I'm leaving my parish..

[Traditional_Ang]

Thanks for all your posts. I appreciate the time it took everyone but I’d like to close this thread as I feel it has gone off topic.

I’m sorry, but I don’t see how it has.

Our bothers and sisters here interacted with you and are now sharing with each other what they want to see in their churches and what bothers them and pleases them.

Unless you were insisting that the thread be confined to you and your complaint, I can’t possibly see how this thread has gone off topic.

I would hope that you would see that you have provided your brothers and sisters with the starting point for a discussion and try to join in.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

True, but if your church life is just meat and potatoes without fluffy greens, things tend to get “stopped up”…

ChemicalBean:

If that was a joke, you should have said LOL or put an on it…

I think we both know what Victorious was trying to say, that is when all one is fed is the “Spiritual Junk Food” all too common in many of our parishes, that it will be incredibly difficult to endure trials and tribulations (been there, done that) and to “digest” “Real Spiritual Nutrition” when faithful pastors try to provide it to us.

Most of us here know that God intends us to have a “Spiritual Balanced Diet”, and that He doesn’t want us trying to subsist on “Spiritual Junk Food” that makes us feel good for a short while but doesn’t really feed us or enable us to live a life in the power of the Spirit of God.

I think you’ll agree that too many Catholics have been fed far too much “Spiritual Junk Food” and far too little of “The Meat of the Gospel”.

That changed some during the Papacy of John Paul II, and hopefully it will change more during the Papacy of Benedict XVI.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Locutus]

I didn’t say that it wasn’t, I merely cautioned that one person’s vision of Catholicism shouldn’t be applied to the whole.

Well then! Lets go welcome back the Anglicans and Lutherans and tell them that their version of catholcism is okay and that we won’t push our Roman agenda on them! After all, according to your logic, we have no right to push our version of catholicism upon them!

Seriously though, that’s why we have the eastern rites.

 

[Locutus]

My understanding of God is such that Jesus is not offended by people talking before Mass, or laughing in front of the tabernacle. In fact, my understanding of God is such that the Most Holy Trinity would probably smile at those people laughing and having a good time in front of the tabernacle. (Sorry, not related to this topic in particular, but a pet peeve of mine after hearing many people talk about how horrible it is for people to talk in church before Mass).

Dang it, these forums always get me riled up.

Ummmm having a chit chat in front of the most powerful being in existence and paying no attention to him is very insulting. Guess what? God created us for one reason and one reason only: to show off his glory and power; and we should kinda stick to his intentions by giving the glory that he deserves and we have been given a wonderful gift - the real presence - so lets take advantage of that gift always, not just when it suits us. By disregarding th greatest miracle and gift known to humanity and showing no humility in front of such power IS EXTREMELY INSULTING imo.

As for talking before Mass - would it make Jesus feel good to have people talking and laughing obnoxiously before he sacraficed himself in order to save all of humanity? In case you didn’t know that exact same Crucifixion he went through 2000 years ago happens every time you go to Mass. So show some respect before such an holy act takes place.

These forums get me riled up too.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Traditional Ang:

I truly do regret that Cdl Mahoney will not consider what I understand to be “Anglican Use” in the L.A. Archdiocese. I think that is a terrible, terrible mistake. But he won’t be there forever and, even during his tenure, he might be eventually obliged to be more tolerant.

I don’t know much about your particular parish, and I am not terribly familiar with Anglican services (though I have seen bits and pieces on television and have read some of the prayers). But I am going to say the following in support of “Anglican Use” Masses if the time comes when certain of presently Anglican parishes come into union with the Catholic Church, as I understand some already have.

First, let me say that my ethic antecedents are Continental and (uh oh) Irish. Consequently, those thousands of “cultural memories” we all have through subtle inculcation from families, institutions, etc are not, in my case, English.

Having said that, however, I am an English speaker from birth and have come to deeply love the English language for its richness, depth and breadth of expression. One cannot be very well read in English and fail to have had some cultural “Englishness” rub off on oneself.

Now, in the U.S., we who are Roman Catholic have been struggling with some truly awful English versions of the Mass, foisted on us by the old ICEL, and the various bishops and priests who thought, for some reason, that the least expressive and least impressive use of English is the best. Some reforms are, God be thanked, in process. But much remains to be done. And meanwhile, (again, based on imperfect knowledge on my part) there is an English Mass called the “Anglican Use” that is astoundingly beautiful in its use of the language we all share. It is as expressive, profound and beautiful as anything ever written in the English language, Shakespeare included. It has much resonance to an English speaker of any ethnic origin. I love the Latin Mass, which does not mean I hate the Mass in English. Many would criticize me bitterly for saying this, but I think that, among the things Traditional Anglicans could (and hopefully will) contribute to the Catholic Church upon a “remarriage” would be the wealth of wonderfully crafted English liturgical language that Anglicans have put together over the years. Any negotiations between the Vatican and parishes such as yours should consider this with the utmost seriousness.

 

[Damascus]

You dont have to thank me- OP- I am humbled by that, and I return the thank you for helping me see that Jesus really wants Most of all is unity amoung his flock.

We are a body of Christ. The Catholic Church is a body of believers.

Keep in mind people - even the little children were being kept from him - kids can be noisy, distracting and even downright --you get the picture!

What did our Risen Lord say? Let the little children come to me!
Hard as it was for the ones who wanted to hear every word and action of our Risen Lord speaking, he admonished those who were going to decide who is part of the body of Christ- We as Catholics can not decide the matter as to who is “more” in the Body of Christ than someone else. It is not what WE need after all - it is what he wishes. He does not need us. We need him. We are a family. To be clear, I do not endorse or condone violations of the Church, and as long as there are no violations - this is a matter of another member of the Body hurting, as she only expressed her faith this way for so long. Here we are telling her that she is not seeing the light.
IF there were NO liturgical abuses going on----
you have bashed your sister in Christ for no reason other than to tell her -
I’m better than you! I know value more than you do and you dont see it!



Not good. You should have bit your tongue and worked on her after TIME.
Started a friedship and built trust before you bashed her on your higher than thou horse!!!

I am really not understanding this. She is a Catholic for Petes sake!
And you made her feel small.

Shame on you.

We are all baptized in the name of the Father and the Son

 

[Walking_Home]

Who started the bashing.

Quote= QUESTIONINGMOM
After over 20 years I am sad to say that I am searching for a new parish. IMO my parish has been taken over by a sanctimonious, officious, advocate of excessive religiosity, throwback to pre vatican 2, lunatic. No question really, just wanted to vent.

 

[February]

This happened in our parish as well, and many left for surrounding parishes. Our former pastor spoke about loving your neighbor, everyone is included, etc., while our new pastor, without necessarily disagreeing with the first, put more emphasis on moral issues that are plaguing our culture, including unfortunately, many Catholics.

One thing you might consider – if you leave Mass feeling a little uncomfortable because you realize that you might need to make changes to yourself, then perhaps that is Christ speaking to your heart. If, on the other hand, you leave Mass with a warm fuzzy feeling with no sense of mission or challenge to change your life…

It’s good to be uncomfortable.

After many years of the protestantation of our parishes, it is a shock for many when a priest comes in and reinstitutes more traditional forms of worship and values. For instance, the word obedience is a nasty word for many, but we’d all be good to practice it.

And what is “excessive religiosity”? Encouraging the bowing to the Eucharist or other external signs of respect? Can we show too much respect for Jesus? For some in our culture, just going to church or frequently praying would be considered “excessive religiosity”. And if there’s no sincere belief behind our external actions, then they’re right.

Perhaps this irritation is a grace from God. Pray about it. Maybe He wants to teach you something but you’re to angry to learn. Humility is the first stage of Wisdom. And is it really humility if it’s only done on your terms?

My thoughts exactly. When our new pastor arrived a few years back, I was in my “liberal, open-minded, I know more than the church” phase. (Not that the OP is, but that’s how I felt). I remember getting so irritated when he spoke so frequently on moral issues. (I was in grad school for social work and was being led against the church’s stance on many issues.)

However, I have gotten much stronger in my faith and believe I am at this parish for a reason. I needed some traditional Catholicism, because unfortunately I had never seen much of it growing up. Maybe you and your teenage daughter need it, too! I am also one to be upset by great change, but sometimes it is for the best. Good luck!

 

[Catholig]

check out thesaurus.reference.com/browse/heterodox and thesaurus.reference.com/browse/neodox

Well It is listed (before both orthodox and heterodox) in Walker’s Rhyming Dictionary as “a. Holding new views”. But it still probably isn’t the best word, that I concede because the definition for heterodox is “a. Contrary to the recieved or aknowledged standard; not orthodox; heretical”.

Catholig

 

[sneakers]

I had to search for three years to find a parish that actually resembled something close to a Catholic church. The parish I now attend looks like a Catholic church, right down to Stations of the Cross, prominent statues of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph; it has an ornate reredos with more statues of St. Patrick, St. Peter, and Our Lord on the Cross with His Mother and Mary Magdalene at the foot.

I should mention that our church is 150 years old, although most of the main building dates from the 1890’s. It has recently been renovated and restored. Here’s a picture below from about this time last year (the stained-glass windows were not up yet, they were out being cleaned and restored).

We also have an organist on Sunday mornings instead of either a rock band or a couple of hippies with guitars, and the “new” music is kept to a minimum, thanks be to God. Our two pastors are very orthodox, and for the first time in years—years—I have finally felt at home in a parish church.

This is a huge change from some of the parishes I’ve attended over the last several years, which were dreadful, to say the least—liturgical abuses by the score, music by loud, raucous bands that made you want to hold your hands over your ears, liberalism to the point of Unitarianism, and architecture that looked like a gymnasium crossed with a train station.

I am DELIGHTED to be where I’m at—and if God is merciful, I will never have another “Spirit of Vatican II” Mass inflicted upon me for the remainder of my life.

Your church is beatiful. How I envy you!

 

[Julianna]

The “sign of peace” is optional. Many, including myself, think it is a distraction from the real focal point of the Mass, Our Lord who is really present on the altar.

“Presider’s chairs”, as all furnishings in the house of God, the church, should look beautiful and suitable for use in divine worship. Chalices should be of the best material possible (like gold), should be beautiful and ornate, and, to paraphrase St. Francis, no expense should be spared at the altar. I see no problem in spending more money on the sacred vessels which will hold God Himself than on the poor. Aren’t you doing what Judas did when he complained about the woman and the alabaster jar who came to anoint Jesus’ feet? Your comments are very revealing.

I’m very curious about what parts of the GIRM your parish “turns a blind eye to” as well.

Tata!

Come again? “beautiful and suitable” doesn’t mean the finest cherrywood or ornately carved oak, money can buy. Do you think our Lord really cares about the “trappings” in a house of worship? Do you think the upper room where the last supper took place looked like Caesar’s palace? Really?

Chalices made of gold? My candidates for confirmation had questions about the “ornateness” they saw in the older churches and wondered if our plain looking parish measured up and if Jesus would come visit us, over the big cathedral in downtown Charleston. I was taken aback that a 14 yr olds would wonder about this.

I brought in a clip from the Indiana Jones Last Crusade…(the movie just went into video at the time)…and showed the part where Indiana, his father, the knight and the bad guys were in the holy grail room. Each got to choose the “cup of Christ”. The woman in the story was so enamoured by what she thought as “treasure”…chose the most “ornate, jewel decked out, gold chalice”. She dipped the cup in the water, and her companion drank it, and immediately dissolved. The keeper of the grail, said she did not choose wisely. In the meantime…Indiana’s father was dying…and he looked at the array of cups in front of him…and muttered…the cup of Christ…and he looked and looked, and found a small carved out, shabby looking wooden cup. He dipped it in the water and gave it to his father, who was healed. The keeper of the grail, said, he chose wisely.

Yes, I know it was movie…but it was “teachable” moment in a medium that most teenage kids understand. So let’s leave it at that.

The lesson was about, what is pleasing to the eye, is not necessarily pleasing to God. Jesus indeed is present in our plain simple church, just as he is present in the decked out church.

“Where ever two or more are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst.”

All that glitters is not gold. I would rather have a bus that can take our candidates to a youth rally or retreat, than a gold chalice and a solid wood chair that costs thousands of dollars. A bus benefits all in the church…you can only look at a chalice and a chair and solid marble columns and say…ooooooo ahhhhhhhh pretty. I would rather our DRE had the funds needed to support CCD for the kids attending the public schools, so they could have the same teachings afforded to the kids in catholic school.

 

[Vidi_Aquam]

Sounds like a good parish to me. Why dont you like it

My thoughts exactly

 

[Scottgun]

Is the Eucharist still valid at this parish? If the body, blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord is there, stay and chalk up beefs with the liturgy, etc to temporal punishment. I know I do when I hear Here I am Lord.

 

[Vidi_Aquam]

Come again? “beautiful and suitable” doesn’t mean the finest cherrywood or ornately carved oak, money can buy. Do you think our Lord really cares about the “trappings” in a house of worship? Do you think the upper room where the last supper took place looked like Caesar’s palace? Really?

Chalices made of gold? My candidates for confirmation had questions about the “ornateness” they saw in the older churches and wondered if our plain looking parish measured up and if Jesus would come visit us, over the big cathedral in downtown Charleston. I was taken aback that a 14 yr olds would wonder about this.

I brought in a clip from the Indiana Jones Last Crusade…(the movie just went into video at the time)…and showed the part where Indiana, his father, the knight and the bad guys were in the holy grail room. Each got to choose the “cup of Christ”. The woman in the story was so enamoured by what she thought as “treasure”…chose the most “ornate, jewel decked out, gold chalice”. She dipped the cup in the water, and her companion drank it, and immediately dissolved. The keeper of the grail, said she did not choose wisely. In the meantime…Indiana’s father was dying…and he looked at the array of cups in front of him…and muttered…the cup of Christ…and he looked and looked, and found a small carved out, shabby looking wooden cup. He dipped it in the water and gave it to his father, who was healed. The keeper of the grail, said, he chose wisely.

Yes, I know it was movie…but it was “teachable” moment in a medium that most teenage kids understand. So let’s leave it at that.

The lesson was about, what is pleasing to the eye, is not necessarily pleasing to God. Jesus indeed is present in our plain simple church, just as he is present in the decked out church.

“Where ever two or more are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst.”

All that glitters is not gold. I would rather have a bus that can take our candidates to a youth rally or retreat, than a gold chalice and a solid wood chair that costs thousands of dollars. A bus benefits all in the church…you can only look at a chalice and a chair and solid marble columns and say…ooooooo ahhhhhhhh pretty. I would rather our DRE had the funds needed to support CCD for the kids attending the public schools, so they could have the same teachings afforded to the kids in catholic school.

While I understand and agree with you for the most part, it is never wrong to give glory to God in human ways. If I was God I would definitely be amused and feel a little bit of sympathy for humans grinding their teeth trying to glorify him by decorating their churches.

Remember Judas and the Sinful women. The oil couldve been given to the poor but Jesus rebuked that through saying,

“She has done me a great deed today”

 

[jmcrae]

You’re right, it was just a movie.

Jesus was a Rabbi, and would have followed the norms of the Passover Meal as prescribed under Jewish Law, without omitting even the smallest detail - including the precious chalices for the wine.

Like us, He probably didn’t use these vessels every day - but (again, like us) He either kept or borrowed fine vessels for special religious occasions, such as the Passover.

Passover was even more important to the Jews of His time than Christmas is to us (broadly speaking) in our culture - yet I don’t see Christmas go by without someone somewhere taking it upon themselves to ensure that even the homeless eat a full course turkey dinner off of fine china, and drink cranberry juice and egg nog from crystal goblets on Christmas day.

If we who are sinners (and who often don’t even know the meaning of what we are doing) do this, then how much more must the Son of God have done so for the Apostles at the Last Supper. It is unlikely that Jesus would have used wooden cups or cheap silverware at the Last Supper.

 

[Image_of_God]

I understand that you people loved pre Vatican 2, but we all need to believe that Vatican 2 was the best move. Jesus is always with his Church and we can not go on believing that Vatican 2 was a mistake (just let me know if that is not what you meant ).

The good thing about Catholicism is that no matter if you are Eastern or Western Rite, we all share in the special sacrament, the Eucharist.

 

[LilyM]

You’re right, it was just a movie.

Jesus was a Rabbi, and would have followed the norms of the Passover Meal as prescribed under Jewish Law, without omitting even the smallest detail - including the precious chalices for the wine.

Like us, He probably didn’t use these vessels every day - but (again, like us) He either kept or borrowed fine vessels for special religious occasions, such as the Passover.

Passover was even more important to the Jews of His time than Christmas is to us (broadly speaking) in our culture - yet I don’t see Christmas go by without someone somewhere taking it upon themselves to ensure that even the homeless eat a full course turkey dinner off of fine china, and drink cranberry juice and egg nog from crystal goblets on Christmas day.

If we who are sinners (and who often don’t even know the meaning of what we are doing) do this, then how much more must the Son of God have done so for the Apostles at the Last Supper. It is unlikely that Jesus would have used wooden cups or cheap silverware at the Last Supper.

Jesus and the Apostles didn’t even have their own HOUSES to celebrate the Passover in. They had to beg someone to let them use his spare room. What makes you think they were traipsing around the countryside carrying special occasion fine china and gold and silver? :whacky:

 

[Julianna]

While I understand and agree with you for the most part, it is never wrong to give glory to God in human ways. If I was God I would definitely be amused and feel a little bit of sympathy for humans grinding their teeth trying to glorify him by decorating their churches.

Remember Judas and the Sinful women. The oil couldve been given to the poor but Jesus rebuked that through saying,

“She has done me a great deed today”

the poor you will have with you always…

she was preparing him for his death…some sinful woman…she was…huh? Jesus knew why she did that…thank you Jesus for letting women know how much they mean to you.

adding imported tuscan marble to the altar doesn’t make the mass more special…you all holler your brains out about the “theatrics” in the so called liberal churches, dancing, guitars, hand holding, plasma screens…but you fail to see the total waste in gold, marble, mahogany and cherrywood in the trad churches, you all have your own “theatrics” and stage settings. One tornado, one day could wipe it all out…would mass be over then? Would Jesus pack up and leave until it was all put back together? Where we celebrate mass, and what trappings we use rate low compared to the why we celebrate mass.

All these things will pass away…but I will not.

How is dumping on the OP going to help her frustration? Not much. Telling her put on her big girl panties and deal with it…wasn’t really what she was looking for. IMHO I don’t think she was looking for a cheerleading section to tell her she was right either…perhaps she came her to vent, and to be calmed into a way she can deal with frustration and move forward. You all are encouraging her to jump ship. Is that how we bring and keep people to the faith?

 

[Victorious]

Chalices made of gold? My candidates for confirmation had questions about the “ornateness” they saw in the older churches and wondered if our plain looking parish measured up and if Jesus would come visit us, over the big cathedral in downtown Charleston. I was taken aback that a 14 yr olds would wonder about this.

Actually, church regulations require that Communion vessels be made out of precious metals. Nothing on earth is more precious than what they hold, and they have to be up to the task. We cheapen the Eucharist in people’s eyes by deliberately using rinky-dink Communion vessels.

Likewise, churches built like warehouses erode our awe of the sacredness of what goes on on the altar. When we blur the distinction between our everyday surroundings and the house of God, we begin to forget the awesomeness of the mysteries that take place there. As Winston Churchill said, we shape our buildings, and then they shape us.

I’m curious to know why you grudge Jesus the best we have to offer Him.

 

[Julianna]

Actually, church regulations require that Communion vessels be made out of precious metals. Nothing on earth is more precious than what they hold, and they have to be up to the task. We cheapen the Eucharist in people’s eyes by deliberately using rinky-dink Communion vessels.

Likewise, churches built like warehouses erode our awe of the sacredness of what goes on on the altar. When we blur the distinction between our everyday surroundings and the house of God, we begin to forget the awesomeness of the mysteries that take place there. As Winston Churchill said, we shape our buildings, and then they shape us.

I’m curious to know why you grudge Jesus the best we have to offer Him.

The parish I attended just outside of Charleston used “metal” chalice during consecration…both species are used, and 4 regular glass wine glasses in addition to the metal chalice were shared amoung the parishoners. I can’t say if it was gold or not…it’s not what I am thinking about when I am there. It’s like going to your house and wondering if that is a real Renoir on your living room wall. How tacky. I came to visit you…not look at your furniture. Jesus is ever present during communion, receiving Him in a warehouse, a pup tent or under a bridge in a rainstorm is of no consequence…Jesus is here. Life is a mystery the moment I open my eyes in the morning.

Not sure were you think I am begrudging Jesus anything. If a church wants to built now days as ornate as the days of old…better call Bill Gates for some funding.