I'm starting to hate democracy. Is this wrong?

[LEMAITRE]

You mean create a religious state like Iran where the religious leaders such as Mullas and Ayotollahs decide policies?

In our case we would have the Bishops decide but knowing how rebellious human nature can be would it succeed?

 

[NovusAugustus]

Even in the days of Catholic monarchies, the Church’s law was hardly universally recognized. Even in the Papal States there were horrible sins committed. Remember that God gave us free will–think about whether it is our part to restrict it. God will divide the sheep from the goats in the end. Leave it to Him.

 

[rfournier103]

I don’t think you hate democracy. You hate the decisions that have been made BY said democracy.

Here’s the deal… (I’m going to assume you’re an American) We have had it so good, and are so used to getting our own way; that when someone we don’t like gets elected or a policy we don’t like gets enacted, most of us cry like children.

Don’t like democracy? Do you think you would be better off in ANY of these nations?

Imperial Russia
Soviet Union
Present day China
Present day Iran
Iraq before the fall of Hussein
Present day North Korea
Present day Cuba
Present day Saudi Arabia
Present day Singapore
Nazi Germany
Present day Afghanistan
Present day Pakistan
England under the rule of Oliver Cromwell

Are you worse off in 21st century America than you would be in these countries? Count your blessings, my friend. Didn’t like how the election turned out? Get involved:

Work for a campaign
Pass out fliers
Work a phone bank
Become a delagate for your party of choice
Hold a candidate’s signs on election day
Blog
Be informed
Inform others
Donate to the campaign of your choice

~or~

RUN FOR OFFICE YOURSELF

OUR DEMOCRACY IS ONLY AS STRONG AS THE COMMITMENT OF IT’S CITIZENS

(I just made that up! I think.)

Next time; don’t sit on the sidelines! Make the change you want!

 

[josephback]

Read the “City of God” by St Augustine.

You will feel better.

I second this advice. The book is long, but Augustine weaves a master philosophy and it will cheer you up. We are pilgrims sojourning in worldly Babylon, yearning to arrive at our heavenly home.

Although I have not read it, “American Babylon” by the late Richard John Neuhaus might interest you, and it’s considerably shorter. Don’t pass up the “City of God” though.

 

[josephback]

Well, traditionally the Church was wary (at best) of democracy, so I think it’s appropriate to discuss in the T.C. forum.

I read somewhere that was because many democratic movements were originally anti-clerical…-back in the day.

 

[choliks]

I’ve read that during the 60’s or probably earlier, most Catholics in the US were democrats. What’s the difference between then and now?

 

[poche]

Be careful what you wish for. In a democracy we have the oportunity to present the teachings of the Catholic church to others who would not otherwise have that opportunity to hear what the Church says.
In a monarchy (even a Catholic monarchy) the interests of the ‘church’ and the king tend to get tied up. The king and his ‘friends’ use the name of the church to justify doing the evil that has no justification while the hierarchy looks the other way and pretends not to notice. This has caused major problems in many predominantly Catholic countries.
We have to take advantage of what we have to live the Faith and promote is as best we can.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I think we live in the best country in the world and democracy is much better than most other governmental systems ever tried but…

the fact remains that after all the guidance of American bishops about religious freedom and the HHS mandate and all the prayers and novenas about it

a MAJORITY of American Catholics voted for candidates that support the INTRINSIC evil of abortion and voted for a return of the administration that will try to enforce the HHS mandate against the Catholic Church!

I am more than concerned just about our country:

I am most concerned about the majority of Catholics that voted for candidates that support the INTRINSIC evil of abortion and an administration that supports the HHS mandate against our religious freedom AFTER being instructed by American bishops about the dire consequences of such a vote!

Wake up Catholic America!!! We aren’t even luke warm where we could get spewed out of the Lord’s mouth–a majority of Catholics that voted have become COLD!

Lord have mercy on us and Lord have mercy on our country!

P.S. Don’t forget that same sex marriage was approved by states for the first time in some states at the ballot box.

Now don’t get me wrong–there are many millions of Catholics that don’t support such things–our American bishops don’t support such things–but a majority of Catholic voters DO support candidates that supports such things!

The members of the Catholic church in America HAVE a problem and its time that we acknowledge that problem and do something about it!

The TRUTH spoken to our fellow Catholics might hurt but it is time for it in all charity to be said!

 

[R1ch4rd]

Democracy is such a terrible form of government. I feel that it just allows for mob rule and we end up with rules that go against the church. Its sad because I pride myself on being an american and having a good form of government, but after last night i’m just sick. I hate living in a democracy. I wish we lived in a place where the church was the law and the law was the church, or something like that.

Look at our leaders as “temporary” and you don’t have to like them to love your country. Kind of like a house, you don’t realize how nice is until you’ve looked in some others. And if your house is filled with love, it’s way more beautiful than the most expensive and biggest in the world, because your house is a “home”. I have to believe there were some Popes that weren’t popular with all Catholics, but the Church survived.

Best way to help fix it is to get involved.

 

[fnr]

The Holy Roman Empire and the Papal States weren’t too bad. Even the Austrian Habsburg Empire was pretty decent, until they got dragged into the wrong side of WWI.

Actually, the vast majority of these states’ populaces lived in horrible situations.

Louis XIV was a Catholic ruler. Did real well by his people… so well that they instituted the atheistic French revolution shortly thereafter.

Philip II of Spain was a Catholic ruler. Loved that Inquisition. Ethnic cleansing on a mass scale in Granada. Can take a great degree of the blame for the decline of the Spanish Empire.

But then there’s modern examples… good Catholic Franco, for one, the fascist. Granted, the anarchists and communists were burning churches before and during the revolution, but his Spain was a nightmare. Mass graves and all that.

Philippe Petain of Vichy France. There was another devoutly Catholic ruler.

Let’s not forget the Fourth Crusade… the one that sacked Constantinople, and arguably led to the long-term decline of the Byzantine Empire.

Those who are skeptical of democracy, really, let’s think through your alternative. So you give up democracy and do what? What steps do you take to institute your alternative? Government, by definition, is a territorial monopoly on overwhelming force. How do you plan to get there? While you’re thinking that through, go back and read your Bible. What does it say about Christians taking charge? I’ll point you to Acts 1-8 for examples of how to live the Kingdom of God (granted, this wasn’t democratic). Does your alternative to democracy square with that ideal? When you read the gospels, how does Christ help you with your plan?

We are all fallen. We are not to judge. The Kingdom is here, now. We all need to humbly act like it. We are one body in one Lord, Jesus Christ. As unpleasant as it may be, there are liberals like me with whom you are in communion. Gentile or Jew, servant or free, woman or man, Republican or Democrat.

Why don’t we try to understand one another?

 

[fnr]

I read somewhere that was because many democratic movements were originally anti-clerical…-back in the day.

Just depends on how far back you go. In locations where the Church and State were intimately intertwined, anti-clericalism tended to accompany democracy (e.g., France, Russia, Spain). In locations where religious pluralism was present and no single religion dominant, democracy tended not to be anti-clerical (e.g., U.S., Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth).

English Parliament: not originally, but under the Roundheads, yes.

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth: not at all (actually the republican government was specifically designed to make different Christian confessions work together)

American Revolution: Many no, some yes (esp. Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson).

French Revolution: Atheist.

Democracy and anti-clericalism originated in the Reformation and the Enlightenment. It’s unsurprising that rationality made people challenge hierarchies based on “divine right.” Particularly where monarchs used priests, bishops, and monks to prop up their rule, it makes sense that those clergy would be subject to criticism by reasonable people.

 

[Tomster]

Democracy is such a terrible form of government. I feel that it just allows for mob rule and we end up with rules that go against the church. Its sad because I pride myself on being an american and having a good form of government, but after last night i’m just sick. I hate living in a democracy. I wish we lived in a place where the church was the law and the law was the church, or something like that.

Ben,

Consider this if you will as an example.

Suppose there are ten identical houses on a street with one exception.The exception being that one house has a swimming pool.

In a democracy a vote could be taken among the ten property owners to go swimming in the pool. If passed, the owner of the pool would have to let the other owners go swimming in his/her pool.

If the form of government the ten home owners were living under was a constitutional republic with individual rights that election would be impossible.

If anyone thinks the above example is a bit simplistic, take a look at your next pay voucher and see who is “swimming” in your paycheck without your appoval and confiscating money they did not earn.

 

[iloveangels]

Democracy is such a terrible form of government. I feel that it just allows for mob rule and we end up with rules that go against the church. Its sad because I pride myself on being an american and having a good form of government, but after last night i’m just sick. I hate living in a democracy. I wish we lived in a place where the church was the law and the law was the church, or something like that.

Nope. This country’s not supposed to be a democracy. It’s supposed to be a republic.

 

[triumphguy]

I think we live in the best country in the world and democracy is much better than most other governmental systems ever tried but…

the fact remains that after all the guidance of American bishops about religious freedom and the HHS mandate and all the prayers and novenas about it

a MAJORITY of American Catholics voted for candidates that support the INTRINSIC evil of abortion and voted for a return of the administration that will try to enforce the HHS mandate against the Catholic Church!

I am more than concerned just about our country:

I am most concerned about the majority of Catholics that voted for candidates that support the INTRINSIC evil of abortion and an administration that supports the HHS mandate against our religious freedom AFTER being instructed by American bishops about the dire consequences of such a vote!

Wake up Catholic America!!! We aren’t even luke warm where we could get spewed out of the Lord’s mouth–a majority of Catholics that voted have become COLD!

Lord have mercy on us and Lord have mercy on our country!

P.S. Don’t forget that same sex marriage was approved by states for the first time in some states at the ballot box.

Now don’t get me wrong–there are many millions of Catholics that don’t support such things–our American bishops don’t support such things–but a majority of Catholic voters DO support candidates that supports such things!

The members of the Catholic church in America HAVE a problem and its time that we acknowledge that problem and do something about it!

The TRUTH spoken to our fellow Catholics might hurt but it is time for it in all charity to be said!

You must be Canadian:thumbsup:

 

[triumphguy]

Ben,

Consider this if you will as an example.

Suppose there are ten identical houses on a street with one exception.The exception being that one house has a swimming pool.

In a democracy a vote could be taken among the ten property owners to go swimming in the pool. If passed, the owner of the pool would have to let the other owners go swimming in his/her pool.

If the form of government the ten home owners were living under was a constitutional republic with individual rights that election would be impossible.

If anyone thinks the above example is a bit simplistic, take a look at your next pay voucher and see who is “swimming” in your paycheck without your appoval and confiscating money they did not earn.

Far too simplistic.

In a democracy the people decide what economic system they want to live in.
Most people will decide that private ownership is in their interest.
So, a democracy would never even ask people to act against their interest.

The problem with modern democracies is that the people have been trained by commercialism, the media, and politicians to put selfish interests above all others.

 

[pismopal]

I’ve read that during the 60’s or probably earlier, most Catholics in the US were democrats. What’s the difference between then and now?

The Democrat Party has changed and in my opinion so have Catholics. Many Democrats in the 60’s and earlier were conservatives and I am guessing that Catholics were more so then too. The Dem’s have been completely taken over by the left…allied with unions, public service and trade, all for themselves and working against the interests of the tax payers. John Kennedy would not even be recognized as a Dem these days. JFK LOWERED tax rates and reaped the benefits of an improving business climate and greater tax revenues. The left and the Dems don’t and will never get it…raising taxes on business and YOU is in their DNA and it will never change. Catholics now…many of us, seem to vote what they think are benefits for themselves and if a few million unborn are sacrificed that is too bad…even after all but a verbal order from Bishops relayed through parish priests. Watch Obama and his bunch and weep

 

[NovusAugustus]

I’ve read that during the 60’s or probably earlier, most Catholics in the US were democrats. What’s the difference between then and now?

True. I suspect that the shift is due to the Democrats’ adoption of many pro-abortion and anti-religious positions. I favor the Democrats on many issues, but their pro-murder camp is so despicable that I could never vote for them.

 

[poker10]

I’ve read that during the 60’s or probably earlier, most Catholics in the US were democrats. What’s the difference between then and now?

Abortion wasn’t even an issue before Roe V Wade, and really wasn’t split in political parties until the late 80s, early 90s.

 

[HelenRose]

Well, we could have Rev. Wright crown President Obama and make him the king.

 

[tabycat]

Democracy is such a terrible form of government. I feel that it just allows for mob rule and we end up with rules that go against the church. Its sad because I pride myself on being an american and having a good form of government, but after last night i’m just sick. I hate living in a democracy. I wish we lived in a place where the church was the law and the law was the church, or something like that.

Ok, democracy is a terrible form of government, until you consider all other forms of government. :