Im no longer going to be a Catholic

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Galileo was destroyed by the RCC *in that time. He was kept under house arrest
For 22 days, in a posh apartment, where he was visited every day by noblemen …
and suffered because of the isolation imposed by the RCC.
What “isolation”? :confused: Perhaps he was pining for a bit of peace and quiet, but he certainly didn’t lack company, and he was eating and drinking the world’s finest Italian food and wine.
He was excommunicated!
For claiming that science (philosophy) is superior to religion; not for his theory.
If he wasn’t mistreated why would the RCC later apologize for the way he was treated?
Certain people over-reacted, and the Church apologized for that. Galileo didn’t experience anything out of the ordinary, though. In fact, according to a prominent physicist to whom I am related, if Galileo had treated the modern-day Academy of Sciences in the same way that he treated the Church of his own day, he would have been bounced out the back door and down the servants’ stairs, never to be seen or heard from again - and nobody would be arguing about him, because nobody would have ever even heard of him.
 
Catholics always do the same thing. No matter what anyone says that is not in line with RCC teaching is attacked as false. No matter what. Every time.

I can’t provide evidence that you will accept because for you to do that would weaken the position of the RCC. No matter what the evidence is the RCC will always be above it and have an explanation that refutes it. Galileo was systematically destroyed by the RCC. That is a well accepted historical fact outside the RCC. Within the RCC it is refuted. I can’t help you if you insist on adherence to RCC taught history. The control that the RCC so covets is still operating well and you appear to be instrumental thereto, with all due respect…
Yoiu cant provide evidence at all. And even if Gallelio was destroyed by the Church(which is not true) it hardly means that the Church was anit-science. Given you made invalid claims about Copernicus ane Mendel it is hard to take you seriously when you make wild accusation about Gallelio
 
No, just learning about science. I have already told you that the RCC was a wonderful supporter of the arts.
😦 How is it possible to be so hard-hearted? You seem such an intelligent and curious person. In all sincerity, is there any love in your life? Love and God are mysteries.

I can’t go to bed with science. But I can go to bed with prayer.

In Christ’s JOY and Peace,

One single and joyful mom.
 
As to Galileo and Copernicus -

In terms of the Church, here was a group of human beings
who really thought that they represented the voice of God on earth. Magisterium.]

It is difficult to imagine, in our own day, the fervid belief -
on the part of a handful human beings, that they were
responsible for the eternal destiny of others. That in a
hierarchy of realities, all else was subservient to theological ‘truth’ -
…as truth was defined by men who actually thought that
God inspired them and protected them, utterly, from error -
in that which concerned matters of faith and morals.

[One must remember, I think, that it was the CC who
began the university system.]

In the end, who gives a hoot what the Church held,
as to the work of Galileo and Copernicus. It was
a world unlike our own. By the early 16th century,
Rome’s worldly power began to ebb. The following
century saw the advent of the wildly mis-titled ‘Enlightment’ -
which ended up evincing as ‘scientism,’ in our own day.
Scientism ---->that which is not subject to empirical proof is granted no truth value.

Both 'I’ve got the true faith!" and scientism - are equally extreme positions - which end up distorting the beauty and the breadth of the world, and man’s place in it.

This distortion of reality was seen most clearly, in the
attitude of churchmen, in positions of power, toward what
they held to be heresy

quote: reen12, from another thread
Whispers are often heard, when tyranny abounds - whether it was the Pilgrims fleeing England,
John Hus - trying to keep his light under a bushel? - or Anne Hutchinson, who miscarried, after being hectored by her fellow Christians, when she was put on trial - for months - including imprisonment, by a perfectly odius bunch of believers, before being exiled from the colony. Mother of 14 children, Anne would have been better off, had she conveyed her views in a whisper. :coffeeread:

g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SFxXNtXRL.jpg

[At one point, in Christian history, you never could tell when the forces of light and goodness would light a pile of sticks, at your bound feet…the more to give off the light of truth?]

An ‘illuminating’ period, in the course of Christian history?

Stake burning was not limited to Holy Mother Church - and her warm embrace of some of her children - which some of her children found too hot to handle.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

At given points, in Christian history, some could read the words of the Creed, by the light given off by the fires.

Who knows?
Maybe these fervid followers, of the Prince of Peace - got the
flames of the stake confused with tongues of fire. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

reen12
 
Well I guess it is a bit odd for a man to rise from the dead and ascend to heaven. I guess its a bit odd for a man to willingly die a gruesome death to atone for sins he didnt commit. I guess it was a bit odd for a man to turn water into wine and feed 5,000 with a couple loaves and bread and a few fish. I guess what sems odd to some seems miraculous to others.
My brother, if I may gently correct you; Jesus fed 5,000 - only counting the MEN. There may well have been 20,000 in that crowd!

And we don’t just eat the Host, we are supposed to gnaw or chew, as I have heard it translated.

God bless,
Mimi
 
I left because I believe in unity with all things. The Catholic Church’s claim to the one true faith was absurd (to me) because there are so many different expressions of the truth, all unqiue and beautiful. The Catholic Church was shutting too many doors for me. It felt dry. I felt I could not express my creativity. Catholicism labeled the Divine, which something that cannot be labeled. I am an animist; I have always believed that everything was part of the Divine Whole. While I loved Jesus’ teachings, I could never see him as Saviour, no matter how hard I tried. It felt wrong to worship him, and even when I was 5 I never could, so I had to pretend. I also felt a very deep connection with nature that wasn’t really recognized in Christianity. Everything was so doctrinal that I felt suffocated, unable to express any of my ideas. Whenever I tried to, I was told that I was heretical and my opinion ignored as Devil-inspired. And I didn’t believe in the Devil either. I didn’t get why Jesus had to save us with his death because I believe that Adam and Eve is a metaphor. I also question the accuracy of the Bible and don’t read it literally.

I don’t mean to offend anyone by this. Humans are very diverse; we all have different spiritual needs. Christianity is just one expression of the truth. If it works for you, great. However, it did not meet my spiritual needs.
 
Not when you consider the context.

All gods require that the sacrifices made to them be eaten at least by the priests, if not also the whole company of the people, whether they be human sacrifices, animal sacrifices, or crop sacrifices, in order that the god may complete the action of the sacrifice in the persons of those who consume it.

Our God sacrificed Himself for us, and (to show us that He is indeed God) requires that we eat Him (the Sacrifice), in order to complete the action of the sacrifice (in this case, salvation from sins) in the persons who consume Him. 🙂
Getting OT - if this is answered elsewhere please direct me (and forgive me for wasting your internet reading time):

That reminds me of a question I’ve had for a while:

When the Jews in the OT offered a bull (or other animal) and burnt it, didn’t they burn it until it was all charred and burned as thoroughly as possible? They didn’t barbeque it, then consume the flesh did they? (I know I’m showing my Biblical ignorance here; gotta do that Great Adventure Bible Study some time.) 😊

I know they roasted the Passover lamb and ate that.

Mimi
 
Getting OT - if this is answered elsewhere please direct me (and forgive me for wasting your internet reading time):

That reminds me of a question I’ve had for a while:

When the Jews in the OT offered a bull (or other animal) and burnt it, didn’t they burn it until it was all charred and burned as thoroughly as possible? They didn’t barbeque it, then consume the flesh did they? (I know I’m showing my Biblical ignorance here; gotta do that Great Adventure Bible Study some time.) 😊

I know they roasted the Passover lamb and ate that.

Mimi
From what I understand, the Levites burned and charred the parts that are not edible, and consumed the edible parts.

A friend of mine who is not a Catholic did a study on it one time, and what he got out of it was that he thought the Levites were just making the whole thing up as an excuse for people to give them meat to eat, since he thought it was “quite the coincidence” that God would require them only to burn the parts that are not edible.

I came to an opposite conclusion - that God loves his priests and thinks it’s okay if they don’t also have to go out and work for a living, in addition to their priestly duties; they can survive on what they are given for sacrifice by the people. 🙂
 
You’ll really love Calvinism 😃
…Obviously we view it differently (although as a protestant I could not say an infant is doomed to hell because they were not baptized). Particular as a Calvinist (Presbyterian) we have a view of predestination viewed as harsh by most … though of course we disagree.

Anyways, I’m glad there’s diversity in this forum. Shalom!

Blessings
Of the very little that I read of Calvin, I’d run a mile - in tight shoes-
to remove myself from his ambit. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

Kidding aside, sola_scriptura, 🙂 didn’t Calvin
hold that man’s soul was totally depraved,
due to the sin of Adam - and that only baptism
and accepting Jesus as God/man, Savior, would avail -
in terms of living life, eternally, with God?
[Didn’t Luther also teach that man was totally depraved, before baptism?]

Did Calvin, as well as Luther, teach that righteousness was ‘imputed,’
rather than baptism effecting an ontological change - a change in man’s very ‘being?’
Making the baptized a ‘new creature, in Christ?’

Calvin taught predestination, as I recall.
40 years ago, as I studied, I didn’t cede a lot of time to Calvin. The notion of predestination,
to me, was so preposterous, that I gave this not one more moment’s attention.
*

As to Noahide status, this, too, seems to be another instance of over-defining.
Of trying to ‘organize’ and ‘codify.’

The concept, however, is quite elegant, theologically. :coffeeread:

Best,

reen12*
 
Of the very little that I read of Calvin, I’d run a mile - in tight shoes-
to remove myself from his ambit. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

Kidding aside, sola_scriptura, 🙂 didn’t Calvin
hold that man’s soul was totally depraved,
due to the sin of Adam - and that only baptism
and accepting Jesus as God/man, Savior, would avail -
in terms of living life, eternally, with God?
[Didn’t Luther also teach that man was totally depraved, before baptism?]
We don’t have the view of Baptism or the “original sin” that is take by the RCC. However, Total Depravity is a core tenant of the Protestant faith, particularly the Calvinist denominations.

However, by Total Depravity we mean we are all sinners and spiritually discerned. In other words we are saved, predestined by grace and God’s promises are irrevocable (including those made to the Jewish people).
Did Calvin, as well as Luther, teach that righteousness was ‘imputed,’
rather than baptism effecting an ontological change - a change in man’s very ‘being?’
Making the baptized a ‘new creature, in Christ?’
Calvin departed heavily from Luther, who still had one foot in the RCC door. Calvin chopped the foot off 😃
Calvin taught predestination, as I recall.
40 years ago, as I studied, I didn’t cede a lot of time to Calvin. The notion of predestination,
to me, was so preposterous, that I gave this not one more moment’s attention.
**
Well, predestination is a reality. Can you really say God has not chosen specific people or groups of people throughout history? I mean that seems a little counterintuitive from your standpoint no?
As to Noahide status, this, too, seems to be another instance of over-defining.
Of trying to ‘organize’ and ‘codify.’
I blame law school – I like to systemize everything 🙂

I guess it permeates in theology, Calvin was also a lawyer.
The concept, however, is quite elegant, theologically. :coffeeread:

Best,

reen12
I only have rudimentary knowledge of the Rabbinical view of the Noahide laws. I blame Wikipedia … we can all know things to about a 80% certainty (with about 20% of the stuff on there being erroneous).

All the best
 
hello reen. I am doing fine 🙂

by God’s grace everything is joy. To rest in the arms of the Father and finally breathe with relief “it’s over”.

It strikes me and humbles me that you say God walk WITH you. He does because He is faithful and He is the most wonderful of Father’s. NOT because i deserve it.
I so love your reference to the pastures of the Father. I find it a beautiful image of heaven, a haven of rest and peace in His company and presence…
Hello, uglygal. http://bestsmileys.com/waving/5.gif
I am glad to hear that you are doing fine.

You know, I realize just what you mean, about

quote: uglygal
I found no peace because I can’t run the race St Paul writes of. I am not a spiritual warrior or athlete.
God cares for His lambs.

He has strewn the heavens with His stars, so they might
play connect the dots, if it cheers their hearts.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

A lamb is safe by Him.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

It is feeling totally safe in His presence, that is His gift.
It is coming home. At last, by the mercy of God, it is coming home.

God bless you, uglygal.

reens
 
I think we’re parsing words here. No rational person who believes the facts of Catholicism could possibly reject it. And anyone who seriously studies the history of the church would be hard-pressed to reject it also.

I’m glad to hear you’re not an atheist. You will be in my prayers!
Here is my story
As a child I loved the Mass, the Eucharist and Praying. I loved Jesus. But I also heard things from the pulpit and from the sisters that taught me that I knew in my heart were not right. I also saw supposed upstanding good Catholics be anything but good Christians outside of the Church. This did not drive me away from the Church at that time. No my leaving was gradual it was just easier and less embarassing to just not go to Sunday Mass than to stay seated in my pew during Communion. And the more I missed Mass the easier it was to continue missing. Then more and more scandals came to light. Talk about the Duplesis government and the Church in Quebec, then the abuses in the schools etc. just reinforced my distrust of the Church. She didn’t seem to live up to what she taught. Also I like many of my generation did not get a good education in why the Church said or decreed what it did. We just heard the decree. Probably because the Priests didn’t know and understand themselves. I latched on to the scandals and erroneous teaching as an excuse to stay away from the Church. Some 30 to 40 years (depending on when you would actually say I left) I returned to the Church. During the time away I visited services of other religions, but they didn’t have the Eucharist like the Catholic Church. Something was always missing. If you had asked me if I was going to come back to the Church 5 minuets before I said yes to coming back I would have vehemently denied it and I would have argued long and hard if asked to go to Sunday Mass. I always believed in Jesus Christ, the Trinity, the Virgin Mary, the Bible and the Eucharist I was just against the Catholic Church. My sister was dying and the Priest came to give her the anointing of the sick. I introduced myself to him as the sister that didn’t go to Mass. His reponse was that I would be in Church next Sunday, and I was surprised to hear myself answer yes and more surprised to know in my heart that that yes meant every Sunday from now on. * am no great scholar or thinker but I have come to realize that the Priests, Bishops, Nuns and Lay leaders are human people, who bring their training, predjudices, ways of thinking learned in the secular world to their ministry and teachings. They are Human just like us. We have held them up on high and demanded that they be perfect when they aren’t. They are human like us. The wife of a Protestant Minister once said to me that the more Holy we are and especially our Ministers the more the devil works on them because the bigger the catch that they are. I think she may have something there. My job now (instead of harshly judging and using the Church to excuse myself) is to support and assist my Priest, Bishop, the Nuns and the Pope and pray for them. The past is the past and can not be changed but we can make a difference in the future.*
 
As I read through this thread, one particular passage comes to mind:

"Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
 
Here is my story
As a child I loved the Mass, the Eucharist and Praying. I loved Jesus. But I also heard things from the pulpit and from the sisters that taught me that I knew in my heart were not right. I also saw supposed upstanding good Catholics be anything but good Christians outside of the Church. This did not drive me away from the Church at that time. No my leaving was gradual it was just easier and less embarassing to just not go to Sunday Mass than to stay seated in my pew during Communion. And the more I missed Mass the easier it was to continue missing. Then more and more scandals came to light. Talk about the Duplesis government and the Church in Quebec, then the abuses in the schools etc. just reinforced my distrust of the Church. She didn’t seem to live up to what she taught. Also I like many of my generation did not get a good education in why the Church said or decreed what it did. We just heard the decree. Probably because the Priests didn’t know and understand themselves. I latched on to the scandals and erroneous teaching as an excuse to stay away from the Church. Some 30 to 40 years (depending on when you would actually say I left) I returned to the Church. During the time away I visited services of other religions, but they didn’t have the Eucharist like the Catholic Church. Something was always missing. If you had asked me if I was going to come back to the Church 5 minuets before I said yes to coming back I would have vehemently denied it and I would have argued long and hard if asked to go to Sunday Mass. I always believed in Jesus Christ, the Trinity, the Virgin Mary, the Bible and the Eucharist I was just against the Catholic Church. My sister was dying and the Priest came to give her the anointing of the sick. I introduced myself to him as the sister that didn’t go to Mass. His reponse was that I would be in Church next Sunday, and I was surprised to hear myself answer yes and more surprised to know in my heart that that yes meant every Sunday from now on. * am no great scholar or thinker but I have come to realize that the Priests, Bishops, Nuns and Lay leaders are human people, who bring their training, predjudices, ways of thinking learned in the secular world to their ministry and teachings. They are Human just like us. We have held them up on high and demanded that they be perfect when they aren’t. They are human like us. The wife of a Protestant Minister once said to me that the more Holy we are and especially our Ministers the more the devil works on them because the bigger the catch that they are. I think she may have something there. My job now (instead of harshly judging and using the Church to excuse myself) is to support and assist my Priest, Bishop, the Nuns and the Pope and pray for them. The past is the past and can not be changed but we can make a difference in the future.*

Thank you for sharing that wonderful story!
 
Here is my story{snip}. His reponse was that I would be in Church next Sunday, and I was surprised to hear myself answer yes and more surprised to know in my heart that that yes meant every Sunday from now on. * am no great scholar or thinker but I have come to realize that the Priests, Bishops, Nuns and Lay leaders are human people, who bring their training, predjudices, ways of thinking learned in the secular world to their ministry and teachings. They are Human just like us. We have held them up on high and demanded that they be perfect when they aren’t. They are human like us. The wife of a Protestant Minister once said to me that the more Holy we are and especially our Ministers the more the devil works on them because the bigger the catch that they are. I think she may have something there. My job now (instead of harshly judging and using the Church to excuse myself) is to support and assist my Priest, Bishop, the Nuns and the Pope and pray for them. The past is the past and can not be changed but we can make a difference in the future.*
WOW, that is one great story. Your “yes” to the priest reminds me of Mary’s “yes” to the Angel Gabriel, her Fiat.

It took a lot of humility, faith, courage, and love for you to post this.
 
WOW, that is one great story. Your “yes” to the priest reminds me of Mary’s “yes” to the Angel Gabriel, her Fiat.

It took a lot of humility, faith, courage, and love for you to post this.
Yeah. Ladybug’s post gave me goosebumps and a lump in the throat.
 
Calvin departed heavily from Luther, who still had one foot in the RCC door. Calvin chopped the foot off 😃
That is verrrry funny. 😃

Hope I’m one of the pre-destined. http://bestsmileys.com/fainting/1.gif

[pocketful of various documents]

"No - honestly, God. I just got in the wrong line, that’s all.
I really was a fill in the blank_________]. See? Here’s my passport.
[Fumbles, trying to surreptiously finger the correct document.]

What are those? The things that fell out of my pocket?
Nooooo. Those aren’t indulgences. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif And if they are…
someone musta slipped them in my pocket, while I was praying…http://bestsmileys.com/sad/4.gif

reen12
 
I didn’t get why Jesus had to save us with his death because I believe that Adam and Eve is a metaphor. I also question the accuracy of the Bible and don’t read it literally.
I surely understand what you are saying. I don’t agree with all
that you wrote, yet I did understand, I think.

The Fall of Man, in Genesis, attempted to explain why
life is so hard, and sometimes bitterly unfair. So, in a sense,
the story was told ‘backwards.’ The composers of Genesis
observed life around them, their own lives, and crafted an
account of how men and women found themselves in the
world - facing hardship, uncertainty, crushing losses, and in the end, death.
Enter the garden, a tree, and a snake. Outcome?
Man now lives ‘East of Eden.’

Many centuries later, after the Exodus from Egypt, a new religion
stepped forward, claiming that human beings had needed saving
  • from something that didn’t exist. Original sin - inherited by
    the heirs of Adam. [No original sin, no need for a savior from same.]
Both the Hebrew scriptues and the Christian scriptures are claimed to be writings inspired by God.

One does not have to hold to a literal interpretation of Genesis,
to hold that God was conveying theological reality, here.
God created, man sinned, man is cast out of paradise.

Best,

reen12
 
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