I'm sick of the rabid Islamophobia on these boards...

[cavanlass]

Excellent, excellent post, TobyLu. This letter should be sent to every single person!

 

[nonsumd]

Y’know, this would be an entirely new thread, but “moderate” and “extremist” sound like media jargon to me, just like the word “islamophobia”. I haven’t seen any evidence that Muslims perceive themselves in any such way within Islamic circles, only when it’s time to provide a soundbite for the evening news programme or the chat show for the consumption of non-Muslims.

My main experience with Islam is living in Indonesia, a country which has more Muslims than there are in all the Arab countries combined. Muslims there certainly make contrasts between “moderate” and “extremist” Islam and the majority do not consider the “extremist” version to be anything but a perversion of “true Islam.”

Our media reports to us all the time about Muslims all over the world (e.g. in Turkey or in Iran) who do not share the views of the extremists. You may not be willing to call such anti-extremists “true Muslims,” but the extremists are even more unwilling to recognize them as such. If you want to agree with the extremists, be my guest.

Even less is there an indication that those adjectives can be legitimately used to describe the interpretations of the Quran and the hadith which permit or incite to violence against non-Muslims and apostates.

Why not? Muslims do not have a single method to reading the Qur’an anymore than Christians have of reading the Bible.

There are many Christians who read the book of Revelation as if it were today’s newspaper and form their foreign policy stances accordingly. There are Muslims who read the Qur’anic passages about warfare with non-Muslims as instructions applying to specific historical situations, not as injunctions for all time.

What is an “extremist” interpretation? One that permits a Muslim to use violence to force conversion, punish apostasy, attack non-believers, etc.? But how is that extremism, when there are entire schools of legal thought in Islam, with no small number of followers, which support that interpretation and put it into practice?

In an objective sense, such thinking is extremism if is selective in its reading of Scripture. The majority of Muslims balance verses that can be read to command violence with verses the can be read to forbid violence and command compassion (as I have said, I do think that Muslims who totally reject any interpretation of “jihad” as “armed struggle for the faith” are a minority, just as strict pacifists are a small minority among Christians).

Under circumstances such as today’s where many Muslim societies see themselves (and very often objectively are) under attack, we can expect that Muslims will focus on the “armed struggle” meaning of “jihad,” rather than ignore it as they might in more secure times).

As others have pointed out, a significant portion of the Islamic population appears to enjoy playing the role of the infuriated, aggrieved victim.

I don’t disagree, but they would not be able to whine like that nor would other Muslims tolerate them doing so if there was absoltely no reality of Muslims suffering oppression or aggression from non-Muslims.

I would remind non-Muslims of this just as I would remind Muslims that in many cases Muslims have been and are oppressors and aggressors as well.

(cont.)

 

[nonsumd]

(cont.)

I don’t like it when Muslim posters on these forums say that we are wrong, that our Scriptures have been contaminated, that we’ve distorted God’s revelation, are blaspheming when we attribute divinity to Christ etc., etc., but I’ve got better things to do than go stomping around the streets in an infantile rage demanding that Muslims be punished for blaspheming and insulting Jesus.

I don’t like such fanaticism either. It’s pathetic how childish fanatics can be, Muslim or non-Muslim.

Hmmm … lots of meat here. Let’s just try to cut to the bone … violent fundamentalism is by no means a recent phenomena in Islam, rather it is recurring theme every time some group or another decides that the ummah have drifted away from the purity of Quranic teaching, or have been contaminated by contact with the kaffir. The Wahhabis are really just the latest in a long line of fanatical “purifiers” of Islam. It’s actually a permanent, monotonous theme in the religion. The Almoravids and the Almohads are just two of examples of this, along with everybody’s favourite party guests, the Taliban.

Again, I don’t entirely disagree, and Muslims need to be reminded about the dangers of Islamic fundamentalism just as Christians need to be reminded of the dangers of Christian fundamentalism, and Jews of Jewish fundamentalism, and Hindus of their version, and Buddhists (yes, Buddhists) of theirs (in Thailand, Buddhist monks and nuns recently rallied to demand that Buddhism be made the official religion of Thailand and, though this is not quite on topic, Buddhist sects fully backed Japan’s war effort) .

But even if we allow that the Wahhabi’s represent some kind of a break with the predominant orientation in Islamic history, then we still have a problem in that it is the Wahhabis who, funded by the Saudi Arabian government, are busily founding Quranic schools around the world, including in Western nations and that their interpretation is therefore the one in which young, Muslim men are schooled when they go off to become imans, the preachers in mosques. So, Wahhabist Islamic theology is the dominant theological school in Islam at the moment. I don’t think the Wahhabists are therefore such a minority.

I would venture that the great majority of Muslims who reject Wahhabism would not agree with you that Wahhabism, a strictly Sunni phenomenon by the way (the Shi’a have their own version of extremism), is the “dominant theological school in Islam at the moment.” The “best funded,” apparently, but far from the “dominant” one.

Just because the Western media focuses on madrasahs that teach Wahhabism does not mean that for every one that does there are at least five that do not. And I would doubt the majority of Muslims even attend madrasahs of any kind. That’s a question I need to look into.

If we wish to win allies among non-Wahhabi Muslims, I see no point in telling them, “The Wahhabis are right, you are not true Muslims.”

 

[abu_kamoon]

The hatred against Muslims has been created by our politicians and mainstream media. There are over a billion Muslims in the world. What percentage do you think are involved in terrorism?

Look at the major wars of the Twentieth Century. I am referring to World Wars One and Two, Korea, and Viet Nam. Not much Muslim involvement, I’d say.

Political science professor emeritus Rudolph Rummel, from the University of Hawaii, wrote a book in 1994 intitled DEATH BY GOVERNMENT. Professor Rummel determined that there were some 38 milliion battle deaths in the Twentieth Century. At least 170 million people were killed by their own governments during this period for various ethnic, racial, tribal or political reasons. Another fact, of the 60 million deaths during World War Two, only 16 million involved combatants.

Statistically, you have a much better chance of being killed by your own government, than being killed in a war, let alone by “Muslim” terrorists.

The threat of terrorism, specifically from Islamic groups is being used to create a police state here in the US. Many Americans are welcoming the idea of politicians spying on them, searches without warrants, detaining individuals indefinitely without charges, secret trials and torture. I really think the Islamic fears pale in comparison to what is going on right now in this country.

You can read about Professor Rummel at this website:

fee.org/publications/the-freeman/article.asp?aid=4936

 

[TobyLue]

I don’t like it when Muslim posters on these forums say that we are wrong, that our Scriptures have been contaminated, that we’ve distorted God’s revelation , are blaspheming when we attribute divinity to Christ etc., etc.,

This is full-a-hooey. What came first, the Bible or the Koran? God’s revelations had already been reveal long before Mohammed was even born. I have heard some Muslims say that the Bible contradicts the Koran. Sorry, bud, it’s the other way around. The Koran contradicts the Bible. First came Tradition. If anything that was written down, that was not taught by the Church, it was not included in the Bible. Any contradiction was rejected. After the Canon was established, anything written that differed from the Bible was rejected. The Koran differs from the Bible so thus it has to be rejected.

This is like saying that William Shakespeare wrote down “To be or not to be”. Then 100 years later comes Joe Schmuck and says. That is not correct. You have corrupted the writings of Shakespeare. It should be “To is, is not to is”. I, Joe Schmuck, have the true writings of Shakespeare. So to say that the Christian Scriptures have distorted God’s revelation is, in two words, “Bull Onie”

 

[Montalban]

The hatred against Muslims has been created by our politicians and mainstream media. There are over a billion Muslims in the world. What percentage do you think are involved in terrorism?

What percentage of Nazis were actually involved in killing Jews?

 

[Montalban]

Since a number of you are accusing me of being an “apologist for Islam,”

I’d be one of those. When you try to claim that the terrorism in Islam is a reaction to attacks from the West that is to ignore history - something you’ve not addressed as the ‘west’ didn’t exist when Islam began its run of terror.

 

[Moneo]

---

This is full-a-hooey. What came first, the Bible or the Koran? God’s revelations had already been reveal long before Mohammed was even born. I have heard some Muslims say that the Bible contradicts the Koran. Sorry, bud, it’s the other way around. The Koran contradicts the Bible. First came Tradition. If anything that was written down, that was not taught by the Church, it was not included in the Bible. Any contradiction was rejected. After the Canon was established, anything written that differed from the Bible was rejected. The Koran differs from the Bible so thus it has to be rejected.

This is like saying that William Shakespeare wrote down “To be or not to be”. Then 100 years later comes Joe Schmuck and says. That is not correct. You have corrupted the writings of Shakespeare. It should be “To is, is not to is”. I, Joe Schmuck, have the true writings of Shakespeare. So to say that the Christian Scriptures have distorted God’s revelation is, in two words, “Bull Onie”

:doh2: Don’t skim the posts, Toby, READ them. I didn’t say anything like what you attribute to my post. In fact, what I said was:

This may be so in some cases (a reference to nonsumd’s assertion that many posters begin from the premise that Islam is completely evil, to which I replied … ). I start from the premise that it is a false religion, and that whatever truth it may possess was lifted wholesale from Judaism and Christianity. If that infuriates them, tough. As others have pointed out, a significant portion of the Islamic population appears to enjoy playing the role of the infuriated, aggrieved victim. I don’t like it when Muslim posters on these forums say that we are wrong, that our Scriptures have been contaminated, that we’ve distorted God’s revelation, are blaspheming when we attribute divinity to Christ etc., etc., but I’ve got better things to do than go stomping around the streets in an infantile rage demanding that Muslims be punished for blaspheming and insulting Jesus.

… which DOES NOT MEAN that I believe, or accept, OR GIVE ANY CREDENCE whatsoever to their claims. Quite the contrary, it means that I REJECT THEM, while at the same time, UNLIKE THEM, DON’T FEEL THE NEED TO DEMAND RETRIBUTION when they “insult” my faith.

Now, don’t you feel dopey?

 

[Montalban]

Now, don’t you feel dopey?

Like Snow White?

 

[Moneo]

nonsumd,

I will get around to replying to your posts tomorrow. Believe it or not, I am enjoying the conversation with you, but it is late here and I’m half a bottle of wine beyond the point where I can muster the concentration for an extended response to the points you’ve raised (it’s been a lovely evening with great friends …) and I’ve got to get up a bit early tomorrow, so … I’ll re-read and respond to your posts tomorrow.

So, GOD BLESS and say a prayer for me at Mass tomorrow please.

 

[Moneo]

Like Snow White?

 

[TobyLue]

Moneo

No I do not feel dopey…… now, ** you** read my post again. I never made the assertion that you believe the same as the Muslims. I was just adding to your post. You insinuate that I was attacking you, which I wasn’t. I was making a comment regarding what Muslims say “ … that our Scriptures have been contaminated, that we’ve distorted God’s revelation, are blaspheming when we attribute divinity to Christ etc., etc.,”

Now dont you feel, ahh never mind I won’t lower myself to name calling.

 

[Moneo]

Moneo

No I do not feel dopey…… now, ** you** read my post again. I never made the assertion that you believe the same as the Muslims. I was just adding to your post. You insinuate that I was attacking you, which I wasn’t. I was making a comment regarding what Muslims say “ … that our Scriptures have been contaminated, that we’ve distorted God’s revelation, are blaspheming when we attribute divinity to Christ etc., etc.,”

Now dont you feel, ahh never mind I won’t lower myself to name calling.

Ooooops. Okay, on re-reading it, I can see my error, although without a qualifying statement such as “I agree” or something at the beginning, “This is full a hooey …” did sound like you were taking issue with what I wrote rather than the Islamic claim, so-o …

Okay, I’m the dope. Du-u-uhhh. Please accept my apologies.

 

[cyberjacques]

I’ve been trying to say this since 9-11, but you worry me. I wish you didn’t. I wish when I walked down the streets of this country that I love, that your color and culture still blended with the beautiful human landscape we enjoy in this country. But you don’t blend in anymore. I notice you, and it worries me.
I notice you because I can’t help it anymore. People from your homelands, professing to be Muslims, have been attacking and killing my fellow citizens and our friends for more than 20 years now. I don’t fully understand their grievances and hate, but I know that nothing can justify the inhumanity of their attacks.

On September 11, nineteen ARAB-MUSLIMS hijacked four jetliners in my country. They cut the throats of women in front of children and brutally stabbed to death others. They took control of those planes and crashed them into buildings killing thousands of proud fathers, loving sons, wise grandparents, elegant daughters, best friends, favorite coaches, fearless public servants, and children’s mothers.
The Palestinians celebrated, the Iraqis were overjoyed, as was most of the Arab world. So, I notice you now. I don’t want to be worried. I don’t want to be consumed by the same rage and hate and prejudice that has destroyed the soul of these terrorists. But, I need your help. As a rational American, trying to protect my country and family in an irrational and unsafe world, I must know how to tell the difference between you, and the Arab/Muslim terrorist.

How do I differentiate between the true Arab/Muslim-Americans and the Arab/Muslim terrorists in our communities who are attending our schools, enjoying our parks, and living in OUR communities under the protection of OUR constitution, while they plot the next attack that will slaughter these same good neighbors and children?
The events of September 11th changed the answer. It is not my responsibility to determine which of you embraces our great country, with ALL of its religions, with ALL of its different citizens, with all of its faults. It is time for every Arab/Muslim in this country to determine it for me.

I want to know, I demand to know, and I have a right to know, whether or not you love America. Do you pledge allegiance to its flag? Do you proudly display it in front of your house, or on your car? Do you pray in your many daily prayers that Allah will bless this nation, that He will protect and prosper it? Or, do you pray that Allah with destroy it in one of your Jihads? Are you thankful for the freedom that only this nation affords? A freedom that was paid for by the blood of hundreds of thousands of patriots who gave their lives for this country? Are you willing to preserve this freedom by also paying the ultimate sacrifice? Do you love America? If this is your commitment, then I need YOU to start letting ME know
about it.
Your Muslim leaders in this nation should be flooding the media at this time with hard facts on your faith, and what hard actions you are taking as a community and as a religion to protect the United States of America.

Please, no more benign overtures of regret for the death of the innocent, because I worry about who you regard as innocent. No more benign overtures of condemnation for the unprovoked attacks, because I worry about what is unprovoked to you I am not interested in any more sympathy. I am interested only in action. What will you do for America - our great country - at this time of crisis, at this time of war?
I want to see Arab-Muslims waving the AMERICAN flag in the streets. I want to hear you chanting “Allah Bless America.” I want to see young Arab/Muslim men enlisting in the military. I want to see a commitment of money, time, and emotion to the victims of this butchering and to this nation as a whole.
–contd…

Well said Sir! I wish I had included some of this in my last post/rant. You are correct in saying that the burden of proof for insisting that Islam is the Religion of Peace definitely lies on those who claim to follow it. So many Muslims want us to believe it, so we should insist that they show us.

 

[Sixtus]

Rev North posted:

Originally Posted by RevDrNorth
Exactly…in America just because your sister went to work today or road home in a car with a man she is not married to we do not murder her. We do not chase your sister down and kill her because she refused to go through with an arranged marriage so she insulted our family. Because you decide to check out a Baptist Church your are not executed or beaten and imprisoned for the rest of your life. We don’t beat your mother for uncovering her face. All these elements are present in countries run by radical Islam. It is so niave and simplistic to suggest radical Islam does not pose a major threat to civil liberites and ideas we hold dear. This is what the Dutch confronted in the Netherlands with the murder of that producer or the violent and stupid reaction to that cartoon of the prophet Mohammed.

Again, that is why Benedicts statement was on target and a good appeal to moderate Muslims. I was so proud of the Holy Father for having the courage to say what he did. It was a refreshing change from the Politically Correct…“The terrorists just don’t know how to express their anger at the injustice of the West so they have to blow up innocent people”. There have been several reports from Britian of home grown radicalized youth who wish to harm or at least sympathize with the brutality of radical Islam. We have to address this issue through education and so on. That is NOT implying that your Muslim neighbor is going to blow you up.
Rev North

Great post Rev North. That sums if up very nicely and to the point.

We as Christians oppose any sort of violence against groups or individuals and would defend the weak and vulnerable whatever their denomination or religion but I think the reality of Islam is really scary. Rev North has echoed the very thoughts from my own heart.

It is of equal concern to the West that we do not practice genital mutilation of women which is actually forbidden in most Western countries, carrying a heavy penalty. Rightly so, any sort of mutilation is really sick, but this form is heinious. Is it any coincidence that the main proponents are also supportive of Islam

 

[Dempsey1919]

I don’t care if you’re sick of it. People need to know the truth that Islam is an evil, hateful religion that is an affront to God.

I know what this religion teaches, I have read the Qu’ran and read the Hadith. I have watched documentaries and read Islamic apologetic sites.

Islam denies the divinity of Jesus. Islam teaches that Jesus will return and break the cross.

Islam claims that the Bible was corrupted by Christians.

Within Islam, there is no separation of Church and State; they are one and the same. Anyone who is not Muslim is in the ‘house of war’.

The Qu’ran instructs Muslims to kill the non-believers and force them to pay a tax or Jizya.

Bibles and Christian artefacts are banned in Islamic countries.

The whole religion of Islam is offensive to Christianity.

Islam is an offense to God. The world would have been better off if this evil religion had never been invented.

The Western world needs to realise that Islam is a great threat to our civilisation. Islam will overtake Christianity in the future.

Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. All of the other religions are false; they may contain elements of the truth, but ultimately they are false. Outside of the Church, there is no salvation.

 

[OneAugustKnight]

Not just on Non-Catholic Religions, but what feels like every single board people are saying how all muslims are violent people who want to take over the world. Get a freaking grip. Everyone should just admit right here they hardly know anything about Islam apart from what they hear on the news about the latest body count from the Middle East. There are muslim terrorists and there is brutal sectarianism. Christians too have done these things in the past. Does that justify it? No but it should tell you something: that there are good and bad people of all faiths. Do you not know that there are many Muslims who despise all of this stuff? Probably not, most of you guys would likely rank them along with Santa Claus and Bigfoot.

Well, I do like Muslims, in fact I am married to one. So I guess I am not Muslimophobic.

Islamophobic? Yeah, I do have a strong aversion for the ideology of Islam. I dislike what they say about God the Father and about Jesus and I don’t like the absence of mercy and forgiveness. It’s no different than my aversion for other heresies and oppressive political ideologies.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with hating an ideology as long as you can continue to love people who hold it to be true.

 

[RevDrNorth]

Islamophobia…fatphobia…homophobia…
Transfatphobia…saggingjeansphobia…Vicksphobia…
Bushphobia…I am getting phobic about all the trendy things we are supposed to hate people disliking.

Rev North

 

[Wolseley]

By the way, please kindly quote the source that Jesus asked his not so brave deciples to sell their clothes and buy swords. That is new to me.

"And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough."

Luke 22:35-38.

 

[Wolseley]

I don’t care if you’re sick of it. People need to know the truth that Islam is an evil, hateful religion that is an affront to God.

I know what this religion teaches, I have read the Qu’ran and read the Hadith. I have watched documentaries and read Islamic apologetic sites.

Islam denies the divinity of Jesus. Islam teaches that Jesus will return and break the cross.

Islam claims that the Bible was corrupted by Christians.

Within Islam, there is no separation of Church and State; they are one and the same. Anyone who is not Muslim is in the ‘house of war’.

The Qu’ran instructs Muslims to kill the non-believers and force them to pay a tax or Jizya.

Bibles and Christian artefacts are banned in Islamic countries.

The whole religion of Islam is offensive to Christianity.

Islam is an offense to God. The world would have been better off if this evil religion had never been invented.

The Western world needs to realise that Islam is a great threat to our civilisation. Islam will overtake Christianity in the future.

Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. All of the other religions are false; they may contain elements of the truth, but ultimately they are false. Outside of the Church, there is no salvation.

Good luck, friend. Even now, the liberals are saying that we should just give up and give in to militant Islam, and hope for the “best”:

amnation.com/vfr/archives/008652.html

amnation.com/vfr/archives/008652.html

amnation.com/vfr/archives/007143.html

samharris.org/site/full_text/the-end-of-liberalism/