I'm leaving my parish..

[Victorious]

The parish I attended just outside of Charleston used “metal” chalice during consecration…both species are used, and 4 regular glass wine glasses in addition to the metal chalice were shared amoung the parishoners.

It is a violation of church regulations to use wine glasses to distribute Communion. Breakable materials are forbidden. What would happen if one of those wine glasses full of the Precious Blood broke?

I can’t say if it was gold or not…it’s not what I am thinking about when I am there. It’s like going to your house and wondering if that is a real Renoir on your living room wall. How tacky. I came to visit you…not look at your furniture. Jesus is ever present during communion, receiving Him in a warehouse, a pup tent or under a bridge in a rainstorm is of no consequence…Jesus is here. Life is a mystery the moment I open my eyes in the morning…Not sure were you think I am begrudging Jesus anything. If a church wants to built now days as ornate as the days of old…better call Bill Gates for some funding.

That could by why I think you grudge Jesus the best.

What makes you attribute materialistic motives to people who want ornate surroundings in church? I’m sensing a certain amount of pride over preferring plain surroundings, and judgmentalism toward those who don’t.

 

[Julianna]

It is a violation of church regulations to use wine glasses to distribute Communion. Breakable materials are forbidden. What would happen if one of those wine glasses full of the Precious Blood broke?That could by why I think you grudge Jesus the best.

What makes you attribute materialistic motives to people who want ornate surroundings in church? I’m sensing a certain amount of pride over preferring plain surroundings, and judgmentalism toward those who don’t.

I haven’t seen one dropped yet. I guess because the “adults” who are holding them are doing so with reverence and responsibilty.

Ok…if your diocese has a new church built, and the people who will be attending this church, want marble, et al. Go for it. I don’t “prefer” anything when it comes to surroundings. Jesus is present is what keeps me in awe. I thought that was the main reason we go? …ooo gee…maybe I was wrong…next time I’ll check to see if the confessional is laminate or real wood…my confession might not reach God’s ears through laminate.

My point is…it doesn’t matter. Jesus is the reason we are supposed to be there.

 

[kitkatty]

I for one do not like the sign of peace. In many Latin parishes worship has become horizontal, not vertical. When many do this they dont even do it properly. First it is Christs peace be with you but many will just say peace be with you. The peace is to come from Christ, not a person to person wishing each other peace. Second some people tend to almost make this a mini social hour-wrong! the purpose of Mass is to join in the perpetual aadddddoration of the Trinity going on in Heaven and to receive Jesus in His real presence in the Eucharist. I will say again, a vertical worship reaching upward to God, not a horizontal hour of brotherhood. Nothing wrong with the latter, just not during Mass. As for social justice, if we love and honor God above all and follow Jesus commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves social justice will naturally come of this. As for the chalice we are talking about the real presence of Jesus. Dont you think that deserves the best chalice a parish is able to provide? Having said that there are some fine Latin parish where the priest does a very reverent job of the Pauline Mass. Sorry for the rant, we obviously dont agree. Just my two cents worth.

 

[kitkatty]

Jesus just isn`t supposed to be there, He is there. It is a matter of ultimate honor and respect for the deity of Christ to have for Him in His place of worship the best you are able to provide.

 

[Victorious]

My point is…it doesn’t matter. Jesus is the reason we are supposed to be there.

If it doesn’t matter, then why the hostility toward ornate churches and those who want them (which may be more than you think)?

Here is some worthy reading from This Rock on the subject of symbolism in churches and at Mass (more reasons not to mess with church design).

 

[Traditional_Ang]

I haven’t seen one dropped yet. I guess because the “adults” who are holding them are doing so with reverence and responsibilty.

Ok…if your diocese has a new church built, and the people who will be attending this church, want marble, et al. Go for it. I don’t “prefer” anything when it comes to surroundings. Jesus is present is what keeps me in awe. I thought that was the main reason we go? …ooo gee…maybe I was wrong…next time I’ll check to see if the confessional is laminate or real wood…my confession might not reach God’s ears through laminate.

My point is…it doesn’t matter. Jesus is the reason we are supposed to be there.

Juliana:

The Church has used unbreakable Chalices since the ealiest days of the Church in both the East and the West. All the GIRM did was to try to put that in writing as several other sets of Rubrics and directives throughout the ages have done. That your parish choose to disobey this long tradition and then pass the wineglasses around speaks of a certain lack of awareness as to Who exactly is is the Chalice, or, in the case of your parish, the wineglasses.

Regarding Church design, the way Churches are designed, laid out and “fitted” is supposed to remind us of and draw us to heaven. That’s why Catholic and Orthodox Churches have been built the way they have for the last 1,500 years.

When you go in on your own, or before Mass, which makes you think more of “things above”?

Juliana, if instead of submitting to the Church authority that’s sitting in front of you, you disobey and the mock it and the person trying to bring you to obedience, how can you say you’re going to submit to the Lord you can’t see?

I know that’s a pointed question but the bit about the Confessional being Laminate or real wood was completely unnecessary sarcasm.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[kitkatty]

Not only that Victorious, but I think we are going to be seeing a move in the Latin Church back to the more traditional liturgically, probably hard for those who may only know a liberal style of liturgy.

 

[Walking_Home]

Come again? “beautiful and suitable” doesn’t mean the finest cherrywood or ornately carved oak, money can buy. Do you think our Lord really cares about the “trappings” in a house of worship? Do you think the upper room where the last supper took place looked like Caesar’s palace? Really?

Chalices made of gold? My candidates for confirmation had questions about the “ornateness” they saw in the older churches and wondered if our plain looking parish measured up and if Jesus would come visit us, over the big cathedral in downtown Charleston. I was taken aback that a 14 yr olds would wonder about this.

I brought in a clip from the Indiana Jones Last Crusade…

The lesson was about, what is pleasing to the eye, is not necessarily pleasing to God. Jesus indeed is present in our plain simple church, just as he is present in the decked out church.

QUOTE]​

Does our Lord care–and its not pleasing to God—Well I guess you will need to ask Him —when you are before Him for judgement.

Just to remind you----our Lord did rebuke the ones that objected to the women pouring expensive oil on Him.

By the way----how you manipulate your confirmation candidates to your way-- by using a movie—is quite clever.

 

[LilyM]

Some of us also appear to need a reminder of Jesus’ comments about whited sepulchres - beautiful on the outside but full of corruption and decay inside.

He also (as I recall) had a critical word or two about hypocrites with long tassels on their shawls and broad phylacteries (ie highly decorated and ornate articles used in prayer).

Celebrate Mass reverently but with the ‘joyful hope’ that the priest speaks of each week. Follow the rubrics - they matter! Only then worry about how costly, ornate and beautiful the church and its liturgy and accoutrements are.

 

[Walking_Home]

Some of us also appear to need a reminder of Jesus’ comments about whited sepulchres - beautiful on the outside but full of corruption and decay inside.

He also (as I recall) had a critical word or two about hypocrites with long tassels on their shawls and broad phylacteries (ie highly decorated and ornate articles used in prayer).

Celebrate Mass reverently but with the ‘joyful hope’ that the priest speaks of each week. Follow the rubrics - they matter! Only then worry about how costly, ornate and beautiful the church and its liturgy and accoutrements are.

---

Oh my LilyM— are you saying that beautiful churches are white sepulchres—full of corruption and decay on the inside—and the people who contribute to make them beautiful are hypocrites.

 

[LilyM]

---

Oh my LilyM— are you saying that beautiful churches are white sepulchres—full of corruption and decay on the inside—and the people who contribute to make them beautiful are hypocrites.

All I’m saying is that I pray that we all have gorgeous hearts and souls to match the physical environments and objects some of us seem so attached to.

 

[Walking_Home]

All I’m saying is that I pray that we all have gorgeous hearts and souls to match the physical environments and objects some of us seem so attached to.

---

Who above all----has the most gorgeous heart and soul—if not our Lord Jesus Christ. We advocated giving to His house a reflection of who He is----our Lord and our God.

It is not a matter of being attached to objects or environments. A beautiful church—reflects in part — the beauty that awaits those who will persevere and will be united to our Lord in heaven.

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0821/__P7.HTM

Ecclesia de Eucharistia
Ioannes Paulus PP. II
2003 04 17
IntraText SC - Text

1. Like the woman who anointed Jesus in Bethany, the Church has feared no “extravagance”, devoting the best of her resources to expressing her wonder and adoration before the unsurpassable gift of the Eucharist. No less than the first disciples charged with preparing the “large upper room”, she has felt the need, down the centuries and in her encounters with different cultures, to celebrate the Eucharist in a setting worthy of so great a mystery. In the wake of Jesus’ own words and actions, and building upon the ritual heritage of Judaism, the Christian liturgy was born. Could there ever be an adequate means of expressing the acceptance of that self-gift which the divine Bridegroom continually makes to his Bride, the Church, by bringing the Sacrifice offered once and for all on the Cross to successive generations of believers and thus becoming nourishment for all the faithful? …
2. With this heightened sense of mystery, we understand how the faith of the Church in the mystery of the Eucharist has found historical expression not only in the demand for an interior disposition of devotion, but also in outward forms meant to evoke and emphasize the grandeur of the event being celebrated. This led progressively to the development of a particular form of regulating the Eucharistic liturgy, with due respect for the various legitimately constituted ecclesial traditions. On this foundation a rich artistic heritage also developed. Architecture, sculpture, painting and music, moved by the Christian mystery, have found in the Eucharist, both directly and indirectly, a source of great inspiration.

Such was the case, for example, with architecture, which witnessed the transition, once the historical situation made it possible, from the first places of Eucharistic celebration in the domus or “homes” of Christian families to the solemn basilicas of the early centuries, to the imposing cathedrals of the Middle Ages, and to the churches, large and small, which gradually sprang up throughout the lands touched by Christianity. The designs of altars and tabernacles within Church interiors were often not simply motivated by artistic inspiration but also by a clear understanding of the mystery. The same could be said for sacred music, if we but think of the inspired Gregorian melodies and the many, often great, composers who sought to do justice to the liturgical texts of the Mass. Similarly, can we overlook the enormous quantity of artistic production, ranging from fine craftsmanship to authentic works of art, in the area of Church furnishings and vestments used for the celebration of the Eucharist?

 

[kitkatty]

I agree Lilly, pof course these things can become more important to some than the God they are meant to reverence. As long as we place the emphasis where it belongs I think He is just as pleased in either the plain or fancy Church .

 

[Julianna]

Julianna;1517030:

Come again? “beautiful and suitable” doesn’t mean the finest cherrywood or ornately carved oak, money can buy. Do you think our Lord really cares about the “trappings” in a house of worship?

Do you think the upper room where the last supper took place looked like Caesar’s palace? Really?

Chalices made of gold? My candidates for confirmation had questions about the “ornateness” they saw in the older churches and wondered if our plain looking parish measured up and if Jesus would come visit us, over the big cathedral in downtown Charleston. I was taken aback that a 14 yr olds would wonder about this.

I brought in a clip from the Indiana Jones Last Crusade…

The lesson was about, what is pleasing to the eye, is not necessarily pleasing to God. Jesus indeed is present in our plain simple church, just as he is present in the decked out church.

QUOTE]​

1. Does our Lord care–and its not pleasing to God—Well I guess you will need to ask Him —when you are before Him for judgement.
2. Just to remind you----our Lord did rebuke the ones that objected to the women pouring expensive oil on Him.
3. By the way----how you manipulate your confirmation candidates to your way-- by using a movie—is quite clever.
4. Yeah, I will, because by then, “things” will have no meaning.
5. yes he did, he let her use the finest…she probably spent her last copper on it. Wonder why she did it? She was a sinful woman…who made her living on her back. Perhaps she was looking for redemption…forgiveness…and the best way to that is to go to the one who loved her for the person she is…and forgive the sinner she was…so she took her money, bought the oil and perfumes and by annoiting Jesus she was “going now, and to sin no more”. That would be the last time she earned money with sinful acts. As a woman, I get it, and so did Jesus. And Judas…well, er…you know the story.
6. whoa, what a cute slam. I guess it was worth a confession to you. I did not manipulate the cc’s to “MY” way. Would you say to them that because our parish was built in the round and the risen Jesus is behind the altar, that somehow during mass, Jesus got disgusted and left? They would be better off, driving 30 miles into downtown to the cathedral every week? Where do you people get off? The chalice our priest has is more than likely gold, but our parish could not afford 5 “gold” chalices. I’m not sitting there in the pew wondering if the chalice is gold, glass, wood, or zinc. I know when I place it to my lips it contains the blood of Christ. I know that glass, wood and gold will pass away, but Jesus is forever.

Do I think ornate churches are wrong or bad…no…geez louise. What I am saying is they aren’t the end all and be all for mass. If you like an ornate church, good for you. If you like a plainer church good for you. I am at home in either. I’m not there for the “building”, are you? I grew up in a small ornate church in MA, moved to SC and the new church was more modern. But the mass is there, Jesus is there…and that is why I go. The church where I am now…is a bit of both. Makes no difference to me.

I’m not easily goaded into guilt. I will express my opinions as you all have expressed yours to the OP and stating she should be happy things are going “back”, and welcome it. Remember, it’s your opinion, but I guess it’s right…any other “opinion” or thought is immediately wrong.

Now I understand the meaning of the “The Christian Right is neither”. I never thought I would see the day that it included the Catholic Church. Extremism is a no win situtation.

 

[jmcrae]

Jesus and the Apostles didn’t even have their own HOUSES to celebrate the Passover in. They had to beg someone to let them use his spare room. What makes you think they were traipsing around the countryside carrying special occasion fine china and gold and silver? :whacky:

They didn’t need to. Keep in mind, they were working for a living, and they did have money. They most likely rented the room that they used for the Passover.

They could have borrowed or rented kosher Passover dishes. Certainly, Jesus, who never broke the Law in His whole life, would not have broken kosher law on the Passover. (If He had, the Evangelists would have mentioned it, since they often mentioned when He would heal on the Sabbath, and other times when it seemed to the Pharisees that He was not keeping the Law - even though in reality He was following the Law even more perfectly than they were.)

Keep in mind, Jesus and the Disciples were not beggars or mendicants. Jesus was a highly respected Rabbi - not a street person.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home;1518229:

1. Yeah, I will, because by then, “things” will have no meaning

.

1. yes he did, he let her use the finest…she probably spent her last copper on it. Wonder why she did it? She was a sinful woman…who made her living on her back. Perhaps she was looking for redemption…forgiveness…and the best way to that is to go to the one who loved her for the person she is…and forgive the sinner she was…
2. whoa, what a cute slam. I guess it was worth a confession to you. I did not manipulate the cc’s to “MY” way. Would you say to them that because our parish was built in the round and the risen Jesus is behind the altar, that somehow during mass, Jesus got disgusted and left? They would be better off, driving 30 miles into downtown to the cathedral every week? Where do you people get off? The chalice our priest has is more than likely gold, but our parish could not afford 5 “gold” chalices. I’m not sitting there in the pew wondering if the chalice is gold, glass, wood, or zinc. I know when I place it to my lips it contains the blood of Christ. I know that glass, wood and gold will pass away, but Jesus is forever.

Now I understand the meaning of the “The Christian Right is neither”. I never thought I would see the day that it included the Catholic Church. Extremism is a no win situtation.​

Those who will reach heaven will have the real beauty. Those “things” in His house here on earth—should reflect–our desire to reach His real beauty----a foretaste of heavenly beauty.

Wonder why she did it-----until you or I stand before our Lord and ask Him—we won’t know will we. Until then—I only know what our Lord did say.

As to the slam----there was no slam. I made an observation based on your own words.

Nice try on the Christian right and extremism—but it is false. What I say is following the mind of the Church. Her directives do tell us what is to be used for the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus. My opinion is in line with the Church.

Quote=Julianna

I brought in a clip from the Indiana Jones Last Crusade…(the movie just went into video at the time)…and showed the part where Indiana, his father, the knight and the bad guys were in the holy grail room. Each got to choose the “cup of Christ”. The woman in the story was so enamoured by what she thought as “treasure”…chose the most “ornate, jewel decked out, gold chalice”…

Yes, I know it was movie…but it was “teachable” moment in a medium that most teenage kids understand. So let’s leave it at that.

The lesson was about, what is pleasing to the eye, is not necessarily pleasing to God. Jesus indeed is present in our plain simple church, just as he is present in the decked out church.

“Where ever two or more are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst.”

All that glitters is not gold. …

 

[Victorious]

The lesson was about, what is pleasing to the eye, is not necessarily pleasing to God. Jesus indeed is present in our plain simple church, just as he is present in the decked out church.

But there seems to be this presumption, underlying your earlier posts, that things that are pleasing to the eye in church are inherently not pleasing to God. There also seems to be a presumption that by decking out our churches in finery, we are seeking to please ourselves. The burden is on you to prove this.

And frankly, I don’t think you can ever meet it. When our objective was to please ourselves with finery, we spend it all on our own homes first, and save the leavings for God.

By the way, if you can’t afford Italian marble, there are ways to give God His due and still economize. Here, for example, is a set of pictures of St. Boniface Catholic Church in Uniontown, Washington – the oldest consecrated church in the state of Washington. See how fancy it is? Do you think this is over the top?

See the extremely fancy altar and Communion rail? Guess what: they’re not marble. They’re not even stone. They’re WOOD, painted to look like marble. You can’t tell unless you go up to them and touch them. The materials weren’t costly, but it still represents the loving efforts of a lot of people who tried to give their best to God for His house. Certainly, the folks who built this out of cheap materials invested a lot more love and effort into it than people who deliberately make their churches look like garages.

When people without a lot of resources can build something like this – and this is a very small town, and folks were a lot poorer back then – it just goes to prove how little excuse there is for making God settle for rinky-dink.

 

[ravenonthecross]

But there seems to be this presumption, underlying your earlier posts, that things that are pleasing to the eye in church are inherently not pleasing to God. There also seems to be a presumption that by decking out our churches in finery, we are seeking to please ourselves. The burden is on you to prove this.

And frankly, I don’t think you can ever meet it. When our objective was to please ourselves with finery, we spend it all on our own homes first, and save the leavings for God.

By the way, if you can’t afford Italian marble, there are ways to give God His due and still economize. Here, for example, is a set of pictures of St. Boniface Catholic Church in Uniontown, Washington – the oldest consecrated church in the state of Washington. See how fancy it is? Do you think this is over the top?

See the extremely fancy altar and Communion rail? Guess what: they’re not marble. They’re not even stone. They’re WOOD, painted to look like marble. You can’t tell unless you go up to them and touch them. The materials weren’t costly, but it still represents the loving efforts of a lot of people who tried to give their best to God for His house. Certainly, the folks who built this out of cheap materials invested a lot more love and effort into it than people who deliberately make their churches look like garages.

When people without a lot of resources can build something like this – and this is a very small town, and folks were a lot poorer back then – it just goes to prove how little excuse there is for making God settle for rinky-dink.

You’re right. But I thought the laity did have any say in the style of church that was made.

 

[Victorious]

You’re right. But I thought the laity did have any say in the style of church that was made.

Actually, St. Boniface was built by German immigrants, and in the Baroque style of the churches they left behind. I think that tends to indicate that they did have a say in the style.

 

[hosemonkey]

But there seems to be this presumption, underlying your earlier posts, that things that are pleasing to the eye in church are inherently not pleasing to God. There also seems to be a presumption that by decking out our churches in finery, we are seeking to please ourselves. The burden is on you to prove this.

And frankly, I don’t think you can ever meet it. When our objective was to please ourselves with finery, we spend it all on our own homes first, and save the leavings for God.

By the way, if you can’t afford Italian marble, there are ways to give God His due and still economize. Here, for example, is a set of pictures of St. Boniface Catholic Church in Uniontown, Washington – the oldest consecrated church in the state of Washington. See how fancy it is? Do you think this is over the top?

See the extremely fancy altar and Communion rail? Guess what: they’re not marble. They’re not even stone. They’re WOOD, painted to look like marble. You can’t tell unless you go up to them and touch them. The materials weren’t costly, but it still represents the loving efforts of a lot of people who tried to give their best to God for His house. Certainly, the folks who built this out of cheap materials invested a lot more love and effort into it than people who deliberately make their churches look like garages.

When people without a lot of resources can build something like this – and this is a very small town, and folks were a lot poorer back then – it just goes to prove how little excuse there is for making God settle for rinky-dink.

Now, THAT’s a Catholic church. My home parish (St. Mary’s) in Memphis Tennessee, was built by German immigrants during the Civil War and was so beautiful as to bring tears to your eyes. This church was built by the sweat and gifts of people who had little materially, but who wanted to do something beautiful for God. As a convert, my faith was strenghtened and nourished by that exquisite old church. God deserves our best.