I'm starting to believe NFP is sinful

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Here is what Pius XII had to say about NFP:

“Consequently to embrace the state of matrimony, to use continually the faculty proper to it, and in it alone, and on the other hand to withdraw always and deliberately, without a grave motive, from its primary duty, would be to sin against the very meaning of conjugal life”

"If, instead, husband and wife go further, that is, limiting the conjugal act exclusively to those [infertile] periods, then their conduct must be examined more closely.”

“On married couples, who make use of the specific act of their state, nature and the Creator impose the function of providing for the preservation of mankind. This is the characteristic service which gives rise to the peculiar value of their state, the bonum prolis. The individual and society, the people and the State, the Church itself, depend for their existence, in the order established by God, on fruitful marriages. Therefore, to embrace the matrimonial state, to use continually the faculty proper to such a state and lawful only therein, and, at the same time, to avoid its primary duty without a grave reason, would be a sin against the very nature of married life.”

“Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called ‘indications,’ may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life. From this it follows that the observance of the natural sterile periods may be lawful, from the moral viewpoint: and it is lawful in the conditions mentioned. If, however, according to a reasonable and equitable judgment, there are no such grave reasons either personal or deriving from exterior circumstances, the will to avoid the fecundity of their union, while continuing to satisfy to the full their sensuality, can only be the result of a false appreciation of life and of motives foreign to sound ethical principles.”

So yes, NFP is permissible for grave reasons only. My only point is that given the importance of procreation as the primary end of marriage, discerning whether grave reasons exist is something that should (note: not must) be discussed with a spiritual advisor, if we hope to avoid self-deception and self-delusion, which would be very easy when tempted by material considerations to avoid a new life.

Of course, anyone is free to reject this advice and make their own call, and I wish them well and hope they are not abusing this allowance of NFP.
 
I think this is a very negative, cynical way to look at men and women who have dedicated their careers and so much of their time to ensuring mother and babies get healthy starts in life. In my experience, doctors call it how they see it and let the patiwnt ultimately decide what to do. It certainly doesn’t take super special Catholic eyeballs to see that a woman’s uterus is thinning or full of scar tissue.
on the contrary, I agree 100% with what that poster was saying. I had a DR tell me i must tie my tubes d/t scar tissue and a second DR tell me I had no scar tissue. when i spoke in length w the original DR he told me he felt we were contributiong to the over population of the world! :eek: he had hidden his true reasonings under the guile of my scar tissue. Another OB told me i ought to go on BC because it would regulate me (I was not even irregular at this time) and that as a side effect would stop any more births but because it would be to regulate me it would fall under medical reasons and be OK w the church! I dont disagree w anyone using NFP to space births 'specially if it is due to space them out r/t c sections. i just wanted to throw out there that NOT all DRs have ur best interste in mind…either physical or spiritual. do research. pray. pray. pray. we are open to children now , however they may come and if they dont come at all. My c sections ahve healed better and better throught the grace of God. But as I said before, this isa very deeply personal and case by case scenario. 🙂
 
From the Catechism:
*2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality: *
*When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts, criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156 *
*2369 "By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man’s exalted vocation to parenthood."157 *
*2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159 *
*Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160 *

Also I would reccomend (if you can find it, because it is out of print) Contemporary Moral Theology, Marriage Questions by John C. Ford, SJ. It was written in the 1960’s and carried an imprimatur.
 
I happen to agree with you 100% on this, but I don’t go there here on CAF because you will most probably be roasted alive for this opinion. But just know that you are NOT alone in thinking this - I know many very good and holy people who feel the very same way.

~Liza
Many good and holy people disagree with the teachings of the Church on Faith and Morals?
 
Many good and holy people disagree with the teachings of the Church on Faith and Morals?
“Grave reasons” is not and has never been defined definitively by the Church. Given this significant issue, and that it is left to vast personal interpretation, I feel that the teaching cannot be understood or followed with any degree of surety by a layperson on their own.

I have not said that I disagree with the Church - I said that I agree with the quoted statement by the OP.

Do not assign words or intentions to me that I have not used.

~Liza
 
Gingerly,

I would like to encourage you to reflect a bit more on the post saying you may be having some Protestant-leanings, any tendency to ‘protest’ against the Church in some serious way (and I don’t mean ‘question’ you should always question and re-examine your faith, but protest as in sitting in judgement on and picking and choosing the teaching you will accept) is a form of protestantism - even the Sedevacantists…well meaning though they are. Pray about it and read the writings of the popes, if you can.

But I completely understand your struggle with the NFP culture in the Church, and I think I can see where it turns you off. If you’re anything like me, your primary issues with NFP are less with the couple using their awareness of the woman’s cycle to avoid pregnancy when necessary and to try for pregnancy when necessary, but with the ‘cult’ of NFP that sometimes developes within Catholic culture. We are so used to control, and we rely on that sense of control more than we should. We also have a tendency to expect a certain standard of living that is often incompatible with large families, and so NFP becomes something of a crutch for us as we strive to live ‘outside’ the norm and yet not so far outside as to be very uncomfortable…It is a permissable crutch, but I think there is the hope that because it is not morally problematic, but oftentimes (though sometimes I’m sure it is) a sign of perfect love and trust, and because it is very challenging, it will encourage couples to think less on controlling their fertility and more on opening themselves up to the blessing (because children are always a blessing) of more children. I think also that the language of NFP can often be a barrier, especially for those whose minds rebel against the over-sharing of other’s fertility signs…

I think, Gingerly, that if you can distance yourself from the aggressive promotion of NFP, and focus merely on the fact that it is a morally neutral way of directing fertility in situations that require direction, you can step back a bit from the whole debate and allow it to pass you by as you focus on your relationship to Christ within His Church.

Blessings:)
 
I have not said that I disagree with the Church - I said that I agree with the quoted statement by the OP.

Do not assign words or intentions to me that I have not used.

~Liza
The OP stated in the text you quoted, that there was no difference between using NFP to prevent a pregnancy and using a condom or the pill. Since the Church teaches in the CCC that contraception is “intrinsically evil” and that NFP is “in conformity with the objective criteria of morality”, this cannot be the case. In addition, the OP stated in the text you quoted that one of their reasons for dismissing Church teaching on NFP is that it was not defined infallibly. This implies that we are free to dismiss teachings of the Church which are not stated Ex Cathedra, when obviously we are not.

Either you agree with the OP in those statements you quoted, or you do not.
 
Has anyone noticed when something controversial comes up in question form it is usually by someone with a “trial” membership??

I am starting to think people hide behind that instead of using their real id.
I think you’re on to something…her other posts are derogatory comments about Catholics after Vatican ll along with sympathizing with sedevacantists and a comment about women are to be obedient to their husbands. The only thing she didn’t pop off on was the dead horse of “sola skirtura”. It does make you wonder if she’ll be back or if this was a speed-by trolling. 🤷
 
What is missing from this discussion is prayerful discernment of additional children, which is an integral part of NFP. I firmly believe that a couple who prayerfully discerns that they should have additional children will be given the appropriate blessings and grace for whatever God gives them.

But notice I say APPROPRIATE blessings. God does NOT provide for all children exactly as we might wish–children suffer and die every day, all over the world. Does this mean that the child was not God’s will because she was only born to have suffered and died? No. We have to recognize that God’s will encompasses factors we cannot comprehend. Many parents of severely developmentally-challenged children come to the realization that their children’s disabilities were God’s will–not because God wanted to see a child suffer, but because wanted to give us opportunities to grow in our love for each other and for Him. This is no way diminishes the challenges, nor is this an easy perspective to reach, but if we believe in a loving God, than this is the necessary conclusion.
I am astounded and sad at such thinking. God does not will suffering on anyone let alone an innocent baby.
Children suffer and die every day so its okay? Certainly not to the parents. I do not see God smiling at that too.
 
I think this is a very negative, cynical way to look at men and women who have dedicated their careers and so much of their time to ensuring mother and babies get healthy starts in life. In my experience, doctors call it how they see it and let the patiwnt ultimately decide what to do. It certainly doesn’t take super special Catholic eyeballs to see that a woman’s uterus is thinning or full of scar tissue.
I agree. Non-Catholics are not out to get us.
 
It is not God’s will that any child suffer or die prematurely. Faulty biology, chance and human nature account for that suffering - not God. The idea that anyone’s child dying is “God’s will” is appalling.
It is appalling.
 
I happen to agree with you 100% on this, but I don’t go there here on CAF because you will most probably be roasted alive for this opinion. But just know that you are NOT alone in thinking this - I know many very good and holy people who feel the very same way.

~Liza
Good and holy people can be wrong. If anyone states something that contradicts what the Church says, they will be called out on it.
 
I am astounded and sad at such thinking. God does not will suffering on anyone let alone an innocent baby.
Children suffer and die every day so its okay? Certainly not to the parents. I do not see God smiling at that too.
I was referring to God willing that a child, for example, have special needs. I don’t think it’s quite appropriate to say God is willing this child to suffer… Special needs have their own special challenges but also blessings (few people are as naturally endowed with the ability to love as people with Downs Syndrome, for example).

As far as suffering in general, let me rephrase: God certainly withholds healing which is obviously available to him, and does so not out of helplessness, and not just out of respect for our free will, but also because He can transform the suffering into blessing. Suffering has value, even if we cannot always see it. ALL suffering has value, for God takes all the bad and uses it for good.

Did I say that made these things okay? Of course not. Judas’s betrayal is no less abhorrent because God used it to help bring in fathomable goodness. Mary was not likely terribly consoled watching her son be tortured by the knowledge that his suffering had a purpose, but it did, nevertheless.
 
I agree. Non-Catholics are not out to get us.
I never said they were out to get us. But if you think devout Catholics don’t receive suggestions from doctors that are not strictly medical, then you need to look around a bit. I know at least a dozen people in my area, and have heard of dozens of stories from others, whose doctors give them advice which turns out to be partially based on their beliefs about the appropriate number and spacing of children. We personally have faced this kind of treatment. It’s not to say they are out to get us, and I’m not attributing malice to the physicians who insist the mother of 6 gets sterilized. But when it comes to reproductive issues, I wouldn’t trust a non Catholic doctor who very well may disagree–perhaps fervently–with my viewpoints, or not even see my viewpoints as legitimate concerns.

Here is the joke I heard from medical professionals in my family when we started NFP: “you know what we call a woman who practices NFP? Pregnant.” I don’t think I’m paranoid for want to consult a faithful Catholic doctor before we would make serious decisions like when to avoid having any further children because my wife’s uterus can’t safely handle it.
 
After reading 5 pages of responses, I think there a couple of things I need to address.

I’m not a protestant. I converted from protestantantism to Catholicism, but what disgusts me is to see how easily and readily Catholics will re-interpret teachings to suit their own minds. It bothers me to see how people don’t think stopping sex during fertile periods isn’t birth control, and birth control is sinful. We aren’t supposed to withhold ourselves from our spouses, or else what is the point in marrying?

I agree with lizzie in stating that the Church has never defined “grave” reasons. I keep hearing about these “grave reasons” yet no one can really define what they are! For all we know, grave reasons could be because couple A wants to travel the world first before having a child (heard that before) or because couple B want to get 2 master’s degrees (heard that before). I’ve heard even worse, and not a single reason was justifiable. Only in one instance in the past few years have I heard anything close. A friend of mine nearly died from organ failure, so she and her husband refrained during her healing.

Nowhere did I say women are supposed to be incubators and have endless amounts of children. Women didn’t even historically have endless amounts of children. Breastfeeding serves as a natural pregnancy-inhibitor and helped space births for women, and pregnancy served as a birthing spacer. For some reason people have this idea in their minds that if birth control isn’t used, a woman will have 10 kids automatically and always die. A lot of women nowadays can’t even get pregnant that easily, and the max I’ve seen is about 6 or so.

I wrote this question because I am feeling convicted about this topic…I am using NFP right now and as far as learning to track my cycle, it’s good. But using it to prevent pregnancies? It seems no better than the pill.
 
I guess I could be wrong, but I don’t really think a lot of people use NFP for selfish reasons. Maybe they do and I just don’t hear about it. Seems like pretty much all the people I know who do things like space babies apart or postpone them altogether because of frivolous reasons are on artificial birth control.
All those I know who do NFP do it only in months when they have a serious reason to do so. And on a more personal level, I just can’t imagine anyone abstaining unless they had a really good reason to do so. We have had months where we didn’t abstain and probably should have for my health, but just couldn’t resist each others’ charm! If you like your spouse and have a healthy libido, abstaining during your fertile time periods is hard! As it should be!
I think some Catholic organization should survey NFP users and find out what their reasons are for abstaining. I think the results would probably put to rest this idea that large numbers of people are voluntarily abstaining for frivolous reasons.

Only like 2% of people even practice NFP. I don’t think people willing to do it are the types to do it without good reason.
 
After reading 5 pages of responses, I think there a couple of things I need to address.

I’m not a protestant. I converted from protestantantism to Catholicism, but what disgusts me is to see how easily and readily Catholics will re-interpret teachings to suit their own minds. It bothers me to see how people don’t think stopping sex during fertile periods isn’t birth control, and birth control is sinful. We aren’t supposed to withhold ourselves from our spouses, or else what is the point in marrying?

I agree with lizzie in stating that the Church has never defined “grave” reasons. I keep hearing about these “grave reasons” yet no one can really define what they are! For all we know, grave reasons could be because couple A wants to travel the world first before having a child (heard that before) or because couple B want to get 2 master’s degrees (heard that before). I’ve heard even worse, and not a single reason was justifiable. Only in one instance in the past few years have I heard anything close. A friend of mine nearly died from organ failure, so she and her husband refrained during her healing.

Nowhere did I say women are supposed to be incubators and have endless amounts of children. Women didn’t even historically have endless amounts of children. Breastfeeding serves as a natural pregnancy-inhibitor and helped space births for women, and pregnancy served as a birthing spacer. For some reason people have this idea in their minds that if birth control isn’t used, a woman will have 10 kids automatically and always die. A lot of women nowadays can’t even get pregnant that easily, and the max I’ve seen is about 6 or so.

I wrote this question because I am feeling convicted about this topic…I am using NFP right now and as far as learning to track my cycle, it’s good. But using it to prevent pregnancies? It seems no better than the pill.
What astonishes me ( I won’t use “disgusts” as you disrespectfully do) is that a few converts and otherwise try to tell us something about Catholicism which is not what the Church teaches. I am not really bothered but you mislead those new to the Faith, potential converts, those not well versed in the teachings of the Church and others.
 
I was referring to God willing that a child, for example, have special needs. I don’t think it’s quite appropriate to say God is willing this child to suffer… Special needs have their own special challenges but also blessings (few people are as naturally endowed with the ability to love as people with Downs Syndrome, for example).

As far as suffering in general, let me rephrase: God certainly withholds healing which is obviously available to him, and does so not out of helplessness, and not just out of respect for our free will, but also because He can transform the suffering into blessing. Suffering has value, even if we cannot always see it. ALL suffering has value, for God takes all the bad and uses it for good.

Did I say that made these things okay? Of course not. Judas’s betrayal is no less abhorrent because God used it to help bring in fathomable goodness. Mary was not likely terribly consoled watching her son be tortured by the knowledge that his suffering had a purpose, but it did, nevertheless.
No, sorry, God does not cause babies with special needs. I do agree that God allows suffering. While I understand suffering can have some value, I have never understood the value to babies/small children who will never grow up and to animals. I digress, sorry.
 
I guess I could be wrong, but I don’t really think a lot of people use NFP for selfish reasons. Maybe they do and I just don’t hear about it. Seems like pretty much all the people I know who do things like space babies apart or postpone them altogether because of frivolous reasons are on artificial birth control.
All those I know who do NFP do it only in months when they have a serious reason to do so. And on a more personal level, I just can’t imagine anyone abstaining unless they had a really good reason to do so. We have had months where we didn’t abstain and probably should have for my health, but just couldn’t resist each others’ charm! If you like your spouse and have a healthy libido, abstaining during your fertile time periods is hard! As it should be!
I think some Catholic organization should survey NFP users and find out what their reasons are for abstaining. I think the results would probably put to rest this idea that large numbers of people are voluntarily abstaining for frivolous reasons.

Only like 2% of people even practice NFP. I don’t think people willing to do it are the types to do it without good reason.
Very good point.👍
 
After reading 5 pages of responses, I think there a couple of things I need to address.

I’m not a protestant. I converted from protestantantism to Catholicism, but what disgusts me is to see how easily and readily Catholics will re-interpret teachings to suit their own minds. It bothers me to see how people don’t think stopping sex during fertile periods isn’t birth control, and birth control is sinful. We aren’t supposed to withhold ourselves from our spouses, or else what is the point in marrying?
A married couple can, as long as both are in agreement, abstain temporarily during certain times of their cycle to delay pregnancy for serious reasons. What they cannot do is have one person without sexual relations from the other one when both are not in agreement.
I agree with lizzie in stating that the Church has never defined “grave” reasons. I keep hearing about these “grave reasons” yet no one can really define what they are! For all we know, grave reasons could be because couple A wants to travel the world first before having a child (heard that before) or because couple B want to get 2 master’s degrees (heard that before). I’ve heard even worse, and not a single reason was justifiable. Only in one instance in the past few years have I heard anything close. A friend of mine nearly died from organ failure, so she and her husband refrained during her healing.
No, the Church has not defined what a serious reason is or is not. As such, it is certainly not up to us to determine that for someone else. We can judge actions, but not the motivations behind them or the state of someone’s soul. That is up to God, and God alone.
Nowhere did I say women are supposed to be incubators and have endless amounts of children. Women didn’t even historically have endless amounts of children. Breastfeeding serves as a natural pregnancy-inhibitor and helped space births for women, and pregnancy served as a birthing spacer. For some reason people have this idea in their minds that if birth control isn’t used, a woman will have 10 kids automatically and always die. A lot of women nowadays can’t even get pregnant that easily, and the max I’ve seen is about 6 or so.
6 kids is far beyond what many families can handle from a financial or resources standpoint. You may be in disagreement, and that is your prerogative. However, your premise is flawed. The numbers of unwanted pregnancies in the world, abortions, kids dying of starvation, etc. show that it is not hard at all for women to get pregnant nowadays.
I wrote this question because I am feeling convicted about this topic…I am using NFP right now and as far as learning to track my cycle, it’s good. But using it to prevent pregnancies? It seems no better than the pill.
Learning to understand the natural rhythm of your body, in the way that God designed it, to plan your family is not even remotely the same thing as using the pill. One is intrinsically evil and the other is morally permissible, per the Church. Above you talked about reinterpreting teachings to suit one’s own mind. I suggest you look in the mirror.
 
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