I'm not a Catholic because

[joe370]

atheistgirl;8562449]Well of course humans didnt create the universe.

In the sense that it was created, (came to be) we will eventually be able to understand the mechanism of that process, describe and explain it and who knows, maybe even one day recreate it

Humans recreating the creation of the universe? Now that is faith Sarah…LOL… Just joking around…

No one knows - there are hypothesis, but no solid theories as to the cause yet. Correction, Hawkings believes he does know, and his theories may well be proven right by CERN in the next decade or two.

What is his theory on the cause of the universe?

No logically speaking things only appear fine tuned for our benefit. If one stops assuming all this was done for the benefit of man, and remove man from the centre of it all, one sees much more clearly what a wonderful awe inspiring universe we live in and just how lucky we are to have had evolved to be a part of it.

So the fine tuning of the universe is simply a product of evolution as well? Forgive me if I have misinterpreted…

And another thought I have about this fine tuning! The way I look at it is if something was designed for life, then there is redundancy built into the system to protect that life. But we dont see that

Like God for example…

if the atmosphere is damaged beyond repair, thats it - whoosh! If a huge asteroid hits us, and it could we have just been lucky its just little ones so far, then whoosh! We actually KNOW now the sun will burn out, destroying the earth anyhow, just not for billions of years - little microscopic bacteria can wipe us all out - reference black death etc - so no, I dont see ‘‘fine tuning’’ as some kind of evidence to support design - I see just how precarious the balance of our existance is!!!

I do not see how an asteroid hitting us, or the sun burning out in a billion years or little microscopic bacteria destroying the human race undermines, in any way, the notion that the fine tuning of the universe supports design.

For me personally, its a wonderful happy accident.

Sarah x

Hey, if that works for you then I really am happy for you. I too felt the same way long ago…

A wonderful happy accident with no designer or cause, even though, logically speaking, every thing designed necessitates a designer and every cause has its effect and every effect has its cause?

 

[atheistgirl]

This argument says, “since evolution, an unconscious and unintelligible process, shows a directed goal, a final cause, of regularities where x (evolution, natural selection) is the efficient cause of y (complex life) and y is always the final cause of x and never anything else, an intelligent designer must exist.”

But if you went back in time, lets say to the stage before homo habilis emerged, you could not look at any template and predict that homo sapiens would be the end result.

When you look at all the branches of homo that emerged, and died off, you can see anything far from a directed goal. Thats what lead in 1989, Steven J Gould to write: “Wind back the tape of life to the early days of the Burgess Shale; let it play again from an identical starting point, and the chance becomes vanishingly small that anything like human intelligence would grace the replay.” (I coulnt think of his name earlier!).

Im uncomfortably aware that this is an emotive subject, and my view could be offensive to some here, and as I am a guest on this catholic forum, I think perhaps it’s best we just leave it at that. Continuing will require me to type out more and more references for my position, which could be seen by some as an affront and an attempt by me to undermine them and their beliefs.

Nothing would be further from the truth, but you know how it goes sometimes on the internet!!!

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

I will not go into all of the flaws in the evolutional theory; the frauds such as Pitdown Man, exposed in 1953 as a forgery, which consisted of the lower jawbone of an orangutan that had been deliberately combined with the skull of a fully developed modern human, or the famous moth shown in all of our science books which had purportedly changed its color due to coal dust, also found to be a fraud. To this day, no evidence has been brought forward to suggest any linkage between species (monkey to man); only theories.

The beauty of science is yes it can be fooled, but it does not take it lying down and it is the scientific method that exposes these frauds, and makes appropriate corrections. Everything in science is a ‘‘theory’’ because in order for something to be scrutinised by the scientific method, it must be able to be disproved. Thats why, we talk about the ‘‘theory’’ of gravity but who seriously does not take gravitiy as a fact. We take about germ ‘‘theory’’ but who seriously calls into quesiton modern medicines constructs on something that is only a theory!!! And we have the theory of evolution - perfectly disprovable, thats why its called the theory of evolution, but in 200 years, everything still points to it being correct.

People talk about evolution as if nothing has happened since Darwins time. DNA was not known back then, and yet the DNA record completely confirms the branches of the evolutionary tree. It didnt have to, and it could have disproved evolution, but in fact it perfectly marries up with the other records.

I am sorry, but your comments are the height of arrogance.

My view is it is the height of arrogance to assume we are the centre of the universe and that all this is just for us. But we are coming to this from very different perspectives so perhaps we had better just leave it there.

When you have accomplished this let me know and then I’ll take you seriously.

I mentioned in a previous post these discussion can get very emotive, so rather than engaging in any back and forth and sharing what I think of comments like that, I think it’s best I now withdraw from this thread.

Sarah x

 

[dingodile]

Before you withdraw, I’d be curious to read your response to my comments in post #367.

I think the point about “supernatural” has priority over the evolution debate, since plenty of those who believe in the supernatural also believe in evolution.

 

[atheistgirl]

I do not see how an asteroid hitting us, or the sun burning out in a billion years or little microscopic bacteria destroying the human race undermines, in any way, the notion that the fine tuning of the universe supports design.

Well, lets say I design a nursery for my new born. Lets say I win an award for that design, and my company goes on to install the nursery in peoples homes right across the USA. Everyone is talking about the perfectly designed nursery, set up to support and meet every single need of the new born child.

And then it becomes apparent there are rats in the nursery. And a croc, and the wall lining is covered in fleas carrying the black death, and the temperature regulators make the room one minute below zero, and take it to boiling point the next, with little or no warning.

The nursery might appear to have been designed for life, but it’s anything but! The fact kids survive against all the odds has nothing what so every to do with any so called design, and more to do with their ability to adapt to what the nursery slings at them and an aweful lot of luck!

You said the built in redundancy was God. I fully respect that.

But what happens when tsunamis hit, killing hundreds of thousands, earthquakes kill off whole civilizations, floods destroy the homes and lives of hundreds of thousands, millions go to bed hungry and die of hunger because the ground cannot support them where they live. This is not a good design in my view where human life can be extinguished in a flash.

Dont misunderstand what I just said above. I dont blame any god for any of this. I blame our management system. But its hard to argue, in my view, that the system of things is ordered for our benefit. I think we survive almost agaisnt the odds.

 

[CopticChristian]

Well, lets say I design a nursery for my new born. Lets say I win an award for that design, and my company goes on to install the nursery in peoples homes right across the USA. Everyone is talking about the perfectly designed nursery, set up to support and meet every single need of the new born child.

And then it becomes apparent there are rats in the nursery. And a croc, and the wall lining is covered in fleas carrying the black death, and the temperature regulators make the room one minute below zero, and take it to boiling point the next, with little or no warning.

The nursery might appear to have been designed for life, but it’s anything but! The fact kids survive against all the odds has nothing what so every to do with any so called design, and more to do with their ability to adapt to what the nursery slings at them and an aweful lot of luck!

You said the built in redundancy was God. I fully respect that.

But what happens when tsunamis hit, killing hundreds of thousands, earthquakes kill off whole civilizations, floods destroy the homes and lives of hundreds of thousands, millions go to bed hungry and die of hunger because the ground cannot support them where they live. This is not a good design in my view where human life can be extinguished in a flash.

Dont misunderstand what I just said above. I dont blame any god for any of this. I blame our management system. But its hard to argue, in my view, that the system of things is ordered for our benefit. I think we survive almost agaisnt the odds.

I visited Manila many times. They have a place called smokey mountain. About 30,000 families live in the dump in the city of Manila.

papermade.org/

The places they live in are small and privacy is minimal. They have no computers that I know of. They survive and they procreate. They have made an industry of the dump. The Plastics are gathered by one group. The metals are gathered by another. Glass is gathered by another group. When you visit there and leave you have to shower and wash your clothes because the stench in the air is so thick and people live there and breathe this stuff…

The dump was not designed for life and yet out of the squallor comes life. How can this be? What is it about human nature that causes this. What is it about human nature that we so far away can spend our time on these computers posting, in our shelters, relatively safe and not filled with the odor of dung. The Nursery you speak of exists in Manilla and the children are born there in Manilla and I will tell you that every soul old and young I saw there had a smile on their face and welcomed me.

I ask you to rethink your nursery. This nursery exists with real people and they survive.

 

[Miriam1947]

Well, lets say I design a nursery for my new born. Lets say I win an award for that design, and my company goes on to install the nursery in peoples homes right across the USA. Everyone is talking about the perfectly designed nursery, set up to support and meet every single need of the new born child.

And then it becomes apparent there are rats in the nursery. And a croc, and the wall lining is covered in fleas carrying the black death, and the temperature regulators make the room one minute below zero, and take it to boiling point the next, with little or no warning.

The nursery might appear to have been designed for life, but it’s anything but! The fact kids survive against all the odds has nothing what so every to do with any so called design, and more to do with their ability to adapt to what the nursery slings at them and an aweful lot of luck!

You said the built in redundancy was God. I fully respect that.

But what happens when tsunamis hit, killing hundreds of thousands, earthquakes kill off whole civilizations, floods destroy the homes and lives of hundreds of thousands, millions go to bed hungry and die of hunger because the ground cannot support them where they live. This is not a good design in my view where human life can be extinguished in a flash.

Dont misunderstand what I just said above. I dont blame any god for any of this. I blame our management system. But its hard to argue, in my view, that the system of things is ordered for our benefit.** I think we survive almost agaisnt the odds.**

See, it’s a miracle!

Seriously, when disaster strikes and kills hundreds or thousands or more, it can seem like how can there possibly be a God?

If you believe (and I do) that even though all of those people died, they truly are in a better place. Where is it that hundreds and thousands die because of natural disasters? Isn’t it in either poor countries where they can’t afford strong buildings or great hospitals or is it in poor countries that have lots of money being donated for the poor but the governments are so corrupt that only the rich get what is actually being given for the poor.

And may they rot in hell.

 

[CopticChristian]

See, it’s a miracle!

Seriously, when disaster strikes and kills hundreds or thousands or more, it can seem like how can there possibly be a God?

If you believe (and I do) that even though all of those people died, they truly are in a better place. Where is it that hundreds and thousands die because of natural disasters? Isn’t it in either poor countries where they can’t afford strong buildings or great hospitals or is it in poor countries that have lots of money being donated for the poor but the governments are so corrupt that only the rich get what is actually being given for the poor.

**And may they rot in hell./**QUOTE]

Would you consider that this is harsh and perhaps stated in a more charitable way so as to profess what it is we believe and stand for, not to judge and condemn anyone although I understand your sentiment.

 

[atheistgirl]

Before you withdraw, I’d be curious to read your response to my comments in post #367.

I think the point about “supernatural” has priority over the evolution debate, since plenty of those who believe in the supernatural also believe in evolution.

Hi

Im sorry I seem to have missed that response but Ive read it now. Ok, last word from me in this thread as its best we dont get heated

It is my personal position that extra ordinary claims need extra ordinary evidence. That makes sense to me. If I said to you, I saw a woman on the street today, with a coat that had three sleves - well, that would be odd, but certainly not unbelievable, because we know coats exist, we know sleves exist, we know coats have selves, and we’ve seen funny sweaters with three sleves. So, it’s perfectly possible I did see that sight, and you might be perpared to repeat the story just based on my word. If I snapped a pic on my phone, so much the better.

If I said I saw a woman on the street today, who appeared to glow a heavenly white glow, saw angels and cherubs around her head, the skies opened, I heard a voice booming from the clounds, and I watched the woman ascend into heaven. Well, that would indeed be outside of the ordinary experience, and would, justly, require extrodinary evidence for people to believe it.

Miracles - as you said, of all the churches, I do give the catholic church much credit for being thorough and less prone to drama than a lot of churches, especially in the area of miracles.

But my position is just because we cannot NOW explain something, the natural next step is to invoke some supernatural power. It doesnt work like that for me. Im perfectly happy to say ‘I dont know’’ or ‘‘we dont know’’. That way we can look for causes, and explanations.

By saying God did it, or its a miracle, that pretty much shuts down any further investigation into possible causes and advancement of our knowledge. So no, my default position is, we dont know, when its the case that we dont know.

That by itself does not preclude some supernatural explanation, but to make that claim as the cause, does require one to produce extrodinary evidence. I would have no problem with such evidence forth coming, but it never does, its simply a case of saying we cant explain it, it shouldnt have happened, so it must be a miracle.

Saying something shouldnt have happened but did, or saying something cant be explained, for me, doesnt automaically lead to saying well then it must be a miracle.

And on that note, while we are all still friends, I bid you all a good day

Sarah x

 

[Miriam1947]

Miriam1947;8565399:

See, it’s a miracle!

Seriously, when disaster strikes and kills hundreds or thousands or more, it can seem like how can there possibly be a God?

If you believe (and I do) that even though all of those people died, they truly are in a better place. Where is it that hundreds and thousands die because of natural disasters? Isn’t it in either poor countries where they can’t afford strong buildings or great hospitals or is it in poor countries that have lots of money being donated for the poor but the governments are so corrupt that only the rich get what is actually being given for the poor.

And may they rot in hell./

QUOTE]

Would you consider that this is harsh and perhaps stated in a more charitable way so as to profess what it is we believe and stand for, not to judge and condemn anyone although I understand your sentiment.

I have no feelings of charity to people who take advantage of others. Do I pray for them? Sure. But God is who will judge them and I would not want to be in their shoes.

 

[joe370]

atheistgirl;8565367]Well, lets say I design a nursery for my new born. Lets say I win an award for that design, and my company goes on to install the nursery in peoples homes right across the USA. Everyone is talking about the perfectly designed nursery, set up to support and meet every single need of the new born child.

And then it becomes apparent there are rats in the nursery. And a croc, and the wall lining is covered in fleas carrying the black death, and the temperature regulators make the room one minute below zero, and take it to boiling point the next, with little or no warning.

I’d say that it was high time to move out.

The nursery might appear to have been designed for life, but it’s anything but! The fact kids survive against all the odds has nothing what so every to do with any so called design, and more to do with their ability to adapt to what the nursery slings at them and an aweful lot of luck!

But it was still designed by someone - right? It didn’t just miraculously appear on it’s own, which is something suggested by some folks, regarding the universe, minus the miracle of course.

You said the built in redundancy was God. I fully respect that.

But what happens when tsunamis hit, killing hundreds of thousands, earthquakes kill off whole civilizations, floods destroy the homes and lives of hundreds of thousands, millions go to bed hungry and die of hunger because the ground cannot support them where they live. This is not a good design in my view where human life can be extinguished in a flash.

I totally agree that this world, full of all of its shortcomings, was not made to last forever. We exist in a sort of fallen state:

“For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.”

I eventually came to accept the idea that God’s “invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.” But that’s just me.

Dont misunderstand what I just said above. I dont blame any god for any of this. I blame our management system. But its hard to argue, in my view, that the system of things is ordered for our benefit. I think we survive almost agaisnt the odds.

I didn’t think that you were suggesting that God is to blame, because you don’t believe in God, unless I missed something? Forgive me if I misspoke.

Against all odds seems about right. Scientists believe that the survival of the universe relies on certain fundamental physical constants which lie within a very narrow range, and if any of those fundamental constants were only slightly altered, the universe would be “unlikely to be conducive to the establishment and development of matter, astronomical structures, elemental diversity, or life as it is presently understood.”

 

[dingodile]

You have replied to part of what I wrote. Thanks for that. I think the other part–the part before the remarks about miracles–is also worth thinking about, when you have the chance and the inclination.

As for the “extraordinary evidence” thing, unless you’re using that as code for “no conceivable evidence”, then the whole point is that in some cases, if you’re willing to look at particulars rather than resort to blanket dismissals, the evidence is indeed extraordinary.

To claim that something is a miracle is a defeasible claim. It isn’t immune to revision. Science is all about defeasible claims, after all. To call something a miracle is not simply to say we don’t understand it, because there are many things we don’t understand that nobody calls miracles.

If your rejection of the supernatural is an a priori presupposition, then that’s fine and nobody can argue with that. But if you claim that it’s based on “absence of evidence” and at the same time reject a priori the very possibility of evidence, then something is awry!

 

[joe370]

dingodile

…because there are many things we don’t understand that nobody calls miracles.

Like, for example, how gravity works…

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

But if you went back in time, lets say to the stage before homo habilis emerged, you could not look at any template and predict that homo sapiens would be the end result.

The argument is not saying the height of the human genus is the final cause of evolution, it’s simply observing common regularities in nature which are unconscious potential processes. This goes deeper into Thomist philosophy where we would establish potential things cannot actualize without an external force, and why the five ways must be seen as a whole and never lifted out of context. You can rewind the clock all you want, the argument still applies that evolution shows a regularity where the final cause of the process is more complex life and never anything else. Ugh, this is the result of the “enlightenment era” of Newtonian mechanicalism and the revolt of Aristotelian - Thomistic philosophy. Anything that has to do with efficient and final causes is instantly attacked on sight because they always lead to questions that are beyond scientific observation.

Im uncomfortably aware that this is an emotive subject, and my view could be offensive to some here, and as I am a guest on this catholic forum, I think perhaps it’s best we just leave it at that. Continuing will require me to type out more and more references for my position, which could be seen by some as an affront and an attempt by me to undermine them and their beliefs.

Nothing would be further from the truth, but you know how it goes sometimes on the internet!!!

Sarah x

I understand, this is getting off topic anyways.

 

[Angels_Eyes]

Why are you not a Catholic?

I was a Catholic Revert…fairly recently. And have decided it is not for me…completely. I just cannot accept all of the belief systems in place, and still struggle with the Devil/hell and other things too. When I ‘felt’ I had returned to the Church again, I also starting changing as a person. I actually started become ‘more’ judgemental, among other things and I just did not like the person I was becoming. (This was only me…I do not mean this to offend anyone out there.)

I was a Pagan, then a Spiritualist for over 10 years. I have been drawn back to this Spirituality in recent weeks, and feel a lot more relaxed and happy again.

I have started my Yoga again, burning my incense again, drumming, and doing the things I use to love. I am not going to say goodbye to all of my Catholic knowledge, quite the opposite really. I plan to use it and other aspects of many traditions and religions and just be “me”…an open minded, accepting person, who is a ‘spiritual being’.

Nothing wrong with that I think.

 

[Kouyate42]

Like, for example, how gravity works…

We may not know this now, but this is not to say that in the future, we won’t know. The dangerous trap you’re at risk of falling into is a ‘God of the Gaps’.

 

[SteveVH]

The beauty of science is yes it can be fooled, but it does not take it lying down and it is the scientific method that exposes these frauds, and makes appropriate corrections. Everything in science is a ‘‘theory’’ because in order for something to be scrutinised by the scientific method, it must be able to be disproved. Thats why, we talk about the ‘‘theory’’ of gravity but who seriously does not take gravitiy as a fact. We take about germ ‘‘theory’’ but who seriously calls into quesiton modern medicines constructs on something that is only a theory!!! And we have the theory of evolution - perfectly disprovable, thats why its called the theory of evolution, but in 200 years, everything still points to it being correct.

People talk about evolution as if nothing has happened since Darwins time. DNA was not known back then, and yet the DNA record completely confirms the branches of the evolutionary tree. It didnt have to, and it could have disproved evolution, but in fact it perfectly marries up with the other records.

My view is it is the height of arrogance to assume we are the centre of the universe and that all this is just for us. But we are coming to this from very different perspectives so perhaps we had better just leave it there.

I mentioned in a previous post these discussion can get very emotive, so rather than engaging in any back and forth and sharing what I think of comments like that, I think it’s best I now withdraw from this thread.

Sarah x

Sarah, the last thing I want you to do is withdraw from this thread. When you speak of an amatuer, and a sloppy one at that, creating the human body, you are speaking of my God and so I take a little personally. I am sorry I have offended you and agree that the tone of my comments was less than charitable. Please accept my apology.

 

[CopticChristian]

Sarah, the last thing I want you to do is withdraw from this thread. When you speak of an amatuer, and a sloppy one at that, creating the human body, you are speaking of my God and so I take a little personally. I am sorry I have offended you and agree that the tone of my comments was less than charitable. Please accept my apology.

I am not trying to correct you. I am suggesting that as Christians if we lead by example then we should do what it is we expect others to do. I admire your apology. Would you consider asking for forgiveness?

 

[joe370]

We may not know this now, but this is not to say that in the future, we won’t know. The dangerous trap you’re at risk of falling into is a ‘God of the Gaps’.

Maybe, or, we may never know. One thing the future will never provide, in my estimation, is the answer to who created the universe, at least until the creator decides to reveal the creator…

 

[Kouyate42]

Maybe, or, we may never know. One thing the future will never provide, in my estimation, is the answer to who created the universe, at least until the creator decides to reveal the creator…

There is a limit to human understanding, this is true. Maybe the true origins of the universe will remain a mystery, along with WHY it was created.