sacrament. There is an episode which in some way serves as its prelude: the anointing at Bethany. A woman, whom John identifies as Mary the sister of Lazarus, pours a flask of costly ointment over Jesus’ head, which provokes from the disciples – and from Judas in particular (cf. Mt 26:8; Mk 14:4; Jn 12:4) – an indignant response, as if this act, in light of the needs of the poor, represented an intolerable “waste”. But Jesus’ own reaction is completely different. While in no way detracting from the duty of charity towards the needy, for whom the disciples must always show special care – “the poor you will always have with you” (Mt 26, 11; Mk 14:7; cf. Jn 12:8) – he looks towards his imminent death and burial, and sees this act of anointing as an anticipation of the honour which his body will continue to merit even after his death, indissolubly bound as it is to the mystery of his person.
2. Like the woman who anointed Jesus in Bethany, the Church has feared no “extravagance”, devoting the best of her resources to expressing her wonder and adoration before the unsurpassable gift of the Eucharist. No less than the first disciples charged with preparing the “large upper room”, she has felt the need, down the centuries and in her encounters with different cultures, to celebrate the Eucharist in a setting worthy of so great a mystery. In the wake of Jesus’ own words and actions, and building upon the ritual heritage of Judaism, the Christian liturgy was born. Could there ever be an adequate means of expressing the acceptance of that self-gift which the divine Bridegroom continually makes to his Bride, the Church, by bringing the Sacrifice offered once and for all on the Cross to successive generations of believers and thus becoming nourishment for all the faithful?..
3. With this heightened sense of mystery, we understand how the faith of the Church in the mystery of the Eucharist has found historical expression not only in the demand for an interior disposition of devotion, but also in outward forms meant to evoke and emphasize the grandeur of the event being celebrated. This led progressively to the development of a particular form of regulating the Eucharistic liturgy, with due respect for the various legitimately constituted ecclesial traditions. On this foundation a rich artistic heritage also developed. Architecture, sculpture, painting and music, moved by the Christian mystery, have found in the Eucharist, both directly and indirectly, a source of great inspiration.

 

[Caesar]

I think the only way we can bring back reverance and dignity to the Liturgy is through the Traditional Roman Rite. The Pauline is greatly lacking, even when it is celebrated properly and solemnly.

The Liturgy must be solemn, dignified, beautiful and glorious.

 

[Caesar]

Just want to note,

I am not against social justice, but I firmly believe that the priorities of the Church must be the Sacraments first, social justice second (although I might be able to fit a few things in between).

Which is better, to fill a person’s stomach for a day or to fill their soul for all eternity?

 

[hosemonkey]

I think the only way we can bring back reverance and dignity to the Liturgy is through the Traditional Roman Rite. The Pauline is greatly lacking, even when it is celebrated properly and solemnly.

The Liturgy must be solemn, dignified, beautiful and glorious.

I heartily concur. I am old enough to remember the pre Vatican II Church. Much was lost in the confusion surrounding that Council and is only now being regained. It is a shame that younger Catholics have become inbued with the blight that VII brought upon the Church and the abberations that resulted from a false “spirit of Vatican II” that those who would destroy the Church foisted upon the Faithful.
A stripped-down (although valid) Mass, social hall atmosphere during Mass, altar girls(shudder) uncovered women and holding hands, joe-cool priests and feminist Sisters. Legions of middle-aged ladies hovering around the altar and guitar-strummers instead of Gregorian Chant. OK, I’m done venting. All you kids line up and take your shots.