I'm not a Catholic because

[JRKH]

Krahnicles…A most interesting post below. I know it’s a couple of weeks old but I’d like to address at least some of the points made in it - particularly as they relate to the conversation we were having on your thread about showing contempt.

There is a reason I ask that way. I support unity, but at the same time, I accept the reality that some of us are non-Catholic while others are Catholic. But…we should still try to be unified.The general vibe I get from Catholicism is that you guys are in favor of unity, insofar as you’re able to convert all non-Catholics to Catholicism. You see ecumenism without conversion as relatively healthy when compared to fighting, but you don’t really see it as unity. Thus, you favor unity, but not as a goal in and of itself. What you really favor is the universal reign of your Catholic monarch, and unity is used as the pretext for that.

Let me address the term “Catholic Monarch” first. Such a term could easily be seen as “contemptuous” and I know you are intelligent enough to know that the Monarch of the Catholic Church is the same as your monarch. He is Christ the King. No Catholic would refer to the Pope as “Monarch” as this would be blasphemy. At most he would be referred to as a “prince of the Church”…But not Monarch.

Now, to address the issue of unity. You say that you support unity but how do you define that unity and is your definition biblical? This is an important point. What sort of unity did Jesus Himself call for - What was recorded in Holy Scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
Here are some examples:
John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Rom 15:5-6
5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Cor 13:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Php 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

1 Pet 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

Add to these the examples of Paul meeting with Peter and others, laying out his teaching to be sure he they were all on the same page.
Add to these the Council in Acts in which a doctrinal issue that threatened to split the Church was debated and resolved.

Now to me, these calls for unity (to be one) fit much more closely with the idea of a single, universal authoritative Church than they do with a loose confederation of churches whose doctrines vary and even contradict one another.
The Holy Spirit cannot validly teach one truth to one group and an opposing truth to another group. I makes no sense.

You make the accusation above that we want to convert others to Catholicism. This is a point I will most happily concede. We DO want to convert others to Catholicism. The question is Why…Is it because, as you say in your post that we want to bring everyone under our “Catholic monarch”?
In Truth it is not.
Rather, the reason is that we wish to share with our brothers and sisters in Christ the immense riches that exist within Christ’s Catholic Church.
I have heard many former protestants speak of their conversion and - almost all of them say that they did not have to leave anything behind in their conversion. That coming into the Church provided them with greater freedom, not less. That they were richer, not poorer.
So what we are offering (as we see it) is a gift, not a chain. You are free to accept it or reject it as you will.
What we cannot be, and what others should not expect us to be, is something that we are not - expressing a false ecumenism that waters down the many treasures we have in God’s Catholic Church.

In closing - I offer a blog that I wrote a while back on, "Visible, Doctrinal, Authoritative Unity, in response to a conversation I was having with someone on another web-site. If you are interested in taking a look, it is HERE.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Quote:
No, Peter was not the only one to possess the keys to the kingdom, which are clearly not the same thing as the Key to the House of David. Additionally, these were keys with a purpose. Jesus shared them with all His disciples, and when they went to all the nations making disciples, they were meant to share them with their disciples as Jesus did with them.

What part of Mt 18 are you referring to?? I find nothing in Mt 18 that refers to keys or sharing keys.

The only connection I can see is in Mt 18:15-18 where Jesus uses the “binding and loosing” statement as He does in Mt 16. But no keys.

Also here, the binding and loosing is a function of the “Church”, the ekklesia - called together for the purpose of deliberating and taking council on the matter to be addressed. It is not an authority given to each individual disciple to be acted upon independently or outside of the communion of the universal ekklesia.

We see this acted upon in the case of the Judaizers vs the Gentile converts where the matter had to be taken to a council and recorded in Acts 15.

I see no support for the logical leap you are making here by trying to tie the keys from Mt 16 into Mt 18.

Peace
James

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by atheistgirl
I accept totally that those of a religious persuasion will see evidence of design and take that into their philosophical arguements.

But there is no evolutionary biologist sees or argues that within evolution they can see evidence of design.

In fact, the complete opposite is the case.

And you only have to look at the flaws with the human eye, ear, appendix, or even the pathways in the brain, to show clearly, that, despite such complex and wonderful organs, they are the eiptome of sloppiness in their design, and if they were designed, it would have to have been by a complete and total amateur.

, intellect [not IQ] and freewill? attached to our souls [that which is the very source of life?] And just what would ya’ll do to improve God’s “shoddy” design of sight and hearing? After all: even with God’s poor performance YOU are still able to rationalize *. Just imagine if God had gotten ot right:dancing:

It’s such a joy and honor to beable to discuss these things with folks who know more and know better than God:shrug:

God loves you anyway, and so do we

Pat*

 

[PJM]

=Angels Eyes;8566301]I was a Catholic Revert…fairly recently. And have decided it is not for me…completely. I just cannot accept all of the belief systems in place, and still struggle with the Devil/hell and other things too. When I ‘felt’ I had returned to the Church again, I also starting changing as a person. I actually started become ‘more’ judgemental, among other things and I just did not like the person I was becoming. (This was only me…I do not mean this to offend anyone out there.)

I have started my Yoga again, burning my incense again, drumming, and doing the things I use to love. I am not going to say goodbye to all of my Catholic knowledge, quite the opposite really. I plan to use it and other aspects of many traditions and religions and just be “me”…an open minded, accepting person, who is a ‘spiritual being’.

Nothing wrong with that I think.

God allows us to make the God wrong choices BUT NEVER has God permiited ANYONE to created there own man-made religion or faith beliefs. NEVER!

Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are explained very simply in understanding that God can be accurately described as*** “All Good Things PERFECTED.”***

From this base we ask: Are Fairness and Justice “good things” 99 out 100 will admit they are [and the one who does not is simply wrong.]

Then logically one must conclude that God [in an absolute sense] MUST BE both fair and just.

Heaven is the Just and Fair reward of those who do good, obey God and die in the state of grace. Hell is the Just and Fair reward for those WHO FREELY CHOOSE NOT TO.

“The Church” commonly gets blaimed for God’s laws and decisions. Decisions that do not even have a logical alternative, bevcause it is WE WHO DECIDE, God only affirms our lifes decisions.

Now permit me PLEASE to explain what happened to you. Satan is REAL; Powerfull and ever present. When you made the right choice and returned back to God; you in effect told satan to go back to [well you know where]. Satan then redouibles his efforts to win you back [and he has].

Satan can cause us to think improperly, BUT can only succeed when we agree to his nonsence. All thought is eiter from Satan or from God.

**Jer.42: 6 **“Whether it is good or evil, we will obey the voice of the LORD our God to whom we are sending you, that it may be well with us when we obey the voice of the LORD our God.”

**2Cor.5: 10 **“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.”

Deut.30: 19 “I [GOD] call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live,”

***You would wo WELL dear fried to recosider your influenced choice

---

**1Pet.4: 13 **” But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

**1Pet.5: 1, 9 ** “So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world.”

Phil.1: 29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “

2Thes.1: 5 “This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering “

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering."

May God Bless you and OFFER you sufficient garce to accept and know His singular truths:thumbsup:

Pat

 

[PJM]

My reply to PAOST 395

Quote: by
atheistgirl
No one knows - there are hypothesis, but no solid theories as to the cause yet. Correction, Hawkings believes he does know, and his theories may well be proven right by CERN in the next decade or two.

The reply from Joe370

What is his theory on the cause of the universe?

Allow me to take this just a bit further; because it is SUCH A GREAT understanding.

What is the theory behind Earth the ONLY planet that can be PROVEN to be able to support life forms as we know them and what is the theory of WHY humanity? After all are we not ‘destroying the planet?”

God Bless,
Pat

 

[PJM]

=JRKH;8569840]What part of Mt 18 are you referring to?? I find nothing in Mt 18 that refers to keys or sharing keys.

The only connection I can see is in Mt 18:15-18 where Jesus uses the “binding and loosing” statement as He does in Mt 16. But no keys.

Also here, the binding and loosing is a function of the “Church”, the ekklesia - called together for the purpose of deliberating and taking council on the matter to be addressed. It is not an authority given to each individual disciple to be acted upon independently or outside of the communion of the universal ekklesia.

We see this acted upon in the case of the Judaizers vs the Gentile converts where the matter had to be taken to a council and recorded in Acts 15.

I see no support for the logical leap you are making here by trying to tie the keys from Mt 16 into Mt 18.

Peace
James

***Hi James

Here is the CONNECT your asking about***.

Matt.16:18 to 19

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, ***and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." ***

Matt. 18:18 “Truly, I [JESUS] say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” [Mt. 18: verse 1: At that time **the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

**Matt. 28:16 "**B]Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. [Thomas] And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

***And here is further evidence: This set of passages refer to:

The Sacrament of Confirmation
The Official foundation of the RCC
The sacrament of Pennace /Confession***

John 20:19-23 "John.20 Verses 19 to 23

"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, **“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “**Receive the Holy Spirit. If **you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Christ here COMPLETES and transfers His very OWN Power and Authority as God to Peter and the Apostles. Thatn begins in Matthew Matt.10: 11 “And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.”

It is our prayer that this both clarifies and confirms what you are asking about?

God Bless you,

Pat

 

[Deborah123]

Technically I am, but have been converting to Judaism for 3 years and have about 6 months of study left to do.

My main reasons for no longer being Catholic are that I have soooooo many doubts about so many aspects of the New Testament.
Bit of an obvious answer I suppose.

Not knocking Catholicism though, it’s an admirable and enjoyable religion, but I would have been a hypocrite to carry on in it.

 

[PJM]

[QUOT\E=Deborah123;8570251]Technically I am, but have been converting to Judaism for 3 years and have about 6 months of study left to do.

My main reasons for no longer being Catholic are that I have soooooo many doubts about so many aspects of the New Testament.
Bit of an obvious answer I suppose.

Not knocking Catholicism though, it’s an admirable and enjoyable religion, but I would have been a hypocrite to carry on in it.

---

WOW the lack of ligic here is baffeling.

Your doubts about the Catholic church and CHRIST! are lodged in the Old testament =Jewish history, tradition and practice, and YET this is BEFORE Catholism and the New Testament:shrug:

So your heading foe the basis of your doubts

Christ became human, while remaing God in order to make void all of the OT imperfect covenants; in order to make and create the One ever lasting New and Perfect Covoenant in Christ own Blood.

NEVER EVER did God even once permit more than belief in One God [Trinie]; or more than One set of faith Beleifs [Jewish Before Christ] and Catholism now in the time of the perfected Covenant; or more than One Church: Catholism.

The One unforgivreable sin is denial of God: that friend is precisely what you contemplate.

I will pray that Satan does not win this one as seems evident.

God Bless you,
Pat***

 

[Roy5]

I’ve always been struck that just after Jesus appears to have given the keys to Peter - also in Matthew 16 - Christ says:to him: “Get hehind me, Satan! You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of man!”

 Not that enthusiastic a recommendation for the man whom the Church claims was the first Pope.

 **As for Deborah 123, **I sympathize with your difficulties with the New Testament. I have some of those, too. Like Jesus putting demons into pigs and sending them over a cliff. But I have far greater problems with the Old Testament - hundreds of problems.

 As two quick examples: how God commanded Joshua to murder all the civilians in Jeriicho once those walls came tumbling down, and how God told Saul to exterminate every remaining Amalekite. I would call those examples of genocide, and there are many other examples from the OT. Check out such scriptures as Ex. 21:17. Ex. 22:18, 20; II Kings 2:23-24, and many, many more - as in Lev. 20 and Deut. 22-23. Read those and compare with the Sermon on the Mount. Which do you agree with more?

  On the other hand, I find that most Jews I know well are either Reform or non-religious. My Reform rabbi friend calls himself 'selective' when it comes to the Torah. Orthodox Jews would view him as no Jew at all!

 

[Deborah123]

Thank you for your reply Pat, even though I disagree about the “Heading foe on the basis of doubts”. I didn’t leap into Judaism as some sort of protest!!!
Sorry if that’s how I came across.
D.

 

[Deborah123]

Hi Roy,
I am coverting to Reform by the way, I have Jewish friends with Catholic spouses!!
I know exactly what you mean re some of the “Old Testament” stuff too. There’s an awful lot of stoning going on in there and I agree with you that the Sermon on the Mount is indeed more preferable to that! But to be a good Catholic I would have had to have believed in Jesus bodily resurrection, and it would be wrong to insult the Church by claiming to follow it when I can’t accept such a major teaching.
Hope that makes sense?

 

[PJM]

=dingodile;8565459]You have replied to part of what I wrote. Thanks for that. I think the other part–the part before the remarks about miracles–is also worth thinking about, when you have the chance and the inclination.

As for the “extraordinary evidence” thing, unless you’re using that as code for “no conceivable evidence”, then the whole point is that in some cases, if you’re willing to look at particulars rather than resort to blanket dismissals, the evidence is indeed extraordinary.

To claim that something is a miracle is a defeasible claim. It isn’t immune to revision. Science is all about defeasible claims, after all. To call something a miracle is not simply to say we don’t understand it, because there are many things we don’t understand that nobody calls miracles.

If your rejection of the supernatural is an a priori presupposition, then that’s fine and nobody can argue with that. But if you claim that it’s based on “absence of evidence” and at the same time reject a priori the very possibility of evidence, then something is awry!

IN SUPPORT OF YOUR GREAT INSIGHT,I ADD,

THERE CAN BE NO MORE INCREDIBLE EVIDENCE OF GOD THAN HUMANITY. Humanity alone is why there is a universe; and why we; HUMANITY ALONE can choose freely to know = love God; or deny = HATE God.

Therein is the evidence of Extrodinary Creation and unphathomable love.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Miriam1947]

I’ve always been struck that just after Jesus appears to have given the keys to Peter - also in Matthew 16 - Christ says:to him: “Get hehind me, Satan! You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of man!”

 Not that enthusiastic a recommendation for the man whom the Church claims was the first Pope.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 16:20-25
[/BIBLEDRB]

This was not because Jesus rescinded Peter’s mission but because Peter did not want Jesus to die. He was reacting as a human being.

 

[PJM]

=Roy5;8570502]I’ve always been struck that just after Jesus appears to have given the keys to Peter - also in Matthew 16 - Christ says:to him: “Get hehind me, Satan! You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of man!”

 Not that enthusiastic a recommendation for the man whom the Church claims was the first Pope.

 **As for Deborah 123, **I sympathize with your difficulties with the New Testament. I have some of those, too. Like Jesus putting demons into pigs and sending them over a cliff. But I have far greater problems with the Old Testament - hundreds of problems.

 As two quick examples: how God commanded Joshua to murder all the civilians in Jeriicho once those walls came tumbling down, and how God told Saul to exterminate every remaining Amalekite. I would call those examples of genocide, and there are many other examples from the OT. Check out such scriptures as Ex. 21:17. Ex. 22:18, 20; II Kings 2:23-24, and many, many more - as in Lev. 20 and Deut. 22-23. Read those and compare with the Sermon on the Mount. Which do you agree with more?

  On the other hand, I find that most Jews I know well are either Reform or non-religious. My Reform rabbi friend calls himself 'selective' when it comes to the Torah. Orthodox Jews would view him as no Jew at all!

And God replies:

Isaiah 55: 8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

The FACT that Peter was a sinful man is no accicent. But also not a first.

Adam and Eve, Moses, Abraham, Jacob, King David, King Soloman, and MANY others. Prophests, Judges, kings, all of the Apsotles except John denied Christ at the Crucifixion; Siant Paul persecuted and killed the eary Christians before his conversion and John reminds us: **1st. John 1:8-10 **“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

So then WHY did Jesus; our PERFECT GOD, choose Peter?

**Ps.78: 34 **“When he slew them, they sought for him; they repented and sought God earnestly”.

Isa.1: 27 “Zion shall be redeemed by justice, and those in her who repent, by righteousness.”

**Jer.5: 3 **"O LORD, do not thy eyes look for truth? Thou hast smitten them, but they felt no anguish; thou hast consumed them, but they refused to take correction. They have made their faces harder than rock; they have refused to repent.

Matt.4: 17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Mark.6: 12 “So they went out and preached that men should repent.”

**Luke.3:3, 8 **“and he went into all the region about the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham”

**So WHY PETER?

Because of His leadership skills, because of his humily, because he DID REPENT AND CONVERT!**

**Matt.14: 28-29 **"And Peter answered him, "Lord, if it is you, bid me come to you on the water."He said, “Come.” So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus;"PETER WAS A MAN THEN OF IMPERFECT FAITH

Of humility: **Matt.15: 15 **"But Peter said to him, “Explain the parable to us.”

Of profound understanding: **Matt.16:16 "**Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68 Jesus ask if they [the Apostles would like to abandom Him too?} "**John.6: 68 AND Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life”

AND WHAT DID PETER MEAN WHEN CHRIST REBUKED HIM?

Peter was not denying the Christ he had just affirmed. He was responding in LOVE to Christ that He Christ ought not offer Hislelf up for death and suffering. THAT IS WHY CHRIST REBUKED HIM… Jesus was saying in effect: YOU PETER DO NOT YET UNDERSTAND… IF i were to do as you suffest, it would be satan not my father who is served.

**Matt.26: 75 “**And Peter remembered the saying of Jesus, “Before the cock crows, you will deny me three times.” And he went out and wept bitterly.” **Mark.14: 72 “**And immediately the cock crowed a second time. And Peter remembered how Jesus had said to him, “Before the cock crows twice, you will deny me three times.” And he broke down and wept.”

Christ choose Peter because he was imperfect in order to demonistrate that even Peter, a sinner, could be Perfected AND THUS SO CAN WE.

God Bless you all,
Pat

 

[dingodile]

I will pray that Satan does not win this one as seems evident.

I am frankly appalled that a conversion to Judaism is painted as a victory for Satan, but I suppose this is a good illustration of why are not Catholics.

Before he was Pope, Joseph Ratzinger wrote, “Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority, there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else, even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority.”

There’s moral conscience and there’s intellectual conscience.

For example, as a matter of both moral and intellectual conscience, I believe that there are genuine moral truths that can be discerned by any reflective person. I believe that the basic principles of morality are written in our minds and hearts. One of these principles is that our moral obligations begin at the point where our actions or inaction have a clear and understandable effect on the well-being of others. In fact, I believe that “love your neighbor” means just this, that the well-being of our neighbors is as important as our own, and we should see that and behave accordingly. A corollary of this is the principle that where no one’s well-being is at stake, we should not condemn. This is so clear to me that I cannot bring myself to deny it.

Yet the Catholic Church has many teachings, such as its teaching on artificial birth control, according to which actions that harm no one are condemned as sinful. We can argue forever about the interpretation of various passages in scripture, but to me the clearest evidence that the Church is not infallible is the fact that it teaches what is false! And as I see it, it is simply wrong to claim that ABC is a sinful practice. I don’t know if the Church teaches that when a sincere and prayerful person converts to Judaism it’s a victory for Satan, but if so, then that would be another example of what I mean.

I think that for many who have posted in this thread, the completion of the statement “I’m not a Catholic because…” is “…my conscience will not permit it.”

 

[Deborah123]

Hello dingodile
“My conscience will not permit it” is what I tried to say, thank you for putting it so succinctly. I think Pat took me the wrong way as the reply was a bit shouty to say the least. (I also accidentally put an angry face at the top. I must have hit the wrong key as I meant to put a smile and don’t know how to edit it.)
I have a lot respect for the Church and do not think I am right/they are wrong. I was taken aback by Pat’s response but as I don’t believe in Satan I will try not to worry. My friends who are Catholic (and that includes my grown up children) are pleased I have found the faith in which I feel at home.
D

 

[Angels_Eyes]

I agree with this statement.:yup:

I went back to the Church fairly recently, but could not accept everything it was teaching. Many things such as birth control, as you said. Also, I know too many beautiful people in this world and I struggled that these people will end up in hell. I do not and cannot agree with this. They have been put on this earth to share their gifts and make a difference in people’s lives (mine!). Just too much I couldn’t agree with 100%. I figured that I cannot call myself a Catholic if I don’t agree with it all.

My conscience did not permit it…some will post now and say, it was not my conscience but Satan, it’s not true. We do need to take responsibility for our lives at some point and be accountable for what we do here and now…not later…heaven/hell.

 

[Angels_Eyes]

God allows us to make the God wrong choices BUT NEVER has God permiited ANYONE to created there own man-made religion or faith beliefs. NEVER!

Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are explained very simply in understanding that God can be accurately described as*** “All Good Things PERFECTED.”***

From this base we ask: Are Fairness and Justice “good things” 99 out 100 will admit they are [and the one who does not is simply wrong.]

Then logically one must conclude that God [in an absolute sense] MUST BE both fair and just.

Heaven is the Just and Fair reward of those who do good, obey God and die in the state of grace. Hell is the Just and Fair reward for those WHO FREELY CHOOSE NOT TO.

“The Church” commonly gets blaimed for God’s laws and decisions. Decisions that do not even have a logical alternative, bevcause it is WE WHO DECIDE, God only affirms our lifes decisions.

Now permit me PLEASE to explain what happened to you. Satan is REAL; Powerfull and ever present. When you made the right choice and returned back to God; you in effect told satan to go back to [well you know where]. Satan then redouibles his efforts to win you back [and he has].

Satan can cause us to think improperly, BUT can only succeed when we agree to his nonsence. All thought is eiter from Satan or from God.

**Jer.42: 6 **“Whether it is good or evil, we will obey the voice of the LORD our God to whom we are sending you, that it may be well with us when we obey the voice of the LORD our God.”

**2Cor.5: 10 **“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.”

Deut.30: 19 “I [GOD] call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live,”

***You would wo WELL dear fried to recosider your influenced choice

---

**1Pet.4: 13 **” But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

**1Pet.5: 1, 9 ** “So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world.”

Phil.1: 29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “

2Thes.1: 5 “This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering “

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering."

May God Bless you and OFFER you sufficient garce to accept and know His singular truths:thumbsup:

Pat

Thank you for taking the time to reply Pat.
I hear your concerns I do. This is what I do love about Catholics and being part of this forum, everyone is very willing to help and assist others and give advice to the best of their ability. It is very much appreciated.

I really don’t think however, that I am in any danger, of Satan taking over my thoughts or anything else for that matter.

I do wish I could believe completely, without a doubt, but I just cannot. It is always in my mind the possibility that the Bible was written by man, not by God. Maybe it was planned this exact way so corrupt and dishonest authorities could take control of the people and try to form a new ‘religion’ that everyone is to believe in or quite frankly ‘go to hell’. (no rudeness intended) They wanted to rid the world of Pagans and those of ‘open thought’ so sort of makes sense.

If an open-minded person has an opinion, ‘some’ religious people will say they are being influenced by Satan. If a person wants to explore the beauty of other traditions, meditate in India, chant ‘OM’ or whatever it may be, it is the devils work? Really?

I am sorry, I have seen the light, but maybe not quite in the way others do. I feel refreshed now. Ready to live each day. I feel confident and full of life, happiness and excitement of what each day may bring me. How is this a bad thing? I was not feeling these things within the Church, I cannot really explain why, I just wasn’t. So, to me this indicated that it didn’t ‘gel with my soul’. Something was wrong. Of course it is not the wrong path for many, but for me, I do think it is.

I do think we all end up in the same place. The roads may vary slightly, but they meet in the end. That is all that matters I think. God loves us all, I believe.

Blessings.

 

[Contarini]

I went back to the Church fairly recently, but could not accept everything it was teaching. Many things such as birth control, as you said. Also, I know too many beautiful people in this world and I struggled that these people will end up in hell.

What made you think that you were supposed to believe this? I have been assured over and over by Catholics whose orthodoxy and knowledge of their Faith I trust that Catholicism does not teach that any specific person will end up in hell. Indeed, it appears to be a legitimate opinion held by some Catholics that one may hope that no one at all will go to hell. It is not orthodox to hold that as a matter of certainty no one will go to hell, of course.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I do wish I could believe completely, without a doubt, but I just cannot.

What made you think that it was supposed to?

It is always in my mind the possibility that the Bible was written by man, not by God.

It was definitely written by human beings. Of course it’s possible that these human beings were not inspired by the Holy Spirit. But it’s also possible that they were. Faith is a choice (enabled by God’s grace) to base one’s life on the latter possibility (not just with regard to Scripture but Divine Revelation generally) rather than the former.

It doesn’t mean that you are intellectually certain. In fact, St. Thomas Aquinas says that it is impossible to have demonstrative certainty of most of the revealed truths of the Faith (there are some things, like the existence of God, that he thought you could be certain of, but even then he recognized that not all people of good will would be able to have that certainty, and so faith was often necessary with regard to such truths as well).

Maybe it was planned this exact way

By whom? This seems a much more far-fetched supposition than the concept of divine revelation itself!

so corrupt and dishonest authorities could take control of the people and try to form a new ‘religion’ that everyone is to believe in or quite frankly ‘go to hell’. (no rudeness intended) They wanted to rid the world of Pagans and those of ‘open thought’ so sort of makes sense.

Not to me it doesn’t. Who are “they”? Why did they care so much if they knew it wasn’t true? Can you really read the writings of the Church Fathers and believe them to be people of such fundamental hypocrisy and cunning?

If an open-minded person has an opinion, ‘some’ religious people will say they are being influenced by Satan. If a person wants to explore the beauty of other traditions, meditate in India, chant ‘OM’ or whatever it may be, it is the devils work? Really?

You have not heard *me *saying this.

I am sorry, I have seen the light, but maybe not quite in the way others do. I feel refreshed now. Ready to live each day. I feel confident and full of life, happiness and excitement of what each day may bring me. How is this a bad thing? I was not feeling these things within the Church, I cannot really explain why, I just wasn’t. So, to me this indicated that it didn’t ‘gel with my soul’. Something was wrong. Of course it is not the wrong path for many, but for me, I do think it is.

Probably as you understand it it is. Indeed, I suspect that Catholicism as you understand it is the wrong path for everyone!

Edwin