I'm sick of the rabid Islamophobia on these boards...

[Verisimilitude]

no i don’t beleive that islamic law should be the law of the land, muslims don’t either, those are the terrorists that claim islam.

maybe u should not submit or should, thats up to u

I think your knowledge of Sharia Law, dhimmitude, and what most Moslems think about those topics is lacking.

Have you ever read the Quran, or any hadith? Ever hear of the pact of Umar?

 

[Keikiolu]

So as to be clear, let me …{snip}…and one another.

Basically, while you agree that all of the above passages from the Qur’an could be seen as a call to peace and tolerance, you argue that it is also quite possible to see them as justifying violence, at least tacitly, if not overtly when analyzed with other passages that are more obvious in their call to violence and intolerance (take not Jews and Christians to be friends, etc, etc) You then go on to say, that it is these people who see the above passages, along with others mentioned in this thread, as a call to spread the Islamic faith through violence and conquest, that we should be concerned with. I hope that this is a fair representation of your position.

That would be correct. The peaceful are peaceful, and the violent are the problem.

Let me be clear on my position. Those individuals who find justification for murder and intolerance in the Qur’an (al-Qaeda types and any others who would commit violence in the name of Allah) should be fought against tooth and nail. If possible, help them to change their way of thinking. If not, deal with them appropriately (capture them if possible, kill them if absolutely necessary–though I would still grieve for the loss of human life, no matter how despicable a human he/she was).

OK.

However, I’m fairly certain everyone on this thread would agree that violent extremist Muslims need to be fought. The issue that seems to be under debate here, is whether moderate and peaceful Muslims can rightly claim that theirs is a religion of peace hijacked by radical extremists.

That sums it up quite well. Just to be clear, from my point of view, my argument is that islam, since NO ONE can limit anyone’s interpretation of it, can claim it to be a “religion of peace”, since there is no ONE THING that the word “RELIGION” in the phrase “religion of peace” represents.

Islam as interpreted by a peaceful person is a religion of peace.

Islam as interpreted by a non-peaceful person is NOT a religion of peace.

These moderate Muslims would point to the above passages from the Qur’an as evidence that violence and intolerance has no place within their faith. I believe they would consider extremist interpretations of the Qur’an just what you labeled them: “sociopathic interpretations of Islam.”

From what I have read, many of these moderate Muslims would go on to say that those passages in the Qur’an that advocate violence or intolerance were meant for a certain time in history and that they are no longer applicable today.

Why should we say that they are wrong? Who are we to tell these moderates, who we should be cheering on, that they don’t know their own faith?

I DON’T say they are wrong. I say their opinion doesn’t matter.

If the “moderates” don’t realize that their religion is easily interpretable as justification for evil, then they DON’T know their religion very well, and NEED to be informed of that.

I very definately DO cheer on “moderate moslems” to combat the “jihadis”. The problem is that they don’t do it, because it’s “difficult”, and those who do do it are persecuted into simply becoming “fertile ground” for the growth of the jihad.

These moderates need our support in their struggle against the extremists in their own religion. By saying that Islam is inherently violent, we validate the extremist position and undercut those Muslims who argue for peace and tolerance.

What I say is that islam is inherently violent if interpreted in a perfectly acceptable (legal) way in the “islamic world”.

If the “moderates” don’t agree with this, then they are simply delusional.

What the “moderates” need to do is to make it unnacceptable for the koran and Ahadith to be interpretable as the jihadis do.

How do they do that…!? I don’t know, and I wouldn’t impose onthem to change THEIR religion…! That is for THEM to do.

Only after they come to realize that they are putting their people in the way of EXTREME NEAR GENOCIDAL BLOODSHED if they don’t “clean up islam”, will they have the force of will to do so, I’m afraid. Hopefully, they can pull it off before that.

This is not to say that we should not be concerned with Islamic radicals, quite the opposite. We should be very concerned with them, and one way to fight against their hateful message is to not echo it.

[sign]“If a moslem hears me say that islam is inherently violent, and an evil system of “world slavery”, and “reacts badly” (violently), they show themselves to me to be part of the problem and not part of the solution.”[/sign]

The above statement is incorrect, and hateful, except for one change: Where you see “islam”, change it to “evil interpretation of islam”,… which makes the statement a call to action for both non-moslems and “moderate moslems” alike.

(alright, I’…

 

[boog123]

I think your knowledge of Sharia Law, dhimmitude, and what most Moslems think about those topics is lacking.

Have you ever read the Quran, or any hadith? Ever hear of the pact of Umar?

your right, compared to u i’m a novice, but even if i was an islamic historian, i still would not care what they thought, especially if i was a catholic, the only reason i can see a catholic being interested in islam is if he or she was thinking of converting to islam, i doubt thats the case with people refering to muhammed as a statutory rapist, god will deal with him and his sins, just as he will deal with anyone else commiting sin.
it just makes me wonder what a islam hater would think he would get out of asking questions to muslims when he knows that that muslims knows that muhammed had sex with a 9 year old and still decided to become or continue to follow the muslim faith.

 

[boog123]

I DON’T say they are wrong. I say their opinion doesn’t matter.

If the “moderates” don’t realize that their religion is easily interpretable as justification for evil, then they DON’T know their religion very well, and NEED to be informed of that.

I very definately DO cheer on “moderate moslems” to combat the “jihadis”. The problem is that they don’t do it, because it’s “difficult”, and those who do do it are persecuted into simply becoming “fertile ground” for the growth of the jihad.

do u combat against white supremecists and anti semetic christian groups as a moderate christian?

 

[Montalban]

Did you change your profile? I was pretty sure the other day it said you were Christian.

He’s changed it now. He’s not put “Muslim” yet

 

[Montalban]

do u combat against white supremecists and anti semetic christian groups as a moderate christian?

On this forum, I do. But then who are you to call everyone to account?

Do you combat people advocating suicide bombers?

 

[boog123]

He’s changed it now. He’s not put “Muslim” yet

nice diversion

 

[boog123]

On this forum, I do. But then who are you to call everyone to account?

Do you combat people advocating suicide bombers?

only on this forum huh
not me Jesus calls u to account
yes, i beleieve suicide bombers are wrong, i dislike them because there suicide bombers, not because there muslims who are suicide bombers

 

[TOP]

Islamophobia. Isn’t that an album by The Who?

 

[roman6320]

Who cares? It’s as irrelevant as whether they had red hair or not UNLESS you can draw a causal link between the teachings of Jesus, the history of Christian thought, and their actions

It is VERY relevant. what many in this post are doing to Islam Voltaire, Diderot and co. did to Christianity enabling secular society to grow… Yeah , yeah I know, there is a difference between what people did against the teachings of Christ and what people did according to the alledged the teachings of Mohammed.
But the point I am trying to make is that ANY religion can be violent if it gets political and tries to rule the state. Any criticism of Islam should be made in this light. We should avoid making immature statements like"Islam is a violent religion" that make Catholics look a christian version of Jihadists that would bring back the inquisition if possible.
Does Islam have inherent weaknesses that make it possible for extremists to espouse violence with no recognized authority to condemn it? Absolutely.
I have never said that Islam is a peaceful religion. But I won’t go the opposite extreme and say it is intrinsically violent either. It is up to the muslim community to decide which way to interpret it. What we should do is be on our guard while avoiding extreme statements.

 

[Montalban]

It is VERY relevant. what many in this post are doing to Islam Voltaire, Diderot and co. did to Christianity enabling secular society to grow… Yeah , yeah I know, there is a difference between what people did against the teachings of Christ and what people did according to the alledged the teachings of Mohammed.
But the point I am trying to make is that ANY religion can be violent if it gets political and tries to rule the state. Any criticism of Islam should be made in this light. We should avoid making immature statements like"Islam is a violent religion" that make Catholics look a christian version of Jihadists that would bring back the inquisition if possible.
Does Islam have inherent weaknesses that make it possible for extremists to espouse violence with no recognized authority to condemn it? Absolutely.
I have never said that Islam is a peaceful religion. But I won’t go the opposite extreme and say it is intrinsically violent either. It is up to the muslim community to decide which way to interpret it. What we should do is be on our guard while avoiding extreme statements.

No, you point has not been made.

Islam is violent from it’s inception. Muhammed ordered attacks on his enemies. He over-saw the execution of PoWs. He applauded murder of his enemies, including a woman who simply wrote witty songs paradoying him.

Christianity is not violent in its essence.

The stance you make “anyone can make a religion violent” is a truism.

The example of Muhammed is the very one Moslems look to - as he’s they’re ideal type. If you want to call that a ‘weakness’ that itself acknowledges a problem for Islam.

It is indeed up to them to interpret this, and that’s what they do! They blow people up, or statues of Buddha. They think it’s okay to marry a child. To lie or deceive for the increase of their faith.

I’ve absolutely no idea why you bring Voltaire into this. A point that’s known only unto you.

Until you find some causal links between Jesus and violence done by Christians you have not made a point.

 

[Montalban]

Islamophobia. Isn’t that an album by The Who?

Reminds me of when I tell people I’ve got a Police record!

 

[Montalban]

only on this forum huh

See below regarding suicide bombers

not me Jesus calls u to account

I didn’t realise you spoke for him!

yes, i beleieve suicide bombers are wrong, i dislike them because there suicide bombers, not because there muslims who are suicide bombers

And that misses the point that you don’t advocate against them anywhere. That’s a distinct lack of introspection on your part; making it ironic when you’re taking to task others for ‘judging others’ ROFL

 

[Montalban]

nice diversion

Not a diversion, as it was directed to someone else.* And note, I’m still dealing with all your other posts. But I think I’ve touched a nerve here!

• • It would be a diversion if I challenged you directly on this thread to defend yourself about another issue, in this case your faith.

 

[Montalban]

I think your knowledge of Sharia Law, dhimmitude, and what most Moslems think about those topics is lacking.

Have you ever read the Quran, or any hadith? Ever hear of the pact of Umar?

Some people don’t appear to be wishing to discuss facts. They simply turn discussions on Islam into demands of others to defend Christianity.

That’s a diversion, which ironically boog123 falsely accuses me of.

Ah for a little bit of introspection

 

[boog123]

No, you point has not been made.

Islam is violent from it’s inception. Muhammed ordered attacks on his enemies. He over-saw the execution of PoWs. He applauded murder of his enemies, including a woman who simply wrote witty songs paradoying him.

and what do u hope to gain by posting this,
i can tell u now that it won’t hurt Islam in anyway, because people having been bashing them since their start.
a story can come out tomorrow where Muhammad had sex with a 6 year old and it would not change a thing.

 

[roman6320]

So as to be clear, let me attempt to summarize your two posts. If at any point, you feel that I have misrepresented what you said or meant, please correct me, when passions are aroused and the only way to express them is by typing words anomalously, it can be easy to misunderstand one another.

Basically, while you agree that all of the above passages from the Qur’an could be seen as a call to peace and tolerance, you argue that it is also quite possible to see them as justifying violence, at least tacitly, if not overtly when analyzed with other passages that are more obvious in their call to violence and intolerance (take not Jews and Christians to be friends, etc, etc) You then go on to say, that it is these people who see the above passages, along with others mentioned in this thread, as a call to spread the Islamic faith through violence and conquest, that we should be concerned with. I hope that this is a fair representation of your position.

Let me be clear on my position. Those individuals who find justification for murder and intolerance in the Qur’an (al-Qaeda types and any others who would commit violence in the name of Allah) should be fought against tooth and nail. If possible, help them to change their way of thinking. If not, deal with them appropriately (capture them if possible, kill them if absolutely necessary–though I would still grieve for the loss of human life, no matter how despicable a human he/she was).

However, I’m fairly certain everyone on this thread would agree that violent extremist Muslims need to be fought. The issue that seems to be under debate here, is whether moderate and peaceful Muslims can rightly claim that theirs is a religion of peace hijacked by radical extremists. These moderate Muslims would point to the above passages from the Qur’an as evidence that violence and intolerance has no place within their faith. I believe they would consider extremist interpretations of the Qur’an just what you labeled them: “sociopathic interpretations of Islam.” From what I have read, many of these moderate Muslims would go on to say that those passages in the Qur’an that advocate violence or intolerance were meant for a certain time in history and that they are no longer applicable today. Why should we say that they are wrong? Who are we to tell these moderates, who we should be cheering on, that they don’t know their own faith? These moderates need our support in their struggle against the extremists in their own religion. By saying that Islam is inherently violent, we validate the extremist position and undercut those Muslims who argue for peace and tolerance. This is not to say that we should not be concerned with Islamic radicals, quite the opposite. We should be very concerned with them, and one way to fight against their hateful message is to not echo it.

(alright, I’m getting close to the word limit, I’ll continue in another post.)

Well well, someone who agrees with my position. I was beggining to worry. Of course you have expressed it much better than I did.

 

[abu_kamoon]

“Certainly, however a number of people want to deny that Islam is our enemy. It is; it’s opposed to Christ”

So are you saying that Judiaism is our enemy? They are opposed to Christ?

Personally, I don’t consider a person an enemy because he or she disagrees with me.

 

[boog123]

Not a diversion, as it was directed to someone else.* And note, I’m still dealing with all your other posts. But I think I’ve touched a nerve here!

• • It would be a diversion if I challenged you directly on this thread to defend yourself about another issue, in this case your faith.

it would have been better if u did challenge me directly rather than indirectly, yes, i agree

 

[boog123]

Some people don’t appear to be wishing to discuss facts. They simply turn discussions on Islam into demands of others to defend Christianity.

That’s a diversion, which ironically boog123 falsely accuses me of.

Ah for a little bit of introspection

indirectly again, wow.
the fact is you hate islam
and judging from your other posts (yes again i judge) in other topics that seem to be all about islam, it’s just scary that this is coming from a catholic