I'm not a Catholic because

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miztyzo562;8502081:
They are still attributed to pagan beliefs and practice…what in the world does this mean?
And the last I checked, Yeshua, the Protestant/Jewish attempt to inculcate the Jewish notion that we need to make Christianity more Jewish…Paul told us in Romans to nix that…

Mary did not die on a cross and the CC does not elevate her to the status of Christ.

Why are you here? I do not see you asking any questions. This is not Protestant/Jewish question and bashing, it is Catholic Answers…rethink your posting.👍

I doubt you have anything of value to teach or bring to the table based on what I have seen you post.:eek:
First off, read the entirety of the replys which should answer the first question above. Secondly, Paul said alot of things contradictory to what Yeshua taught but if you want to take what Paul taught over the Lord then 👍(to add to that Ieosus is Greek which the Lord wasnt), and Third this is “The NoN Catholic Religions” thread.;). Also if the last portion in red is true, then why are statues of Mary being worshiped??
 
miztyzo562;8502081:
Sorry for asking…🙂

Why would you say, “last I checked, Yeshua (Jesus) died on the cross, not Mary?”

Did someone suggest otherwise? :eek:
Im sorry, I might have misunderstood your “So it’s OK with Jesus but not with his mother?” part of the reply.
 
CopticChristian;8502100:
First off, read the entirety of the replys which should answer the first question above. Secondly, Paul said alot of things contradictory to what Yeshua taught
but if you want to take what Paul taught over the Lord then 👍(to add to that Ieosus is Greek which the Lord wasnt), and Third this is “The NoN Catholic Religions” thread.;). Also if the last portion in red is true, then why are statues of Mary being worshiped??

O learned one. Please tell me what Paul taught that was contrary to Jesus, Jesus, Jesus…Jesus…please tell me. Let us know.

The Catholic Church condemned Mary worship in the 3rd Century Jewish/Protestant.
 
Prodigal Anglican, Those beliefs would be on my list also. I am curious why the Catholics believe these things.

Telestia
I can understand expecially with the papal infallibility and the celibate priesthood as these are things that I find hard about the faith.

Celibate priesthood comes from Paul’s letters where somewhere he states that the Bishops and priests should be celibate (but the priest was referred to as something like a presbyter I think.

The Papal infallibility is just something you have to come to terms with. My suggestion is to look at the Pope’s writings on the faith (as only that is infallible) and see if you can find an error. Really infallibility is about the same as coming to believe the Bible is infallible.

You personally, don’t have to worry about the apparitions as those are outside of the deposit of faith and you are not required to believe in them. Marian dogmas are harder but the Bible kind of hints at it. I find that it would fall under “stand firm and hold fast to your traditions whether by word or by letter of ours”.

Indulgences were extremely abused in the middle ages and are really just prayers in which we ask God to forgive and purify those who have died. In the book of Maccabees, there is a passage where they pray for the dead that their sins would be forgiven. Christ also references to how certain sins would not be forgiven even in the next life implying that sins will be forgiven. It really is just like praying for the dead.

I hope this helps (although you may have heard this before :rolleyes:) A lot of this we find from the Bible which is expanded upon through tradition. It is similar to how the Jewish people have the Torah but they also have the Talmud which is the teachings of the Rabbis which further explains and clarifies the teachings and laws of the Torah. But good luck and God bless.
 
What does the Bible say about graven images? I also cant fathom how a giant egyptian obelisk is a silent witness, also considering the egyptian religions had already fallen prior to the Birth of our Lord. And if your referring to the parallels attributed to Mithras, then thats where faith kicks in. Also to note the use of coptic shells, the “all seeing eye” in cathedrals, the “Pine Cones” and the list goes on and on.
Pardon me…but what does coptic shells as “all seeing eye” and Pines cones have to do with pagans, and what is the parallel in the Catholic church?

I have not heard this before…sorry.
 
miztyzo562;8502117:
O learned one. Please tell me what Paul taught that was contrary to Jesus, Jesus, Jesus…Jesus…please tell me. Let us know.

The Catholic Church condemned Mary worship in the 3rd Century Jewish/Protestant.
Romans 9:15-18 vs Matthew 5:7
And if that is true, then how do you explain this google.com/search?hl=en&sugexp=kjrmc&cp=9&gs_id=r&xhr=t&q=mary+worship&biw=1280&bih=464&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi
 
Pardon me…but what does coptic shells as “all seeing eye” and Pines cones have to do with pagans, and what is the parallel in the Catholic church?

I have not heard this before…sorry.
The Pine Cone was a pagan symbol of fertility/ the all seeing eye dates back to Egyptian mythos. They are all related to the Catholic Church because you can find all of these in cathedrals across the world. As well as many other forms of ancient pagan worship.
 
CopticChristian;8502136:
I would suggest you try looking into reading the Catechism, asking questions here, and as far as I can recall, the Catholic Church and Christianity preceeded Google.

catholic.com/quickquestions/has-the-church-ever-condemned-any-marian-devotions-as-idolatrous

Has the Church ever condemned any Marian devotions as idolatrous?

Yes. In the fourth to fifth centuries there was a heresy known as Collyridianism, in which the adherents treated the Virgin Mary as a goddess by offering to her a bread sacrifice during their liturgies. The primary defender of the orthodox Catholic position was St. Ephiphanius of Salamis in his work Panarion.

Check this out on Google…

google.com/search?hl=en&sugexp=kjrmc&cp=9&gs_id=r&xhr=t&q=mary+worship&biw=1280&bih=464&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi#um=1&hl=en&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=Messianic+Protestant+Heresy&oq=Messianic+Protestant+Heresy&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=0l0l4l1468l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=4624f5d1da3f873c&biw=1024&bih=549
 
The Pine Cone was a pagan symbol of fertility/ the all seeing eye dates back to Egyptian mythos. They are all related to the Catholic Church because you can find all of these in cathedrals across the world. .
Thanks…

Pine cone as a symbol of fertility…where was this practiced? I have never heard this before.

Maybe since you know a lot, which particular part of the CC use pine cones as symbols of fertility? What I know is those who are infertile ask for the intercession of the saints, and not use symbols of fertility.

As for the “all seeing eye”…can you point to a cathedral that has this and it is actually used as you say? I have really heard this before than what you posted.
As well as many other forms of ancient pagan worship
Well, the CC only has the mass for worship…so what is pagan about the mass? Or came from pagans?
 
** I come from a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage,** and some years ago spent time in a monastery, I was deeply interested in spirituality and looked into a variety of expressions of the Christian faith. Non-Christian religions also interested me, but I always had a wish to follow the teaching and example of Christ.

** Over the years I began to doubt Catholic Christianity as well as evangelical Protestant Christianity**. Both seem so dogmatic. You have to believe this or that. I wanted and needed the right to investigate, examine, weigh, doubt, etc. I was uncomfortable accepting what any priest or pastor was telling me I had to believe. Much of the problem is centered in scripture. I found the first 11 chapters of Genesis impossible to believe - Adam and Eve, God drowning everybody but Noah and his family, a tower built into heaven led to the creation of separate languages - etc. Just too much mythology to swallow as religious doctrine. I view such stories as parables, legends, etc., not factual…
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  **Gradually I began to feel most comfortable among mainline Protestantism which seems to accept differences of opinion**. The Methodists, UCC, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and some Baptists and Lutherans permit true freedom of religion. You have Bible classes where various people interpret different passages differently without being scolded or accused of 'heresy'. 

**  I also have been alienated by certain other verses in the Bible.** For example, Ex. 22: 18, 20 - declaring that witches and non-believers should be killed! Or, how God supposedly ordered Joshua to commit genocide once he captured Jericho and how Saul was commanded to slaughter every remaining Amalekite. My God would never demand such outrageous atrocities.
** I also find Catholicism very tribal.** A lot seems to be made our of converts (EWTN etc). Mainline Protestant churches appear full of ex-Catholics but nothing is made of that. It’s simply like moving into another room in the Christian family home. Protestants also go from one church to another with little or no problem. Mainline denominations cooperate together through the World and National Councils of Churches. There is no sense that only ‘my church’ is the one true church. My conclusion is that doctrinal purity and church affiliation are secondary. See again Matt, 25:31ff.

** We could go on, but perhaps I’ve made my point.** Catholicism has been responsible for so much good in such areas as medicine, education, feeding the hungry, etc., and that remains very attractive. But I’m simply not able to believe doctrines that strike me as against reason and/or common sense. I need a faith that my mind can honestly embrace.
Well fortunately the wonders of Apostolic Succession answer all of that for you. That is something you can research outside of the Bible since you can’t seem to reconcile the God who became Christ and the God you invent for your own personal faith 😉 Christ never left a book behind Him. He left a Church. And history itself, as well as Sacred Scripture show us beyond doubt that this Church is the Catholic Church. There is no debate about that. God says it through Scripture as well as through time. History shows us this. It wasn’t until Luther rebelled against the Church and created his own religion that the heresies of sola scriptura and sola fide etc etc began to be perpetuated. And the end goal of his and others rebellion from God’s Church is dozens of mainline protestant churches as well as thousands if not tens of thousands of independent non denominational churches. All their pastors/ministers/etc are self ordained. They give themselves the authority of God when they were not granted it. Therefore they have no authority. Apostolic Succession was started by Jesus Christ Himself. He raised the Apostles to His Priesthood, And they laid hands on their disciples who laid hands on their disciples and this unbroken chain (as promised by Christ in Matthew) goes from Christ to modern day with any single Deacon/Priest/Bishop/Cardinal etc No other faith has that. They were started by men. So remember that when deciding where you wish to reside. With men or with God. To me and countless others, the answer is simple.
 
miztyzo562;8502159:
You still haven’t addressed as to why Catholics still bow and worship to statues of Mary in the 20th century as my link clearly shows. As for the link you’ve provided:shrug:, it proves nothing.
 
Thanks…

Pine cone as a symbol of fertility…where was this practiced? I have never heard this before.

Maybe since you know a lot, which particular part of the CC use pine cones as symbols of fertility? What I know is those who are infertile ask for the intercession of the saints, and not use symbols of fertility.

As for the “all seeing eye”…can you point to a cathedral that has this and it is actually used as you say? I have really heard this before than what you posted.

Well, the CC only has the mass for worship…so what is pagan about the mass? Or came from pagans?
PM sent
 
CopticChristian;8502100:
First off, read the entirety of the replys which should answer the first question above. Secondly, Paul said alot of things contradictory to what Yeshua taught but if you want to take what Paul taught over the Lord then 👍(to add to that Ieosus is Greek which the Lord wasnt), and Third this is “The NoN Catholic Religions” thread.;). Also if the last portion in red is true, then why are statues of Mary being worshiped??
What things did Paul say that contradicted teachings of Christ? The bible cannot contradict itself. I would like to know what teachings of Paul you believe contradict teachings of Christ.

Woreshipping any statues, including statues of Mary, is condemened in Catholocism and breaks the first commandment.

“I am the LORD your God:
you shall not have
strange Gods before me.”

Simply having statues or pictures does not mean worship. For example I have pictures of my family in my house because I like to be reminded of them. Likewise someone may have pictures or statues of Mary to be reminded of good ways we can follow Christ.
 
miztyzo562;8502117:
What things did Paul say that contradicted teachings of Christ? The bible cannot contradict itself. I would like to know what teachings of Paul you believe contradict teachings of Christ.

Simply having statues or pictures does not mean worship. For example I have pictures of my family in my house because I like to be reminded of them. Likewise someone may have pictures or statues of Mary to be reminded of good ways we can follow Christ.
Again Romans 9:15-18 vs Matthew 5:7 for one.
the link I provided in an earlier reply should answer your second question. Im glad you brought up the Commandments. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”
 
Why am I not a Catholic? Short answer: Papal infalability, Marian dogmas/apparations, dogmas about relics, purgatory, the celibate priesthood, and indulgences . There are more but those are the main stumbling blocks for me.
Welcome to the thread Prodigal! And Telestia, if you too find these issues difficult, then this response is for you too. Tackling these one at a time…

Papal infallibility: it may be helpful to read the conversation I have been having with dingodile on this subject in this very thread.

Marian dogmas:
-Immaculate Conception and sinlessness: Luke 1:28.
Mary is “full of grace” and “the Lord is with you”. Not partially graced, but fully graced. If you were full of grace, would you a) ever be in sin or b) ever have any desire to go against the will of God? It is only fitting that our Lord be conceived, developed, and born from the purest of wombs.

-Perpetual Virginity: Luke 1:34.
Mary’s questioning of the angel of how she might conceive would be preposterous had she not been and intending to remain a virgin. Anyone who is engaged knows exactly how one will be able to conceive in the near future. And the fact that Jesus gives Mary to the apostle John (John 19:26-27) indicates that there were no other siblings to entrust the care of His mother to.

-Assumption into Heaven, Queen of Heaven, Mother of the Faithful: Revelation 12
Who is the woman who gave birth to the “male child, destined to rule all the nation with an iron rod” if not Mary? And who but a queen wears a crown? And she is there is bodily form (stars under her feet), and the rest of her offspring are “those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus” (v. 17). Bear in mind Revelation was written by John, the same John who Jesus gave Mary to.

Marian Apparitions: Because if “every fact may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses” according to Jesus (Mt 18:16), how much more 70,000+ witnesses in the 20th century (Our Lady of Fatima) ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/October.htm

"Dogmas About Relics": Matthew 9:20-22, Acts 5:15-16, Acts 19:11-12
Physical objects can be a means of grace.

Purgatory: Matthew 12:32 (implies that there are sins that can be forgiven “in the age to come”), Luke 17:19-31 (Jesus hadn’t risen, so Abraham and Lazarus are not in heaven, and the rich man is clearly in hell), 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (salvation only after purification), 2 Maccabees 12:38-46 (unfortunately, the book was removed from the Bible by Luther, largely on account of this passage), 1 Peter 3:19-20 (“the spirits in prison”: not hell, for what good would preaching to damned souls do; not heaven, because heaven isn’t prison), Revelation 21:27 (nothing unclean enters heaven, period. Whether it be instantaneous or a drawn-out process, there is a step that purifies someone’s imperfections between death and entry into heaven).

The Celibate Priesthood: Jesus was celibate, and the priest acts in persona Christi, the person of Christ. They also model the call of St. Paul (also celibate): 1 Corinthians 7:25-38, see especially the end of v. 38.

Indulgences: 1 Peter 4:8, James 5:20, and 2 Corinthians 2:5-11 in reference to 1 Corinthians 5:3-5.

Hope that helps. Any questions?
 
David89;8502205:
Again Romans 9:15-18 vs Matthew 5:7 for one.
the link I provided in an earlier reply should answer your second question. Im glad you brought up the Commandments. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”
Let me ask you this instead…why don’t you go through word for word at the Catechism of the Catholic Church…and find any section there that says Catholics are to worship graven images?

ICONS AND OUR FAITH IN GOD
To answer these questions, let us review for a moment what we believe about God Himself. The venerable eighth century theologian, Saint John of Damascus-a champion for the cause of icons and for Orthodox Christianity-summarizes very well what true Christians in his day believed about God. See if you don’t agree. “I believe in one God, the source of all things, without beginning, uncreated, immortal and unassailable, eternal, everlasting, incomprehensible, bodiless, invisible, uncircumscribed, without form. I believe in one superessential Being, one Godhead greater than our conception of divinity, in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and I adore Him alone. I worship one God, one Godhead, but I adore three persons: God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and I adore Him alone” (On the Divine Images, page 15). Nothing could be more sound, more biblical, more Christian, more Orthodox. But given our understanding of the Godhead, if God is invisible, as Saint John writes, how can we possibly depict God? Listen once again to Saint John of Damascus: “It is obvious that when you contemplate God becoming man, then you may depict Him clothed in human form. When the invisible One becomes visible to flesh, you may then draw His likeness. When He who is bodiless and without form, immeasurable in the boundlessness of His own nature, existing in the form of God, empties Himself and takes the form of a servant in substance and in stature and is found in a body of flesh, then you may draw His image and show it to anyone willing to gaze upon it” (On the Divine Images, page 18). The old Chinese adage “A picture is worth a thousand words” comes to mind. If we use word-pictures to illustrate our sermons, what about graphic pictures to illustrate the gospel of Christ itself? This is Saint John’s plea: “Depict His wonderful condescension, His birth from the Virgin, His baptism in the Jordan, His transfiguration on Tabor, His sufferings which have freed us from passion, His death, His miracles which are signs of His divine nature, since through divine power He worked them in the flesh. Show His saving cross, the tomb, the resurrection, the ascension into the heavens. Use every kind of drawing, word, or color” (On the Divine Images, page 18). Absolutely! Right on target! It is incredibly important that we Christians be allowed the latitude to depict Christ’s humanity and work, because by His incarnation He revealed Himself in and through material creation. And material creation thus sanctified must be allowed to reveal Him.

protomartyr.org/image.html
 
CopticChristian;8502173:
You still haven’t addressed as to why Catholics still bow and worship to statues of Mary in the 20th century as my link clearly shows. As for the link you’ve provided:shrug:, it proves nothing.
In your opinion it proves nothing. You refuse to acknowledge that the Catholic Church does not teach Mary worship. I do not worship Mary. I have no idea what your Protestant mind wants to prove to you that Catholics do not worship Mary.
 
David89;8502205:
Again Romans 9:15-18 vs Matthew 5:7 for one.
the link I provided in an earlier reply should answer your second question. Im glad you brought up the Commandments. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
So you are comparing what Paul is telling the Judaizing Christians why God does what he does to Jesus/Jesus/Jesus/Jesus/Jesus/Jesus…telling the people how they should treat each other.

Where did your Protestant mind get taught that this was contradictory? Paul is talking about God. Jesus/Jesus/Jesus/Jesus is talking about Creatures.

I know something you don’t know. If you continue in your ignorant, impudent, uneducated, Messianic/Protestant, and tragically Messianic/Protestants give Protestant thought a bad name…anyway if you continue, you will find under your name…
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                                                                                                       **   מוחרם **
 
because there is no sense of community or fellowship where I attended mass. (previously)
 
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