I'm starting to hate democracy. Is this wrong?

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MarcoPolo said:
It’s okay not to “like” democracy. It’s not perfect, even if it’s better than many alternatives. After all, democracy is what chose Barrabas over Jesus.
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No, that is absolutely false. It was not “democracy”, it was mob rule that chose Barrabas over Jesus. There is a huge difference between exercising a democratic right in the privacy of a voting booth, and “voting” by a show of hands or public expression.

Democracy is exercised under the rule of law, protected by a constitution, and with the privacy of the voter protected so (s)he can exercise that right without mob pressure.

Any vote by a show of hands, or being out-shouted, is not democracy. It is in fact a form of tyranny, as one is compelled to “vote” with the mob.

It’s OK to be disappointed by the vote result in a democracy. But it is important, I think, to maintain a sense of perspective. The sun will still rise in the east and set in the west following Obama’s re-election, and the Church will persist without the gates of hell prevailing against her.

FWIW, I don’t think Obama is “evil”. I think he is well-meaning at heart. On life issues, he is deeply misguided. But he is an accurate reflection of, I think the situation in the US today (and for that matter we’re not much different in Canada; we have a very conservative government and yet we have abortion on demand and same-sex “marriage”). In a democracy, we tend to get the government we deserve.

For the orthodox Catholics, I think we need to gain a sense that the issue is not one of Obama (death) vs Romney (life). It is one of social direction and that is beyond the issue of politics. If anyone believes for an instant that suddenly abortion would have been illegal under Romney, I have some choice swampland in Florida for sale.

By blaming Obama, with all due respect, you’re putting the cart before the horse. Our social values (ours in Canada aren’t so much different) are really to blame. Getting positive movement on the life issue does not necessitate electing this candidate over that candidate. No, it requires a profound re-evangelization of the country. The loss of belief, faith and the moral compass that the Church (and even other churches) provides, is at the heart of the issue.

Instead of setting us into despair, this should whip us up into action to realize that much work on the ground needs to be done. Your constitution says “one nation under God”. Somehow the people have to find God again. Until they do, election will continue to reflect the will of an increasingly amoral society. Society needs its moral compass back. Until that time, railing against election results is futile.
 
fnr said:
Remember what Christ said about the Kingdom of God. It’s here, now.

Remember how the Apostles lived in persecution. The proclamation of Stephen that lead to his stoning in Acts 7 is a good model for Christians confronting power.

Remember the advice of St. Paul to the Christians throughout the Mediterranean. Live a life with Christ as Lord.

Keep in mind that we have plenty of instances in history where the law was the church, and it never, never, never worked. Cesare Borgia – son of a pope, a prince of the church, head of the papal armies. Francisco Franco – and his concordat. The Austro-Hungarian Empire – and its engorgement of elites at the behest of the poor. Byzantine Emperors could dictate theology – sometimes to popes – yet it didn’t free them of graft.

In our own country, when the law did things we supposedly liked, it didn’t work. For example, in the mid-1960s, when every state outlawed abortion except to save the life of the mother, studies estimated that the annual incidence of abortion was between 250,000-1,000,000 (internationally, the abortion rate in many Latin American countries exceeds that of the U.S., despite abortion being generally illegal there). Guns now are heavily regulated, yet gun violence claims thousands of lives a year in the U.S. Drugs are illegal, yet addicts and dealers abound.

I truly believe that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others. Politicians are addicted to power, and will usually do anything to hold on to it… that’s true world-wide. Democracy just means that politicians have to pander to a larger base of supporters.

But I also believe that government is not the only way to effect change: never has been, never will be. Like St. Stephen and St. Paul, Christians work best when we don’t effect change by forcing other people to do what we think they should… we get addicted to power. Christians should speak to power, hold the mirror to the powerful, and act for change in the world.

We must do more than vote to create the Kingdom of God. To quote a secular writer, Henry David Thoreau (with “the right” meaning good, not conservative): “Even voting for the right is doing nothing for it. It is only expressing to men feebly your desire that it should prevail. A wise man will not leave the right to the mercy of chance, nor wish it to prevail through the power of the majority. There is but little virtue in the action of masses of men.”
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Very thoughtful post, couldn’t agree more. Creating the Kingdom of God is the work on the ground that I speak of. And the first place to start, stares us in the mirror every morning…
 
Seeker1961 said:
Be honest-would you be saying the same thing if the election outcome had been different? How much of this is “my guy lost and I’m mad now”?
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It is exactly that. I’m mad at how idiotic my fellow countrymen are. I’m sorry if thats wrong, but yes it is that. However I will say if things went bad under Mr. Romney, I would feel the same, but maybe not with this intensity
 
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.”

― Alexis de Tocqueville
 
OraLabora said:
No, that is absolutely false. It was not “democracy”, it was mob rule that chose Barrabas over Jesus. There is a huge difference between exercising a democratic right in the privacy of a voting booth, and “voting” by a show of hands or public expression.
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Mob rule is not a majority voice. Mob rule is when one party, minority or otherwise, gets what it wants by violence or threat. The crowd before Pilate was a unanimous voice. I don’t know of anything in the text that suggests otherwise. They could have picked Jesus and Pilate would have happily turned him over.
 
benjammin said:
It is exactly that. I’m mad at how idiotic my fellow countrymen are. I’m sorry if thats wrong, but yes it is that. However I will say if things went bad under Mr. Romney, I would feel the same, but maybe not with this intensity
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I think the first problem is when we decide that those who disagree with us are “idiotic”.

People who disagree with me are NOT inferior to me, they have drawn different conclusions based on their life experience. If I love them, and if I am true to my faith, I will want to work with them, connect with them, and hopefully lead them to Christ. I can’t do that if I dismiss them out of hand as somehow lesser.
 
If you think democracy is bad try the alternative.
I think we’re about to.
 
preisinger said:
As a friend reminded me this morning.
It was a Democratic vote that choose
Barabbas over Jesus.
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MarcoPolo said:
It’s okay not to “like” democracy. It’s not perfect, even if it’s better than many alternatives. After all, democracy is what chose Barrabas over Jesus.
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The crowd cheering for Barabbas was a mob controlled by a theocracy - it was not a democratic choice.
 
triumphguy said:
The crowd cheering for Barabbas was a mob controlled by a theocracy - it was not a democratic choice.
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Would you agree that if Pilate had sent out Ballots where they could check Barrabas or Jesus the results would have been the same?
 
MarcoPolo said:
Would you agree that if Pilate had sent out Ballots where they could check Barrabas or Jesus the results would have been the same?
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I don’t think it was close enough to need the yeas and nays.
 
The point is, if one doesn’t want to think that the choice of Barrabas over Jesus was a democratic decision - then whatever definition of democracy that person thinks is correct would not have changed the Barrabas incident if it had been applied. Why? Because you had a unanimous sentiment in the voting public that demanded a certain unjust outcome. Democracy allows and is a vehicle to make that happen.
 
Seeker1961 said:
I think the first problem is when we decide that those who disagree with us are “idiotic”.

People who disagree with me are NOT inferior to me, they have drawn different conclusions based on their life experience. If I love them, and if I am true to my faith, I will want to work with them, connect with them, and hopefully lead them to Christ. I can’t do that if I dismiss them out of hand as somehow lesser.
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AMEN
 
MarcoPolo said:
Would you agree that if Pilate had sent out Ballots where they could check Barrabas or Jesus the results would have been the same?
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I would argue that the point is irrelevant, as that is not what happened.
 
It’s OK to be upset. I see the results as a reflection of the general consensus of our US citizens. It is our responsibility to help educate, serve as mentors and bring God back into the picture. Who are we allowing to educate and entertain our future generations? Is it the faith, our family or mainstream secular culture? Focus your passions in constructing a better future. Don’t lose hope. It seems that historically the Christian faith traditions have had the most passionate converts and saints when times were tough.
Whether you like them or not, for the sake of our country and government, pray for our leaders.
 
BORCHAPEMT said:
It’s OK to be upset. I see the results as a reflection of the general consensus of our US citizens. It is our responsibility to help educate, serve as mentors and bring God back into the picture. Who are we allowing to educate and entertain our future generations? Is it the faith, our family or mainstream secular culture? Focus your passions in constructing a better future. Don’t lose hope. It seems that historically the Christian faith traditions have had the most passionate converts and saints when times were tough.
Whether you like them or not, for the sake of our country and government, pray for our leaders.
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👍
 
triumphguy said:
The crowd cheering for Barabbas was a mob controlled by a theocracy - it was not a democratic choice.
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No, the Jewish Council had a SuperPAC that swayed voters to Barabas.

But seriously, during that time the Jews were expecting an earthly king to be their Messiah. Barabas was not a simple criminal, he was a political criminal (albeit a violent one, but that was more common during the time). People loved him because he was fighting for freedom against the Romans, something the people were expecting from the Messiah. They didn’t realize what the Kingdom that Jesus brought with him was.
 
pismopal said:
The USA is a Republic…not a democracy. …big difference. Whatever the difference is… as predicted long ago…when voters discover that they can vote for money for themselves…it is over.🤷
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Amen to what you said, especially your opening words!

I am so sick over last night’s results.

I wish that Our Lord would come back, and come back SOON!

(I’m so mad, I can’t even type straight!) :mad:

Why were Catholics so stupid to re-elect Obama again?

The only thing that [sort of] consoles me is that he is a mortal man like all the rest of us, and that one day (and I hope it comes sooner rather than later) he will have to face the Judgement Seat of God-and God will NOT BE IMPRESSED with Obama’s title of ‘President of the United States’. That will NOT COUNT in His sight!

And may the souls of all the aborted babies who were killed in the first term now accuse him in his second!

Don’t we have any REAL LEADERS anymore? Where are the young people from our ‘true’ Catholic colleges? Why aren’t they getting into public office so we can finally kick people like Obama and his evil minions OUT FOR GOOD? Where is all this talk about ‘changing the culture’ like one hears on places like EWTN? IT’S ALL LOT OF TALK! THERE’S NO ACTION!

Our country seems to be going the way of ancient Greece and Rome…we are rotting morally from within…God help America…
 
OraLabora said:
I would argue that the point is irrelevant, as that is not what happened.
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But I would argue if your definition of democracy was in place, the results would be no different, thus the criticism is moot. Ah well.

What can we do at this point but live our faiths.
 
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