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JackieMom
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Yes, I know. I do not believe NFP is sinful at all. What I am asking the OP is - if they think periodic abstinence IS a sin, then what should couples who do not desire pregnancy do?
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EasterJoy
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Let’s get back to your understanding of infallible teachings.
Did you know that Pius IX solemnly proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in 1954? Do you think that before 1954, this doctrine was not every bit as true as it was after 1954? No, rather before that it had not been declared something that the faithful were bound to believe as a theological doctrine. It did not by any means mean that perhaps the Church was wrong to be teaching the doctrine at all before 1954 or that those who did believe it were wrong.
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oldfashcathgirl
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In no way was I saying that sisters, brothers, monks, nuns, or priests are denying souls their entrance into heaven. They were not called into the Sacrament of marriage to another person. In a marriage the couple should so desire to recieve any blessings of children God would send. They are called to be fruitful in their ministry in being spiritual mother and fathers to all of us, guiding us to holiness. They have such a great task!
“serious reasons” are serious only to our human minds. God has healing power and if we trust Him things won’t be so serious to us. Don’t get me wrong some peopel cannot in their current state recieve children but I also think GOD (who is all- knowing and Creator) can and would not give children where He knows his daughter or son could not recieve the baby because of the circumstances.
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jwinch2
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jwinch2
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If creation was perfectly aligned with God’s will, you might be correct. However, it is not. Sin exists and the world is in a fallen state. God expects us to use our reason and intellect, which he gave us, along with our consciences, which need to be properly formed, to determine prudence and what is or is not a serious reason for delaying pregnancy. God expects us to understand that our actions have consequences.
Every single day in the world, approximately 16,000 children die of starvation/hunger related issues. This comes out to 1 child every 5 seconds. The claim that God only allows conception to occur when parents are capable of receiving a child is very disturbing in the magnitude in which it ignores the reality of the world in which we are living.
Thankfully, the Church, who the last time I checked speaks for Christ and has been given the authority to bind and loose on Earth and in Heaven, has instructed us in this matter.
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AngelEyes4Jesus
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I am not sure where you learned this but this is very wrong. I am pregnant with my 6th baby and all have been delivered by c section. there is no limit. It is a case by case sitiation and the DR can make suggestions but u wouls not be wandering around looking for a hospital w no prenatal care…at least not here in the USA. I dunno what country u are from. My 1st c section was emergency. I ahve had 4 others that were sched and have been completed smoothly. the DR is always amazed at how nicely I have healed after each one. Everyone heals differently so theres no saying how many c sections u could have, but DR certainly cant force u into haveing only 2-3 children n certainly cant refuse u care! I have swtiched DR 3x including moving out of state, so its not a matter of me just finding a DR that I was lucky enough that would keep me as a patient. I really urge u to do more research…I used to think that you probably ought to just have however many kids and leave it up to God and didn’t bother with NFP. My first child was an emergency C-Section. Now I am learning that there are only a limited number of C-sections a doctor will let you have in our country. I have to wait until my son is at least one year old to get pregnant again otherwise I will not be able to have a VBAC. If I have another C-section my family size is in danger. After 3 or 4 C-sections OB’s will not accept you as a patient for liability reasons. You would have to just wander in to a hospital in labor and make them deal with your “emergency.” So yeah, if I want to have that big Catholic family, I will need to space them right and THANK GOD FOR NFP!
I used to see why some people would reject it and leave everything up to God. Now I see that you have just as much spiritual responsibility to abstain from sex as a married person at times.
I didn’t read the whole thread. Sorry if anyone said something similar.
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PaulinVA
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Jwinch answered this post about how it is wrong in the real world - thousands of children die every day from disease and starvation.
But, let’s look at the underlying theological idea. God does not give children, nor do couples receive children from God. God created us, and created the biology that is the human reproductive system in men and women.
When a woman is fertile, and has relations, if sperm meets egg and the egg implants, we have a baby. It’s the way we were created to work. Yes, it is a miracle, but the biology works the way the biology works. God does not intervene in every conception.
That’s why there are babies created in situations that in no way would be considered good, such as incest, rape, drought, famine or whatever. The biology worked and the mother and father, whether on purpose or not, were co-creators with God of a new life.
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JackieMom
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Hmmm… I don’t think that’s how it works, at all. Of course, I’ve never been one to chalk up everything that happens to being “God’s will.”
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JackieMom
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It’s super that your uterus has healed nicely. Not everyone is so fortunate. If your doctor suggested that your uterus was not holding up well, would you keep trying for more babies?
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JackieMom
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No, no, no. God only gives those mothers what they can handle - and apparently they can handle a personal cemetery full of starved babies and empty arms and a heart so broken that even breathing is painful. Don’tcha know it’s just God’s plan for those couples? God’s will? It’s their duty to be open to life, even when the likelyhood of those lives being cut short by starvation, warfare, AIDS or malaria is almost 100%! Remember, it’s only a big deal in our human minds!
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camerong
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Well, to some extent, we have to second-guess our doctors who are not faithfully Catholic, many of whom impose their values and don’t think we OUGHT to have more than a couple of children. For many of these doctors, any increased risk of harm is enough to recommend against future births or c-sections. Now, certainly, if a woman has a faithful Catholic OB who advises no more pregnancies–and presumably would do so with a very heavy heart, knowing the significance of this advice on a marriage which in general should be open to life–then naturally that advice is appropriate and should be followed. It’s important to note that doctors frequently suggest sterilization in the face of minor problems or no problems at all, in part because most doctors simply disagree that additional children mean additional blessings. A similar situation goes for women having vaginal births after C-sections–some doctors say this is dangerous, others do it every day. I strongly suspect ideologies may have an impact on advice in some of these situations. At least, Catholic mothers ought to obtain second opinions in these situations.
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camerong
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What is missing from this discussion is prayerful discernment of additional children, which is an integral part of NFP. I firmly believe that a couple who prayerfully discerns that they should have additional children will be given the appropriate blessings and grace for whatever God gives them.
But notice I say APPROPRIATE blessings. God does NOT provide for all children exactly as we might wish–children suffer and die every day, all over the world. Does this mean that the child was not God’s will because she was only born to have suffered and died? No. We have to recognize that God’s will encompasses factors we cannot comprehend. Many parents of severely developmentally-challenged children come to the realization that their children’s disabilities were God’s will–not because God wanted to see a child suffer, but because wanted to give us opportunities to grow in our love for each other and for Him. This is no way diminishes the challenges, nor is this an easy perspective to reach, but if we believe in a loving God, than this is the necessary conclusion.
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lizaanne
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I happen to agree with you 100% on this, but I don’t go there here on CAF because you will most probably be roasted alive for this opinion. But just know that you are NOT alone in thinking this - I know many very good and holy people who feel the very same way.
~Liza
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JackieMom
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I think this is a very negative, cynical way to look at men and women who have dedicated their careers and so much of their time to ensuring mother and babies get healthy starts in life. In my experience, doctors call it how they see it and let the patiwnt ultimately decide what to do. It certainly doesn’t take super special Catholic eyeballs to see that a woman’s uterus is thinning or full of scar tissue.
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JackieMom
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It is not God’s will that any child suffer or die prematurely. Faulty biology, chance and human nature account for that suffering - not God. The idea that anyone’s child dying is “God’s will” is appalling.
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Rence
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I think you inadvertantly made her point without meaning to do so. When you say " the DR is always amazed at how nicely I have healed after each one. Everyone heals differently", it points to the fact that you are in the minority. Also, a doctor CAN refuse you care if the doctor feels strongly you have put yourself in a dangerous situation in which they have to fix, after having told you what your actions would do. A hospital and their healthcare team CAN’T refuse one care in an emergency situation. However, a doctor can dismiss a patient from their practice, or can refuse to admit a new patient to their practice. The liability insurance has gone up so drastically for OB-GYNs that that many have leaned towards being prudent about being responsibile for women who continue to have children after their doctors have told them they are especially high risk for various reasons. That’s precisely why they not have doctors who specialize in high risk pregnancies, and why some of the bigger hospitals have high risk pregnancy units. Both of you have to do your research: You to learn more about the above; and she needs to learn more about high risk pregnancy healthcare providers. They’re out there, you might have to drive further, and it may cost more. But I personally wouldn’t want to need a high pregnancy healthcare provider on purpose. Just sayin…so I agree with her efforts to use NFP to avoid rather than put herself knowingly at risk.
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JackieMom
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I think you are confused about the term “open to life.” Using NFP is “open to life” per the Catholic Church. Even using it in it’s most restrictive fahion is “open to life.” “Open to life” does not mean we attempt to achieve pregnancy at every opportunity.
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Rence
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I think that people who claim “God only gives us what we can handle” have forgotten that original sin created a fallen world. God isn’t a mean little kid with a magnifying glass over an ant hill. Nor is He a puppet master pulling the strings. He may allow things to happen, but it’s not His Will or wish to have everything bad that’s ever happen come true. Our ability to think and reason is a gift he gave us. Otherwise, we’d be breeding endlessly like animals. Even as their stewards, we prevent animals (who don’t know any better) from breeding themselves to death.
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AngelEyes4Jesus
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my post was meant to tell her not to follow blindly any rumors she may have heard. I also was told by friends and family that once a c section always a c section and 2 -3 max. I encourage her to do her own research. I also stated that its a csase by case situation. some woman can have only 1 or 2. I am on my 6th and a woman i know has had 9! I think it all depends on our body’s and God’s will.
To answer ur Q…I dont try to have any children. hubby and I have left our family size up to God for the same reason the OP stated. Before becoming Catholic I used BC and became preg with my son. whilst using NFP I became preg with number 4. at that point we came to realize perhaps God was telling up something and we should trust him to choose our family size. that is how we see it and prayerfully discern it monthly.
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Rence
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I think that people who claim “God only gives us what we can handle” have forgotten that original sin created a fallen world. God isn’t a mean little kid with a magnifying glass over an ant hill. Nor is He a puppet master pulling the strings. He may allow things to happen, but it’s not His Will or wish to have everything bad that’s ever happen come true. Our ability to think and reason is a gift he gave us. Otherwise, we’d be breeding endlessly like animals. Even as their stewards, we prevent animals (who don’t know any better) from breeding themselves to death.
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