I'm not a Catholic because

[pablope]

pablope;8503983:

The statue just happened to be there?? So its a coincidence that they just happened to be to gether to?? You guys are getting carried away with puting words into my reply’s that I didnt use. Please read my replys in their entirety before casting judgment as you judge me for supposedly condeming Catholics.

No…I suggest you go back to your original post…and you inferred worship with the picture.

Look at the pic again…one has his hands to his face bowed down…so he could be blowing his nose…one has his hands on his knees…so he could be picking or scratching something…all possibilities…

All I inferred is there are other plausible reasons. You, on the otherhand, already inferred worship and wrongdoing…that is why I asked you not to look at externals only.

Well, by showing this pic, other pics and links…and mentioning the pine cone and all seeing eye as being in cathedrals, and inferring pagan practice…then you are already condemning Catholics without seeking to ask and seek clarification.

 

[miztyzo562]

Hey Miztyz…
Let’s just say, for arguments sake, that those 6 people are really worshiping the statue as opposed to God. The CC in no way would ever endorse such silliness so your issue would be with those 6 folks, not the Catholic Church. Neither Catholics nor Protestants worship anyone other that God.

LOL. I already understand that the CC does not condone or encourage the above…

 

[CopticChristian]

LOL. I already understand that the CC does not condone or encourage the above…

took you awhile to acknowledge that.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m sure there is a logical explanation for the pine cone being there. The important point to make is that you and I both agree that it is not part of the Cristian faith and teachings of the CC.

If the teaching office of the CC ever insists that the word of our Lord IS NOT enough to suffice necessitating the need for pagan objects of remembrance to supplement the faith then I will most definitely agree with you my friend.

I believe we are dealing with a messianic/Protestant that denies that Catholics and Protestants got it right and they got it right as I have seen in every one of these guys…The Passion for Truth guys celebrate jewish holidays, this month was the day of atonement and others and the worship service is Saturday…it is an interesting distorted read on the site…they believe that they have to correct everyone…good luck with that one.

 

[miztyzo562]

took you awhile to acknowledge that.

No my friend I’ve had that view from the begining, my case was for the few.

 

[miztyzo562]

miztyzo562;8504023:

No…I suggest you go back to your original post…and you inferred worship with the picture.

Look at the pic again…one has his hands to his face bowed down…so he could be blowing his nose…one has his hands on his knees…so he could be picking or scratching something…all possibilities…

All I inferred is there are other plausible reasons. You, on the otherhand, already inferred worship and wrongdoing…that is why I asked you not to look at externals only.

Well, by showing this pic, other pics and links…and mentioning the pine cone and all seeing eye as being in cathedrals, and inferring pagan practice…then you are already condemning Catholics without seeking to ask and seek clarification.

1. I asked you not to judge me considering your interpretation of my intentions was wrong, even when I made clarifications with other posters which should have made the case obvious, but your reply was No. I must ask you if you know what the Scriptures say concerning passing judgment
2. Could they be blowing their noses or scratching their faces? Sure! Could it be a weird coincidence that they happen to be doing so around the statue of Mary together?? Could be! Could they be worshiping? Thats also a plausible conclusion. Again I’ve already made this situation clear whether you want to believe it or not, or you can just continue on the “Protestant Name Calling” bandwagon.
3. Posting that pic which I’ve already explained does not infer anything as you claim. You say im condemning Catholics even though I’ve already refuted that time and time again. Me bringing up those “objects” was in response to a question from my first post. If you dont like the answer then I suggest you research their origin instead of trying to insinuate personal interpretations of which you and others constantly accuse me of doing to incite an argument. Matthew 22:18

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Well, in reply to your question, I’ll give two examples of Catholics who received the Sacraments, whom I believe were not Christians at all.

OK. So, if someone falls into sin they are no longer Christian? What about Tammy Baker? Christian or not? What about Oral Roberts? Christian or not?

We do not know the state of Al Capone’s soul at death, but we can certainly say that his criminal actions were gravely sinful.

Same holds true for the conquistadors (or any soldiers) that committed atrocities. We can judge their acts as gravely sinful, but only God knows the state of their soul at death. Are they Christian? What’s the litmus test?

Peter denied Christ three times? Christian?
Paul persecuted Christians and even was complicit in the martyrdom of St. Stephen. Christian?
All of the Apostles, except St. John, abandoned Jesus at the crucifiction. Christians?

Telestia:

In the first century there were Christian Churches in other parts of the world apart from The Christian Church in the Roman Empire. There were no Popes in those days. I believe at least two apostles went to India and perhaps as far as China. Christian Churches sprang up throughout Asia apart from the activities happening in the Roman Empire.

There was Peter, and there were his successors. Those who succeeded to his office held the authority of Peter, which is held today by Benedict XVI. Even those Apostles who went to India (including St. Thomas the Apostle) acted in uniformity with Peter and his successors.

Telestia:

By the time Marco Polo trekked all the way to China, He found Christians and Christian Church’s apart from Catholicism.

He found Orthodox Christianity, and Catholic Churches in union with the Latin Rite Church. There were no proto-reformational Christian churches in Asia during the 1260s.

Telestia:

Marco Polo returned to Rome and informed the Pope of the Emperors’ request, the Pope sent 2 missionary priests, one whom died along the way. But the point I’m raising is that there are true Christians apart from the Catholic Church.

I think you misunderstand what the Catholic Church is. It is not simply the Latin Rite Church (a.k.a. Roman Catholic Church). There are more than 20 different rites that exist throughout the world, many of which are located in the middle east, asia and africa. These churches are united in doctrine with the Latin Rite Church, and accept the papal authority of the bishop of Rome, the successor to Peter’s chair. These, and the Orthodox Churches who are doctrinally identical in virtually every respect with the Catholic Church are in schism primarily because of their rejection of the doctrine of papal authority. But even these churches acknowledge the primacy of the see of Peter as the leader among equals.

Telestia:

And Joe, I am a Christian in accord with Gospel of Jesus Christ, and I equally accept genuine believers of the Catholic Church as my Christian brothers and sisters also. Why divide us?

But Telestia, you seem to be saying that a person is “Christian” in spite of, or notwithstandingbeing Catholic. Whereas, we would say you are a Christian because you are a follower of Christ.

Peace,
Robert

 

[miztyzo562]

If you want to play games, I would suggest that this is not the place to do it. How do you know that “THERE ARE” people who worship Mary? Even if that were true, why would you bring this up on a Catholic Forum when you know that this is not a teaching of the Catholic Church, nor a belief of any Catholic I have ever known? I can certainly understand someone asking the question; it is a myth that is widley believed by many outside of our Church. But, once explained, why do you insist that this is what those people in the picture were doing? Why would you point to the extremely rare exception rather than engage us in questioning actual Church teaching?

You posed the question and it has been answered. It sounds like you didn’t get the answer for which you had hoped and you’re having a very hard time letting it go. You have scirptural proof that worshiping Mary is a bad thing and we would agree with you. Now you have nowhere to go with your argument, yet you continue to make it. That is why people are questioning your motives.

How can you construe that im playing games? Im only answering questions as they come that are posed to me. You gave no rebuttal to the 12th response to you, which can only mean you agree or have no answer. Again you insist that IM interpreting that those people are actively engaging in worship is your own view and not mine which I’ve stated and explained time and time again.

If I had a question regarding such, wouldn’t it be obvious for me to start a new thread to address this concern instead of taking a discussion off topic which some of you have done. You accuse my motives yet I had none other than replying to a topic called “Why im not Catholic”, and because you didn’t like my answers you became argumentative. When I gave Mary Ann Collins as an example… Ignored.

You proclaim that I’ve been given answers that I reject, yet you and others hypocritically give interpretations to my responses which seem to you wrong, yet ignore clarification. If you don’t like people that are not Catholic and their reasoning, then I suggest not reading a thread entitled “Why Im Not Catholic” in a Sub Forum called “Non Catholic Religions”

 

[joe370]

LOL. I already understand that the CC does not condone or encourage the above…

 

[joe370]

For one, the egyptian obelisk at the vatican.the parallel of Isis and the Virgin Mary in statues.
To summarize:
youtube.com/watch?v=wSfGhjSAzGE&feature=related

Of course I know you don’t believe that Christians belonging to the CC worship Mary as a Goddess, which is why I am a little curious as to how Jesus’ mother Mary, a mere creature like the rest of us, is similar to Isis who was worshiped as the Ancient Egyptian pagan goddess of motherhood, magic and fertility in the Greco-Roman world?

I was perusing the internet and I was blown away at how many anti-catholic sites there are, all of which claiming that the Catholic church is guilty of Egyptian solar worship due to the fact that there is an obelisk at the Vatican. I know you don’t believe such silliness, but was, nonetheless, shocked that others would buy into such silliness.

The Romans of course were the one’s to commission obelisks in an ancient style Egyptian, representing pagan sun worship, and there are 5 of them in Rome, all of which are topped off with the the cross of Christ as a sort of symbol of victory of the true God over all those silly pagan forms of worship. I guess the CC could have destroyed them but by preserving them and topping them off with the Cross of Jesus Christ, speaks volumes about the immense victory of Christ over pagan ideology in my humble opinion.

 

[Roy5]

Back again

**Why do I have so much trouble accepting the 'faith of my fathers'?** My paternal family tree was so Catholic that it produced an archbishop.

** The main reason is that I treasure my freedom to think independently**. I was reading a review of a new book - the title of it escapes me - in the America magazine published by the Jesuits and which arrived today. This new book explains the outflow from Catholicism in large part because more and more Catholics and ex-Catholics value the same freedom. They become educated, analyze religious teachings instead of simply accepting them, and come to the point of believing some and rejecting others. This results in part because of our culture, its religious diversity, its respect for individuality and diversity of opinion.

  **Another reason is that Catholic doctrine and theology seems to focus so much attention on the distant past, **as though the principal spiritual wisdom comes from the past. This is a half-truth. There was wisdom but the past also was full of superstition, partly because of much less knowledge than we have today, partly because of the influence of paganism upon Christianity during the early centuries AD. I have studied the Church Fathers, and they were brilliant for their age, but many of their conclusions were based on false information/beliefs which has been trumped by findings, discoveries, and other advances since those years. Now that we know that the earth revolves around the sun and not vice versa, that there may be a million or a billion solar systems out in space, that Joshua could not possibly have had the sun stand still (as scripture claims), that germs usually cause disease and not demons or punishment for sin - now that we have moved far beyond ancient and medieval times and knowledge has explored manyfold, it's difficult to simply say "I believe" instead of pondering, weighing, investigating and examining beliefs.

** The main reason to remain a Catholic is admiration for its good work in the world,** such as achieved by Fr. Damien and Mother Theresa, aid to the poor, good hospitals and schools, etc. Most priests and nuns are to be admired. Even here, however, the whole saint cult and some of the wild tales associated with many saints is alienating. And other ‘miracles’ as well. I believe that the house from Loreto was said to be carried by angels from the Holy Land to Italy, and people saw Mary and the Baby Jesus as it flew by. Give me a break! There are dozens, maybe hundreds, of such fanatasies involving miracles that modern minds cannot believe. Those simpler days of pious gullibility have passed for millions of people who would like to remain with the Church but find it impossible. I’m aware that this is seen as egotism, rebelliousness, or whatever. It’s honesty - that’s what it is.
**For those who can accept all that the Church teaches, God bless you.** And for those who have fallen away, God bless you, too. God bless everybody! We're all pilgrims in this magnificent, mammoth, miraculous and mysterious world. I find the entire adventure fascinating and I look forward to the life to come when we shall all know fact from fiction. Luckily, God is gracious, kind, merciful, forgiving, and loving, so all of us who humbly and earnestly seek him should not fear but live boldly and joyfully.

 

[miztyzo562]

Of course I know you don’t believe that Christians belonging to the CC worship Mary as a Goddess,I guess the CC could have destroyed them but by preserving them and topping them off with the Cross of Jesus Christ, speaks volumes about the immense victory of Christ over pagan ideology in my humble opinionI was perusing the internet and I was blown away at how many anti-catholic sites there are, :

Of course not, unlike some that would paint a picture of me other wise I do believe that God judges the heart as said in Samuel. Now taking a stance about these objects with archeological backing is one thing, and as you’ve discovered the array of anti Catholic websites. Attacking ones faith is blatantly wrong. ehem.

 

[joe370]

Of course not, unlike some that would paint a picture of me other wise I do believe that God judges the heart as said in Samuel. Now taking a stance about these objects with archeological backing is one thing, and as you’ve discovered the array of anti Catholic websites. Attacking ones faith is blatantly wrong. ehem.

I was really surprised to see sites devoted to spreading the notion that the Pope’s stole possesses symbols of Baal, Ishtar and Shamash and therefore is evil.

Sometimes symbols can mean different things to different people. For example, the fish, a Christian symbol, was a religious symbol associated with the pagan Great Mother Goddess long before Christ. You know, it just hit me, regarding the content of some of those anti-catholic sites:

The 5th century pagans of the Roman Empire (man there were a lot of pagan religions then) - attributed the fall of Rome to the CC eventually abolishing pagan worship. So if the various 5th century pagans were angry that the CC abolished pagan worship, and they were, then its hard to imagine that the Catholic church turned around and adopted paganism. Sort of an oxymoron…

 

[joe370]

Hey Roy5…

**Why do I have so much trouble accepting the 'faith of my fathers'?** My paternal family tree was so Catholic that it produced an archbishop.

** The main reason is that I treasure my freedom to think independently**. I was reading a review of a new book - the title of it escapes me - in the America magazine published by the Jesuits and which arrived today. This new book explains the outflow from Catholicism in large part because more and more Catholics and ex-Catholics value the same freedom. They become educated, analyze religious teachings instead of simply accepting them, and come to the point of believing some and rejecting others. This results in part because of our culture, its religious diversity, its respect for individuality and diversity of opinion.

Independent thinking is a great thing. By the same token though, there are many non-Catholics today becoming more and more educated as well, by analyzing religious teachings and history, instead of simply accepting those teachings introduced to them by non-Catholic churches, and eventually coming to the point of believing that the CC is the church founded by Jesus. It happened to me.

**Another reason is that Catholic doctrine and theology seems to focus so much attention on the distant past, **as though the principal spiritual wisdom comes from the past. This is a half-truth…

I believe just the opposite. The closer we get to the apostolic age, regarding doctrinal truth only, the better, I think. Like anything regarding the past, be it secular or religious, “The water is always cooler and cleaner as you draw closer to the source."

** The main reason to remain a Catholic is admiration for its good work in the world,** such as achieved by Fr. Damien and Mother Theresa, aid to the poor, good hospitals and schools, etc. Most priests and nuns are to be admired.

The same goes for those wonderful protestant churches as well.

Even here, however, the whole saint cult and some of the wild tales associated with many saints is alienating. And other ‘miracles’ as well.

The saints eg Faustina, and confirmed miracles have been faith affirming and a major boon in my life.

I believe that the house from Loreto was said to be carried by angels from the Holy Land to Italy, and people saw Mary and the Baby Jesus as it flew by. Give me a break!

Kind of like a man walking on water and raising the dead… LOL…I have never heard of Loreto; I’ll have to check it out.

There are dozens, maybe hundreds, of such fanatasies involving miracles that modern minds cannot believe.

Just as they cannot believe the miracles of the bible.

Those simpler days of pious gullibility have passed for millions of people who would like to remain with the Church but find it impossible. I’m aware that this is seen as egotism, rebelliousness, or whatever. It’s honesty - that’s what it is.

Just like those farfetched stories such as Noah’s ark and the miracles of both the NT and the OT, making it impossible for so many people to be a Christian. Many just don’t want anything to do with those simpler days of pious gullibility.

  **For those who can accept all that the Church teaches, God bless you.** And for those who have fallen away, God bless you, too. God bless everybody! We're all pilgrims in this magnificent, mammoth, miraculous and mysterious world. I find the entire adventure fascinating and I look forward to the life to come when we shall all know fact from fiction. Luckily, God is gracious, kind, merciful, forgiving, and loving, so all of us who humbly and earnestly seek him should not fear but live boldly and joyfully.

Amen to that brother…

 

[CopticChristian]

Back again

**Why do I have so much trouble accepting the 'faith of my fathers'?** My paternal family tree was so Catholic that it produced an archbishop.

** The main reason is that I treasure my freedom to think independently**. I was reading a review of a new book - the title of it escapes me - in the America magazine published by the Jesuits and which arrived today. This new book explains the outflow from Catholicism in large part because more and more Catholics and ex-Catholics value the same freedom. They become educated, analyze religious teachings instead of simply accepting them, and come to the point of believing some and rejecting others. This results in part because of our culture, its religious diversity, its respect for individuality and diversity of opinion.

  **Another reason is that Catholic doctrine and theology seems to focus so much attention on the distant past, **as though the principal spiritual wisdom comes from the past. This is a half-truth. There was wisdom but the past also was full of superstition, partly because of much less knowledge than we have today, partly because of the influence of paganism upon Christianity during the early centuries AD. I have studied the Church Fathers, and they were brilliant for their age, but many of their conclusions were based on false information/beliefs which has been trumped by findings, discoveries, and other advances since those years. Now that we know that the earth revolves around the sun and not vice versa, that there may be a million or a billion solar systems out in space, that Joshua could not possibly have had the sun stand still (as scripture claims), that germs usually cause disease and not demons or punishment for sin - now that we have moved far beyond ancient and medieval times and knowledge has explored manyfold, it's difficult to simply say "I believe" instead of pondering, weighing, investigating and examining beliefs.

** The main reason to remain a Catholic is admiration for its good work in the world,** such as achieved by Fr. Damien and Mother Theresa, aid to the poor, good hospitals and schools, etc. Most priests and nuns are to be admired. Even here, however, the whole saint cult and some of the wild tales associated with many saints is alienating. And other ‘miracles’ as well. I believe that the house from Loreto was said to be carried by angels from the Holy Land to Italy, and people saw Mary and the Baby Jesus as it flew by. Give me a break! There are dozens, maybe hundreds, of such fanatasies involving miracles that modern minds cannot believe. Those simpler days of pious gullibility have passed for millions of people who would like to remain with the Church but find it impossible. I’m aware that this is seen as egotism, rebelliousness, or whatever. It’s honesty - that’s what it is.

  **For those who can accept all that the Church teaches, God bless you.** And for those who have fallen away, God bless you, too. God bless everybody! We're all pilgrims in this magnificent, mammoth, miraculous and mysterious world. I find the entire adventure fascinating and I look forward to the life to come when we shall all know fact from fiction. Luckily, God is gracious, kind, merciful, forgiving, and loving, so all of us who humbly and earnestly seek him should not fear but live boldly and joyfully.

You premise is that education leads you to rejection of religous truth. I wonder if Aquinas would agree with you. You infer that those that accept the truth are uneducated. I have and MD after my name and thensome and as I got more and more educated I found myself looking more and more into the teachings of the Church. I believe you are speaking for Roy.

 

[Tony888]

You premise is that education leads you to rejection of religous truth. I wonder if Aquinas would agree with you. You infer that those that accept the truth are uneducated. I have and MD after my name and thensome and as I got more and more educated I found myself looking more and more into the teachings of the Church. I believe you are speaking for Roy.

Has anyone here read James Fowler’s work on Stages of Spiritual Growth?
Scott Peck has also done a nice job of simplifying this thinking.

Roy seems to be in the “analytical” phase, and there is hope he will Come Home in the future.

 

[David89]

I was perusing the internet and I was blown away at how many anti-catholic sites there are, all of which claiming that the Catholic church is guilty of Egyptian solar worship due to the fact that there is an obelisk at the Vatican.

I am so with you. I do not understand how people can just link things together that are so irrational. By that logic someone could say:

“Protestants have a band in their church. The logical conclusion is they must worship bands!”

 

[Phreeque]

"Why I’m not Catholic" Well, just for starters (since I could write you a mile long scroll worth of reasons): on the one hand, the Catholic Church says to Protestants, “Aw, c’mon back into the fold, Stray Brethren.” (We’ll ignore for the moment the condescension implicit in the label.) On the other hand, Trent’s anathemas still stand, and Trent is infallible dogma, right? It can’t be rescinded, right? So, then, I’m asking myself, what gives with this institution: have they forgotten their old documents (if so, how do I know they won’t resurrect them, once I join )? Or are they less than ingenuous, or…maybe they’re counting on us dumb stray sheep not to notice the discrepancy/contradiction (not to mention the condescension)?

 

[Phreeque]

…I do not believe the church of Jesus Christ exists exclusively in one organization. I furthermore do not believe God gives special gifts and gracings to one organization that He will not give to other organizations on the basis of lineage.

 

[David89]

…I do not believe the church of Jesus Christ exists exclusively in one organization. I furthermore do not believe God gives special gifts and gracings to one organization that He will not give to other organizations on the basis of lineage.

Is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ present in nonCatholic communities of woreship founded at the earliest 500 years ago?

No.

Is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ present in the Catholic Church founded by Christ himself 2000 years ago?

Yes.

Was Protestant teaching foretold in scripture?

Yes.

“For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths” (2 Tim. 4:3–4).

They found their own teachers to suit what they like from the 40000 different protestant denominations teaching different things. Who are the original teachers?

Those who come from the teachings of the apostles, the only Church that has this apostolic authority is the ONE Church founded by Christ. The pillar and foundation of the truth. “But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15‬‬)

What does scripture tell us we shouldnt do?

Interpret scripture without our guide of Apostolic Authority

“At the same time, we must recognise that the interpretation of scriptural prophecy is never a matter for the individual” 2 Peter 1:20

Acts 8:29-35 show the apostle Phillip listening to a Jewish minister to the Queen of Ethiopia, a highly educated man, reading from the book of the prophet Isaiah. The Holy Spirit urges Phillip to ask the man “Do you understand what you are reading?”. The man replies, “How could I, unless I have someone to guide me”. The apostle Phillip then sits with the man and explains the Good News.

Tell me do you think Christ would teach different truths? Surly there is only one truth. Hence Christ wants us to be in the one Church teaching all the truth that he left for us and not man made doctrines like sola sciptura invented 500 years ago.