I'm not a Catholic because

[PJM]

=Roy5;8573402]My own experience, for what it’s worth, is that many, many Catholics are like millions of mainstream Protestants. They are believers in God, admirers of Christ, committed to lives of integrity, and reaching out to help the less fortunate. They have doubts about much of scripture, whether the atrocity stories of the OT or some of the miracles and teachings of the NT. However, they find comfort in the church, often a source of friends, and something solid amidst all the uncertainties of daily life.

** These Catholics ignore much of what the church teaches**, whether its the ban on birth control or such doctrines as transubstantiation or the sinless life of Mary.

  **Most mainline Protestants I know - unlike most evangelical Protestants - focus on what they can believe and ignore the rest**. They may even question such basic traditions as the virgin birth and physical resurrection of Christ. They see such doctrines as hand-me-downs from ancient times that now symbolize to them their deep faith in God. Many of these Protestants could be called Christian agnostics - Christians who accept the leadership of Christ when it comes to his Sermon on the Mount but have more questions than answers when it comes to ultimate questions. They have faith that God is in charge but that our human brain is not able to understand the vast mysteries of this mammoth universe. In a sense, this is a testimony to the greatness of God. I believe it was Harry Emerson Fosdick, the renown preacher of 50+ years ago, who said that "I can only believe in a God whom I cannot understand."  That's what makes God God!

** I personally have a feeling of affinity to these freethinking Catholics and Protestants.** I find it exciting to live in a universe which is so miraculous that our minds cannot comprehend it. I do believe that someday, somewhere, in some sense, we will understand. I can wait. Meanwhile, I have a firm belief in that God who remains a magnificent mystery.

 **God bless Catholics, Protestants - and I would add Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Muslims, and all sincere devotees of God who embrace tolerance and respect for other traditions.** Let us strive together to make religion a bridge rather than a barrier.

***What you say is true, BUT NOT RIGHT

Actions have consequences and when Jesus said not everyone who calls “Lord Lord” will get to heaven; it definately includes ALL name only catholics; accepting ONLy what they agree with and attempting to form Christ Only Church and Only Faith into there own in=mage amd likings.***

**Heb.6: 10 **“For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

Eph. 3: 9-10 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [singular; meaning todays CC] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,

2 Thess. 1: 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God **and upon those who do not obey the [ENTIRE AND COMPLETE] gospel of our Lord Jesus. **They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Thou art Peter and upon you, I Do build my church and I give YOU PETER the Key to the Gate of heaven, AND what you teach and command I too COMMAND and warrant. READ: John 14;16-17 and John 17:15-19].

God Bless,
Pat

 

[dingodile]

Good and very GOOD! But is that all God expects, or all that you should settle for?

I couldn’t say. It makes sense that he gave me moral discernment because he would like me to follow the moral law. I don’t see that as “settling for” anything.

A conscience is somewhat similar to a unused note pad. It starts out blank, and it is UP TO US to fill it with things and ideas that will help us. But if we only reply on our lives experiences we MAY be missing vital information. So we must endeavor to learn ALL that is TRUE, and ALL that is Good, in order that we WILL KNOW what God expects from us.

There are general moral principles that can be applied to many, many particular situations. I’ve stated at least one of them earlier in this thread, and it seems to me to be self-evident. I’m not relying on life experience to see that, any more than I’m relying on life experience to see that the sum of any two odd numbers is an even number.

That then becomes the RIGHT USE of the Spiritual gifts God has given to us for this very purpose.

Saint Jerome said: “Ignorance of the Bible is ingnorance of God.” Prudence and common sense demand that we form our conscience to CONFORM with ALL God’s makes available for us to know that is Good.

I’m not ignorant of the Bible. I’ve read it. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a record of the responses of ordinary human beings to extraordinary experiences. In that, it’s certainly important and worthy of study, but I see no reason to let it override my conscience.

 

[PJM]

=dingodile;8579191]I couldn’t say. It makes sense that he gave me moral discernment because he would like me to follow the moral law. I don’t see that as “settling for” anything.

There are general moral principles that can be applied to many, many particular situations. I’ve stated at least one of them earlier in this thread, and it seems to me to be self-evident. I’m not relying on life experience to see that, any more than I’m relying on life experience to see that the sum of any two odd numbers is an even number.

That then becomes the RIGHT USE of the Spiritual gifts God has given to us for this very purpose.

I’m not ignorant of the Bible. I’ve read it. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a record of the responses of ordinary human beings to extraordinary experiences. In that, it’s certainly important and worthy of study, but I see no reason to let it override my conscience.

Know that your in my thoughts and prayers,

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[dingodile]

Know that your in my thoughts and prayers,

God Bless you,
Pat

Thank you, and back atcha.

 

[Bballer32]

Well, it’s not awesome as such, it’s just natural.

I honestly dont know.

But if there was such a person, then to me, so please dont take offence as Im replying to the question you asked me honestly, to me, he could be no more or less than a human being.

Sarah x

I’m not against what you believe, but have you ever thought about the existence of God?

 

[atheistgirl]

I’m not against what you believe, but have you ever thought about the existence of God?

Yes. Many times. And to me, it just doesnt stack up.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Please accept my apology.

No apology needed my friend. But thank you for being so nice and honorable. These conversations can get very emotive, understandably. It is also never my intention to say anything that would cause anyone to be offended here, Im very aware I am a guest on a catholic forum. And I have to say for the most part, people have been very tolerant, charitable, kind and friendly here - that is not something you see on a lot of forums discussing religion. Way off topic so I was stop now, but thank you for your comment and it goes without saying I would never ever want to say anything that would cause offence to you or anyone else, and if I have I am indeed very sorry. It was never my intention.

Sarah x

 

[PJM]

=atheistgirl;8580632]Yes. Many times. And to me, it just doesnt stack up.

Sarah x

***I certainly respect your right to your own views; but am nevertheless concfused how one can enterain such a notion.

The complexirty of the universe and asking one-self, “why man” was created, seems to me to be SUPER ABUNDANT evidence of a Superior Being. The complexites and awesomeness of both are stagering.

Neither, it seems to me could be accidental:shrug: And both logically exist for a reason.

God Bless you, and y=thanks for participating in our conversation.

Pat***

 

[Bballer32]

Yes. Many times. And to me, it just doesnt stack up.

Sarah x

Here is how i know God exists.

People like you always question the existence of God and come to the conclusion that he doesn’t exist. As Catholics, we believe that God created the soul to try to achieve the greatness of God. People are always mourning for God and looking for his love, but listen to this. If God didn’t exist why would we always be mourning for him? Why would people talk about him? Why would there be any religion at all if there was no super being? People don’t just long for nothing. Let’s say someone’s dad died while they were a child and had no sense of remembrance. There were also no pictures of the father. When the child grew up his mother told him about his father but never knew what he looked like because there were no pictures. His mother, however, told him about his father and what he was like. Why would this person believe in his father if he had know idea what he looked like or because he had no idea he exisited? It is because his mother was there to tell him about his father. That is the same way Moses, Abraham, David, and Jesus tell us about the Father because they have seen him and know he exists. We have not. But we believe them the same way the child believes his mother.

 

[PJM]

=Bballer32;8581571]Here is how i know God exists.

People like you always question the existence of God and come to the conclusion that he doesn’t exist. As Catholics, we believe that God created the soul to try to achieve the greatness of God. People are always mourning for God and looking for his love, but listen to this. If God didn’t exist why would we always be mourning for him? Why would people talk about him? Why would there be any religion at all if there was no super being? People don’t just long for nothing. Let’s say someone’s dad died while they were a child and had no sense of remembrance. There were also no pictures of the father. When the child grew up his mother told him about his father but never knew what he looked like because there were no pictures. His mother, however, told him about his father and what he was like. Why would this person believe in his father if he had know idea what he looked like or because he had no idea he exisited? It is because his mother was there to tell him about his father. That is the same way Moses, Abraham, David, and Jesus tell us about the Father because they have seen him and know he exists. We have not. But we believe them the same way the child believes his mother.

A VERY GOOD post BUT could have GREAT, with a bit more charity:thumbsup:

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Bballer32]

A VERY GOOD post BUT could have GREAT, with a bit more charity:thumbsup:

God Bless,
Pat

Thank you. I didn’t mean to say it harsh. I’ve learned to always try to convert and argue with people with love, not hate. Sorry

 

[Maciosaig]

I’m am not a modern Catholic because they , the church, are no longer real Catholics. I’ve learned more about being a Christian from my conversion to LCMS and now WELS Lutheran than I ever did as a Catholic. I got tired of the major differences between parishes, Eucharistic ministers, alter girls, pedophile priests and the entire church hiding them, making excuses fir them and accepting their behavior as normal. Im also not a Catholic because of the outright lies about Martin Luther, “he really wasn’t a bad guy”-Pope Benedict. Its all about how much money you can give, what happened to caring for the needy? I could go on but I’ve been deceived by the man made rules of the church and their greediness. How can I be a Catholic, or more correctly a modern ultra liberal catholic ?

 

[dingodile]

It has taken me all of my adult life (pushing 60) to get from atheism or agnosticism to “mere theism.” The gap between mere theism and Christianity seems much, much wider to me than the gap between agnosticism and theism. I know that C.S. Lewis lingered at the mere theism stage for only a couple of years. I don’t know how it’ll play out for me; I only know where I am now.

 

[atheistgirl]

Why would this person believe in his father if he had know idea what he looked like or because he had no idea he exisited?

Well, simply because we know about reproduction and how it works and he had to have a father, and the guy in question, even if he was a test tube baby, would know this. But leaving that aside, he already KNOWS a father existed, its just up to the mother to fill in the gaps about what he was like, his personality etc.

We have not. But we believe them the same way the child believes his mother.

Interestingly, a lot of work has been done with kids that shows we are actually predisposed to give meaning and feelings to things which have none. We are also predisposed to believe adults when we are kids, and especially parents and those in authority. This makes perfect eveolutionary sense when you think about it - nowadays, kids dont face the same dangers they did thousands upon thousands of years ago. But the predisposition has been shown to be there. Now before we understood anything about seasons, the stars, reproduction, medicine, or anything else, given we have this predisposition to give things agency, its easy to understand how early man imagined the ‘‘gods’’ angry with them and needing appeasing to ensure the sun came back up, or the crops succeeded and so forth, and we can see from history the emergence of a clergy/legal/governing class to manage botht the people and their conduct to ensure the ‘‘gods’’ were best pleased, otherwise there may be storms, droughts, earthquakes etc. And we told each other stories to explain how we got here, why, where we came from and where we’re going.

Thats why I think its fascinating that although there are many different religions in the world, the fact is that every people have their own stories of creation, origins, heroes, and purpose. And they all have similar themes. Now sure, some were copied and carried with traders etc, but its really interesing to me that we humans, although telling vastly different stories, the stories all cover the same themes, themes essential to fill our curiosity about who we are.

Of course, now we know so much more, and understand so much better, but the stories within the different cultures and peoples still prevail.

Sarah x

 

[Bballer32]

Well, simply because we know about reproduction and how it works and he had to have a father, and the guy in question, even if he was a test tube baby, would know this. But leaving that aside, he already KNOWS a father existed, its just up to the mother to fill in the gaps about what he was like, his personality etc.

Interestingly, a lot of work has been done with kids that shows we are actually predisposed to give meaning and feelings to things which have none. We are also predisposed to believe adults when we are kids, and especially parents and those in authority. This makes perfect eveolutionary sense when you think about it - nowadays, kids dont face the same dangers they did thousands upon thousands of years ago. But the predisposition has been shown to be there. Now before we understood anything about seasons, the stars, reproduction, medicine, or anything else, given we have this predisposition to give things agency, its easy to understand how early man imagined the ‘‘gods’’ angry with them and needing appeasing to ensure the sun came back up, or the crops succeeded and so forth, and we can see from history the emergence of a clergy/legal/governing class to manage botht the people and their conduct to ensure the ‘‘gods’’ were best pleased, otherwise there may be storms, droughts, earthquakes etc. And we told each other stories to explain how we got here, why, where we came from and where we’re going.

Thats why I think its fascinating that although there are many different religions in the world, the fact is that every people have their own stories of creation, origins, heroes, and purpose. And they all have similar themes. Now sure, some were copied and carried with traders etc, but its really interesing to me that we humans, although telling vastly different stories, the stories all cover the same themes, themes essential to fill our curiosity about who we are.

Of course, now we know so much more, and understand so much better, but the stories within the different cultures and peoples still prevail.

Sarah x

Where do we get “predisposition” from? Our minds? Then, where do our minds get it? Our inner feelings? Where do those come from? See there has to be a meaning from where everything comes from. No matter how far back you go on broad topics, there is always a sort of Divine Intervention.

Now, let me ask you another situation.

Atoms. Can we physically **SEE ** them? Of course not. How do we know they are there then? Microscopes cannot see them. It is just the balance of positive and negative attractions and that they revolve around something. That is it. We cannot see God either. But we know he exists the same way atoms exist.

 

[Bballer32]

I’m am not a modern Catholic because they , the church, are no longer real Catholics. I’ve learned more about being a Christian from my conversion to LCMS and now WELS Lutheran than I ever did as a Catholic. I got tired of the major differences between parishes, Eucharistic ministers, alter girls, pedophile priests and the entire church hiding them, making excuses fir them and accepting their behavior as normal. Im also not a Catholic because of the outright lies about Martin Luther, “he really wasn’t a bad guy”-Pope Benedict. Its all about how much money you can give, what happened to caring for the needy? I could go on but I’ve been deceived by the man made rules of the church and their greediness. How can I be a Catholic, or more correctly a modern ultra liberal catholic ?

By doing what God says through the Church! There are a lot of Catholics like you. They just do not understand how to allow God into their lives and understand all of the difficulties about them. And my mother was a WELS Lutheran before her conversion, and she realized that everything that they taught her was totally out of proportion.

 

[atheistgirl]

No matter how far back you go on broad topics, there is always a sort of Divine Intervention.

Im sorry but not for me. Its all perfectly explainable, to me, by perfectly understandable biological processes.

Now, let me ask you another situation.

Atoms. Can we physically **SEE ** them? Of course not. How do we know they are there then? Microscopes cannot see them.

Actually we can:

aip.org/png/2006/264.htm

But we know he exists the same way atoms exist.

I have to disagree - we know atoms exist because we can see them, we can experiment with them, we know how they behave and can predict this behavior etc. and this is confirmed every second of every day in the stuff we use, the medicines we take and so on.

The same can not be said for God - In my opinion.

Sarah x

 

[Portrait]

I have to disagree - we know atoms exist because we can see them, we can experiment with them, we know how they behave and can predict this behavior etc. and this is confirmed every second of every day in the stuff we use, the medicines we take and so on.

The same can not be said for God - In my opinion.

Sarah x

Dear Sarah,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well.

Some people think that evidence must be seen and touched, as an animal sees a patch of grass and eats it. However, men are not mere animals for they possess reason and can appreciate intellectual evidence. For example, the evidence of beauty in music or in painting is perceived by man’s mind, not by his senses. an animal could hear the same sounds, or see the same colours, without being impressed by their harmony and proportion. Apart from the bible altogether, reason can detect sufficient evidence to guarantee the existence of God.

Welcome back again.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[PJM]

=Maciosaig;8582118]I’m am not a modern Catholic because they , the church, are no longer real Catholics. I’ve learned more about being a Christian from my conversion to LCMS and now WELS Lutheran than I ever did as a Catholic. I got tired of the major differences between parishes, Eucharistic ministers, alter girls, pedophile priests and the entire church hiding them, making excuses fir them and accepting their behavior as normal. Im also not a Catholic because of the outright lies about Martin Luther, “he really wasn’t a bad guy”-Pope Benedict. Its all about how much money you can give, what happened to caring for the needy? I could go on but I’ve been deceived by the man made rules of the church and their greediness. How can I be a Catholic, or more correctly a modern ultra liberal catholic ?

My dear friend,

The PEOPLE who call themselves “Catholic” but fail to live as such will always exist. PLEASE do not blame God’s One and ONLY Church for the sins of some of Her followers.

Given time, one will find fault with SOME of the people in evey faith denomination.

BUT know this: God never ever permitted belief in more than Him, or ONLY Hos One set of faith beliefs and always ONLY One Church. This being the CC.

ONLY the CC is founded by God Himself!

ONLY The CC Is protrected IN HER TEACHINGS ON ALL MATTERS OF FAITH-BELIEFS AND MORALS [John 14:16-17; Jn.17:15-19, John 20:19-22, Mt. 16:18-19; Mt. 28:16-20]

ONLY the CC has the seven sacraments validy and licitly [actually a source of Grace and Do what God intends for them to do] regardless of what anyone claims!

This means ONLY the CC has Jesus Himself Really, Truly and Substanually present in Holy Communion

This means ONLY the CC has KNOWN forgiveness of sins

This means that ONLY the CC has the last right, indulgences and Mass.

God will NOT tolerate anyone leaving these things for personal choces. comfort fators or any other reason

PLEASE read this carefully: THIS WAS WRITTEN WHEN THE ONLY CHRISTIAN CHURCH IN THE ENTIRE WORLD WAS THE CC; SO IT APPLIES PRECISELY TO YOUR DECISION

**Heb.6: 4 to 8 **“For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [BAPTIZED IN THE CC] who have tasted the heavenly gift, {Jesus HIMSELF IN CATHOLIC HC] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [BEEN CONFIRMED IN THE CC AND THUS HAVING A PERSONAL COVENANT WITH GOD]
and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned”

Know dear friend this is not written in anger but with the GREATEST possible concern for your soul.

Satan works in us through our emotions and you have permitted HIM to lead you seriously astray.

The practice of faith is NOT about us and felling good; it is about knowing, loving and obeying God!

Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”

**1Pet.5: 1, 9 ** “So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world.”

1Pet.4: 13 ” But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

Phil.1: 29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “

**2Thes.1: 5 **“This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering “

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.
Please feel free to challange me on ANY point I have made here. Space limits further advice.

May God GRANT you mercy and understanding,
Pat

 

[PJM]

=dingodile;8582364]It has taken me all of my adult life (pushing 60) to get from atheism or agnosticism to “mere theism.” The gap between mere theism and Christianity seems much, much wider to me than the gap between agnosticism and theism. I know that C.S. Lewis lingered at the mere theism stage for only a couple of years. I don’t know how it’ll play out for me; I only know where I am now.

***Know two things my friend:

Your in my prayers

God always meets us “where we are at” IF we allow it.

Check out my BLOG where I have posted about 60 very informative articles. You may find something of interest? Thank you for your post. And if you have ANY questions; I’d be happy to discuss them with you. Just send me a private message

But keep in mind ONLY God knows how much more time we have.

May God grant you peace and understanding,

Pat***