'I'm no Marxist', Pope Francis tells conservative critics

[mcrow]

I think that, if we remove the ideological glasses that we’re all wearing, what Pope Francis says makes a good deal of sense.

Raising a hand to point out that capitalism isn’t a sacred cow does not make one a Marxist, just as criticizing liturgical abuses doesn’t make one a sedevacantist.

I’m no economist (though I have read a basic textbook, and found its tenets on the free market quite sensible) and I live with the idiocies of “big government” everyday, but the fact is that no human economic system is “perfect”. Christ’s kingdom is not of this world. In the meantime, we have to muddle on, choosing what is good from various systems while discarding anything that is opposed to the love of God and neighbour.

It’s also important to remember that material prosperity is not an end in itself. There are a few politicians in India who run on a “prosperity” platform, but whose people are unhappy in other ways.

I think everyone for the most part wants to help the poor. I think they disagree about how to do it. Here in the US it seems like the left wants to give everyone unlimited unemployment pay, get more people on welfare and medical assistance…ect. Meanwhile the right seems like they want to cut everything.

Ideally, we’d have a form of government that does not tax people so badly that they take 30-70% of their income. I believe people would be more generous donating to the poor if they were not giving nearly half of their income to the government who then waste a sizeable chunk of that money.

I also don’t belive Jesus would approve of forcing someone to help the poor as I think good deeds of free will is what he would teach. I think that it would be more Christ like to lead by example and do things to inspire people to want to be generous with what they have but let them do it of their own free will. Give better incentives for people to be charitable and I think they will be.

 

[mcrow]

Just to be clear, I don’t think Pope Francis is totally wrong in what he says. I think he is relating more to the Crony Capitalism that is truly a problem. Most people who are big on capitalism are not for Crony Capitalism.

There is nothing wrong with making as much money as you can in an ethical manor and it is also true that if done ethically in a truly free market it will benefit everyone. Business make more money by selling more goods or services. They make more goods and services by making big profits, building more business space(jobs), hiring more workers to produce goods and services (jobs) and using more supplies (jobs). This beneifts everyone. However, when you toss in crony capitalism it is as bad as the government trying to redistribute wealth.

No matter the system we know that people of bad intentions always take advantage of the system. Be it crony capitalists, marxists, communists or whatever. There are always going to be those that take advantage of the system.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Just to be clear, I don’t think Pope Francis is totally wrong in what he says. I think he is relating more to the Crony Capitalism that is truly a problem. Most people who are big on capitalism are not for Crony Capitalism.

There is nothing wrong with making as much money as you can in an ethical manor and it is also true that if done ethically in a truly free market it will benefit everyone. Business make more money by selling more goods or services. They make more goods and services by making big profits, building more business space(jobs), hiring more workers to produce goods and services (jobs) and using more supplies (jobs). This beneifts everyone. However, when you toss in crony capitalism it is as bad as the government trying to redistribute wealth.

No matter the system we know that people of bad intentions always take advantage of the system. Be it crony capitalists, marxists, communists or whatever. There are always going to be those that take advantage of the system.

This is part of what frustrates me. Everyone agrees with Pope Francis that there is much work to be done in the world, that nothing will happen “automatically”.

However, I don’t think Pope Francis really appreciates the good that is done in the world through ordinary commerce nor does he seem to understand exactly what advocates of free market capitalism are advocating. The good news is that he is a smart man and not an ideologue. One commentator drew a parallel to Pope JPII who came out of a communist country and had to learn, in office, how things worked in the free world. Only then did he really appreciate capitalism. Pope Francis has spent almost his entire life in Argentina where you have not only Peronism but also the typical Latin American culture of class division if not outright warfare.

 

[seekerz]

I think everyone for the most part wants to help the poor. I think they disagree about how to do it. Here in the US it seems like the left wants to give everyone unlimited unemployment pay, get more people on welfare and medical assistance…ect. Meanwhile the right seems like they want to cut everything.

Ideally, we’d have a form of government that does not tax people so badly that they take 30-70% of their income. I believe people would be more generous donating to the poor if they were not giving nearly half of their income to the government who then waste a sizeable chunk of that money.

I also don’t belive Jesus would approve of forcing someone to help the poor as I think good deeds of free will is what he would teach. I think that it would be more Christ like to lead by example and do things to inspire people to want to be generous with what they have but let them do it of their own free will. Give better incentives for people to be charitable and I think they will be.

The US already has some of the lowest taxes in the world.

I’m not sure where the 30-70% you quoted comes from.

[hide]History of income tax rates adjusted for inflation (1913-2010)[61][62]
Number of First Bracket Top Bracket
Year Brackets Rate Rate Income Adj. 2011 Comment
1913 7 1% 7% $500,000 $11.3M First permanent income tax
1917 21 2% 67% $2,000,000 $35M World War I financing
1925 23 1.5% 25% $100,000 $1.28M Post war reductions
1932 55 4% 63% $1,000,000 $16.4M Depression era
1936 31 4% 79% $5,000,000 $80.7M
1941 32 10% 81% $5,000,000 $76.3M World War II
1942 24 19% 88% $200,000 $2.75M Revenue Act of 1942
1944 24 23% 94% $200,000 $2.54M Individual Income Tax Act of 1944
1946 24 20% 91% $200,000 $2.30M
1964 26 16% 77% $400,000 $2.85M Tax reduction during Vietnam war
1965 25 14% 70% $200,000 $1.42M
1981 16 14% 70% $212,000 $532k Reagan era tax cuts
1982 14 12% 50% $106,000 $199k Reagan era tax cuts
1987 5 11% 38.5% $90,000 $178k Reagan era tax cuts
1988 2 15% 28% $29,750 $56k Reagan era tax cuts
1991 3 15% 31% $82,150 $135k Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990
1993 5 15% 39.6% $250,000 $388k Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993
2003 6 10% 35% $311,950 $380k Bush tax cuts
2011 6 10% 35% $379,150 $379k
2013 7 10% 39.6% $400,000 $388k[63] American Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012

Source

As to what your comment on Jesus and “being forced” to help the poor, I’ve seen that opinion stated again and again by different people. My question is, if we are talking morality/Christianity, on what document/teaching/passage of Scripture, is this knowledge (of what Jesus thinks of taxation) based?

 

[CaptFun]

Ouch. Hire a PR guy with some American sensibilities. That sounded a bit too much like “I am not a crook …” when it is run through a headline.

The Pope’s clarification of his unfortunately labelled “trickle down economics” warning that capitalism and prosperity is not the absolute cure to end poverty really helps make the distinction that he is advocating for personal responsibility (vs. outsourced social or political responsibility) and ACTUAL (vs. theoretical) help for the most poor and needy – rather than using the Vatican bully pulpit for weighing in on the more secular realm of earthly economics and politics.

As post 3 noted:

religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/1…not-a-marxist/

"The pope said in a new interview Saturday. “The promise that when the glass was full, it would overflow, benefitting the poor. But what happens instead, is that when the glass is full, it magically gets bigger and nothing ever comes out for the poor.”

RED above my emphasis … due to my further confusion. The statement as a whole is much better than the first one to demonstrate the Pope’s priorities (help for the poor vs. just blasting capitalism or conservative economics) – but the red words above beg more clarifications from me.

I love you Holy Father. I don’t always understand Jesus either. You probably have something profound to tell me in the second place. But …

What was the** promise **really? Who made it and when (or was this a broad generality without a specific historical example one can apply it to)?

The glass “was full” somewhere sometime? I do tend to think maybe the** closest **example of this might have been the U.S. under Reagan. But that glass wasn’t ever really full - billions were spent on an ongoing cold war - the government was divided (and from 1987 on Reagan’s party had a Senate and Congressional minority and no control. So maybe it is NOT Reaganomics the Pope had in mind (though apparently some sort of a trickle down theory somewhere)?

Happens instead: plural? I’d like to hear the specifics. If there are some I’d probably agree with the Holy Father in the details as well as I do with his advocacy for the poor.

I might be America-blind (not knowing so much about the rest of the world as I should) but perhaps the reverse is true for the Vatican – these statements seem to some of us to be directed here (which is good if we need it on a personal level - but still I don’t know exactly who, what or when the Holy Father is talking about). **“Instead” **- is the theory actually good … but mispracticed? Co-opted by a few with the opportunity?

" … nothing ever comes out for the poor." Emotionally and as an exhortation to the faithful, very good. Technically and logically "nothing ever …" seems a bit too broad to say the least. Personally I did better during the “Reagan years” when (coincidentally or by virtue of some of his economic policies) inflation came WAY down … which allowed people like me to buy a house at less than 15% interest (what we paid in 1979, a Carter year, to Home Savings for my mortgage as a 31 year old husband and wife).

I don’t believe Pope Francis is any stripe of Marxist of course. Rush Limbaugh’s statement about a published DOCUMENT, wondering if the Pope had been mistranslated in English, in that terms like “trickle down economics” and “unfettered capitalism” if editorially injected would equal " … this is pure Marxism coming out of the mouth of the Pope." (Limbaugh’s on air statement). < Is not equal to calling Francis a Marxist. But the proximity of those words, Marxist and Pope possibly spurred this clarification from Francis.

Which I am appreciative of.

Hope this statement didn’t get filtered through the US Embassy to the Vatican.

Wherever THAT is now.

 

[RPRPsych]

I think everyone for the most part wants to help the poor. I think they disagree about how to do it. Here in the US it seems like the left wants to give everyone unlimited unemployment pay, get more people on welfare and medical assistance…ect. Meanwhile the right seems like they want to cut everything.

Ideally, we’d have a form of government that does not tax people so badly that they take 30-70% of their income. I believe people would be more generous donating to the poor if they were not giving nearly half of their income to the government who then waste a sizeable chunk of that money.

I also don’t belive Jesus would approve of forcing someone to help the poor as I think good deeds of free will is what he would teach. I think that it would be more Christ like to lead by example and do things to inspire people to want to be generous with what they have but let them do it of their own free will. Give better incentives for people to be charitable and I think they will be.

I believe that the Government has a duty to look after certain fundamentals (by which I mean stuff like roads, public transport, other public facilities, and the military), but facilitate, rather than control, others.

If they didn’t have their fingers in too many pies, they wouldn’t need to tax us out of our wits.

(Disclaimer: I just got a pay hike which was completely cancelled out - to the extent that I actually take home less - by the current tax brackets, so I’m not a big fan of heavy taxation for the middle class.)

 

[SuperLuigi]

The US already has some of the lowest taxes in the world.

I’m not sure where the 30-70% you quoted comes from.

Source

As to what your comment on Jesus and “being forced” to help the poor, I’ve seen that opinion stated again and again by different people. My question is, if we are talking morality/Christianity, on what document/teaching/passage of Scripture, is this knowledge (of what Jesus thinks of taxation) based?

That’s only federal tax you are quoting. Throw in state and local and some people (like job creators) pay more than half of every dollar they earn to government where much of it is wasted.

In regards to the high taxes in the earlier 20th Century, those came with a whole horde of deductions.

Also, I’m not sure what you insinuation is about the rest of the world, but I do know the American left is insistent on doing what the rest of the world does, as if its all somehow consistent.

 

[seekerz]

This is part of what frustrates me. Everyone agrees with Pope Francis that there is much work to be done in the world, that nothing will happen “automatically”.

However, I don’t think Pope Francis really appreciates the good that is done in the world through ordinary commerce nor does he seem to understand exactly what advocates of free market capitalism are advocating. The good news is that he is a smart man and not an ideologue. One commentator drew a parallel to Pope JPII who came out of a communist country and had to learn, in office, how things worked in the free world. Only then did he really appreciate capitalism. Pope Francis has spent almost his entire life in Argentina where you have not only Peronism but also the typical Latin American culture of class division if not outright warfare.

Are you suggesting that the Pope does not understand what goes on in the world outside the environment he grew up in? Yet you state that he is a smart man? I’m puzzled: would a smart man for example, not appreciate the power that public pressure (particularly from conscious consumers) can have in determining working conditions in the sweatshops of Bangladesh? I think a smart man will understand that great positive change has been brought about, not just by people making more money, but by the social pressures stimulated by men and women of good conscience. Historically, whether it has been in opposing child labor, changing the appalling working conditions of the early industrial era, ending apartheid or moving to stem the human carnage involved in production of “blood diamonds” - it has always been social movements (often global) versus cold financial calculations.

 

[seekerz]

That’s only federal tax you are quoting. Throw in state and local and some people (like job creators) pay more than half of every dollar they earn to government where much of it is wasted.

In regards to the high taxes in the earlier 20th Century, those came with a whole horde of deductions.

Also, I’m not sure what you insinuation is about the rest of the world, but I do know the American left is insistent on doing what the rest of the world does, as if its all somehow consistent.

Want to add state and local taxes or whatever…let’s see the data. I gave a table, what can you offer?

Considering that we are (and will eternally be) only one subset of the billions placed on this planet, I’m not sure what exactly is wrong in making reference to the rest of the world. I’m pretty sure Pope Francis’ perspective and his words are meant to include the whole world.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Historically, whether it has been in opposing child labor, changing the appalling working conditions of the early industrial era, ending apartheid or moving to stem the human carnage involved in production of “blood diamonds” - it has always been social movements (often global) versus cold financial calculations.

That’s how some people see the world, yes. Very sad.

 

[seekerz]

That’s how some people see the world, yes. Very sad.

What is sad is the things we do to each other in the name of…well I’m not really sure in the name of who or what actually, since treating each other well enriches us all.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

What is sad is the things we do to each other in the name of…well I’m not really sure in the name of who or what actually, since treating each other well enriches us all.

Let me help you out: the things we do to each other in the name of “justice”.

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be “cured” against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.–CS Lewis

 

[mcrow]

The US already has some of the lowest taxes in the world.

I’m not sure where the 30-70% you quoted comes from.

By time you get done with state and federal income tax, FICA, property tax, tax on your retirement accounts…ect. I pay over 40% of my yearly income to some sort of tax. That does not include around 7% on sales here in MN on top of that. And we are middle class.

As to what your comment on Jesus and “being forced” to help the poor, I’ve seen that opinion stated again and again by different people. My question is, if we are talking morality/Christianity, on what document/teaching/passage of Scripture, is this knowledge (of what Jesus thinks of taxation) based?

Free will my friend, it is a teaching of the church. You cannot truly love without free will. Helping the poor is an act of love for your fellow human being and if it is forced it is not free will. Just as God gave us free will so that we could enter into loving relationship with him we are to do our best to do the same with His other children.

So, while I’m not going to quote any bible verses I believe that based on free will that forcing any one to be generous isn’t what Jesus would want. I believe it pleases him much more that people are able to do that just because they want to.

 

[ReConverted]

It’s called VOTING.

 

[ReConverted]

People who become Marxist (or liberal for that matter) seem to think that they will get more, not have to give up things.

Actually, that’s Conservatism.

 

[mcrow]

Actually, that’s Conservatism.

No, Marxism ends up being authoritarian. Both liberals and conservatives tend to be authoritarian to some degree.

 

[ReConverted]

No, Marxism ends up being authoritarian. Both liberals and conservatives tend to be authoritarian to some degree.

If you don’t mind me asking, just so I’m clear on your meaning, when you refer to Marxism are you referring to Socialism, Democratic Socialism, or Communism (Which was and is often falsely called "Socialism)? Thanks!

 

[mcrow]

If you don’t mind me asking, just so I’m clear on your meaning, when you refer to Marxism are you referring to Socialism, Democratic Socialism, or Communism (Which was and is often falsely called "Socialism)? Thanks!

I’m talking about socialism.

 

[ReConverted]

I’m talking about socialism.

Thank you!

 

[mcrow]

Thank you!

Also to clarify, my opinion is that you go in this order:

Governments start out as Socialist and end up Fascist when a dictator takes over. Socialism as a basic idea isn’t bad, everyone shares everything and everyone has what they need. However, the issue is that it relys on everyone being morally correct and willing to participate. As we know from history, not everyone is pure of heart and eventually one with a dark heart ends up in charge of everything.

Now, authoritarian governments generally speaknig are also fascist.

Some would say that liberals are socialists and conservatives are authoritarians but neither is totally correct. Liberals would like nothing more to make laws against religious beliefs, is much more pro big government which are definitely authoritarian stances. On the other hand, some conservatives can be very nationalistic which is authoritarian as well.