I'm still agonising over my conflict with doctrine

[Iron_Donkey]

James! You have put into words exactly what I wanted to say! (And I am a writer - how ironic is that???)

“The split here is mean to determine if really hold an erroneous belief (abortion is justified in certain circumstances) ***or if you simply have very great empathy for the woman who was victimized and under great stress…and so can understand why a woman might make such a choice ***”

This is what I meant by not judging her for making a terrible decision. I would never say it was wrong for her to do it because I don’t feel it is my right to do that - only God can do that. So can I stop worrying about this now? It really has been keeping me awake at night!

This is exactly how I feel about the situation I describe - wow, thank you James for putting into words something I have been unable to do. So can I stop worrying about this now? It really has been keeping me awake at night!

I think part of the problem here might be distinguishing objectively wrong acts and sin. It is not clear which category you are reluctant to put such difficult abortions into. Let me try it this way:

1. It is perfectly fine (and in fact beyond fine and what we’re supposed to do) to not want to accuse others of sin. You don’t have to go around telling yourself that people who end up in terrible situations and make these sorts of choices have committed mortal sin. You are right that that is not our job.
2. It is GOOD to have the empathy that you have and realize that the people are often in terrible situations.
3. That said, the Catholic Church does teach that it is objectively gravely wrong for a person to have an abortion for whatever reason, because it is killing a child. So while we should have empathy for the mother, and we should not judge the mother, we do need to admit that the action itself should not have happened.

There is a difference between recognizing what a terribly hard situation the mother was in and refraining from accusing her of mortal sin (good stuff), and saying that what she did was actually ok (not good).

If your only concern is that you do not wish to accuse people who have abortions of mortal sin because you know that they are in a hard situation and that you cannot possibly see into their hearts and tell how the agony that they must be undergoing affects what they do - that is not just acceptable, that is excellent.

If you think that it is actually objectively permissible (as distinguished from whether a person incurs any sort of guilt or punishment or "gets on God’s bad side, all of which is part of the last case) for a person to have an abortion in such a case, that could potentially be a problem.

If you are not sure, I would recommend setting up a meeting with your priest or RCIA leader or a spiritual director to talk through this at length to see what’s going on.

As far as worrying about whether a position will keep you out of the Church - definitely only get that answer from your priest. We can (and will) try to give what advice we can, but it’s better to go to the person who actually decides what will happen.

 

[JRKH]

It’s the difference between doctrinal position (public teaching) and pastoral care (private and relational).

The Church would obviously forgive anyone who had an abortion after a rape if she went to confession.

What the Church cannot accept though is the statement that it’s OK to have an abortion after rape. It’s not OK. It is forgivable.

Perhaps you could accept this position or a similar for yourself: I understand why a woman would have an abortion after a rape. I might even feel that I would have an abortion after being raped myself. I also understand why the Church teaches that abortion is wrong. I also understand that the Church would forgive any woman who confessed to an abortion after a rape.

Peace
James

 

[LostSheepUK]

Not at all. I think it laudable that you take this attitude.
This is part of why I asked you the question earlier…
**This seems to indicate that you believe abortion to be wrong and that you would never promote or encourage someone to have an abortion - not even in the case of rape…
Yet you feel a great empathy for those who find themselves in such a horrible situation. **

If I am correct in my assumption - I don’t think that there is any reason for you to stay out of full communion with the Church.

Ultimately - all things ARE between God and the individual. What the Church does is to provide guidance and instruction. Her teachings are sound and compassionate and loving. But ultimately our decisions - and the consequences - are a matter between an individual and God.

Peace
James

James.

That is how I feel, thank you for helping me clarify my own crowded, anguished thoughts.

 

[LostSheepUK]

It’s the difference between doctrinal position (public teaching) and pastoral care (private and relational).

The Church would obviously forgive anyone who had an abortion after a rape if she went to confession.

What the Church cannot accept though is the statement that it’s OK to have an abortion after rape. It’s not OK. It is forgivable.

Perhaps you could accept this position or a similar for yourself: I understand why a woman would have an abortion after a rape. I might even feel that I would have an abortion after being raped myself. I also understand why the Church teaches that abortion is wrong. I also understand that the Church would forgive any woman who confessed to an abortion after a rape.

Thank you!! Thank you everyone!

Honestly I have had so many sleepless nights & arguments with my wife over this for the last few months that I began to think God was beyond my reach. I have been called all manner of names online for trying to discuss this subject and yet I find some intelligent people who are able to see what it is I am saying - even though I am not necessarily explaining myself clearly,

I am meeting with my parish priest later this week to talk through some things and I will use your observations to explain myself and my feelings. Triumphguy - I think the section I highlighted is, along with the sharp and insightful observation of James and IronDonkey, really gives me the peace of mind I was looking for.

I’ve never believed in “blind faith”; I always question & challenge because I WANT to understand God and I believe he has a plan for me. You have really put my mind at rest. thank you all.

God Bless
Stuart

(Friend Requests submitted!)

 

[Angela77]

Give yourself time. I had trouble accepting certain Catholic doctrine at first. Research it. I came to see the Truth in it. I think it’s hard in our modern day world because we’re told the exact opposite of what the Church teaches on most issues…so one has to reshape the way one thinks.

I’ve found the Catholic Church to be right on so many issues that She’s really upped Her credibility in my eyes. So if I disagree, I usually assume the Church is right and I’ll come around at some point.

 

[Regina_Love]

God does call mothers who have conceived in abuse, rape, and incest to have their children out of great love for Mother & child. What a testimony to say, with God, that EVERY LIFE IS A GIFT FROM GOD! I refuse to commit murder, because I was abused, hurt, and confused. I refuse to give in to dispair. I believe God will help me through this difficult time. I believe God will heal my past hurts. I believe God will bring great goodness out of this child’s birth! I believe this child deserves to live!!! I believe this child is a blessing to the world. If I am not called to raise this child, I believe God has a family picked out for this baby! (2 million families a year cannot find a baby to adopt) I believe that what satan ment for evil, God can change, heal, and bring good out of it! I believe this baby is the good that came out of my horrific situation! I am proud of myself for overcoming my fears, and making life giving decisions! I have triumphed! With God is the victory!!

 

[triumphguy]

Thank you!! Thank you everyone!

Honestly I have had so many sleepless nights & arguments with my wife over this for the last few months that I began to think God was beyond my reach. I have been called all manner of names online for trying to discuss this subject and yet I find some intelligent people who are able to see what it is I am saying - even though I am not necessarily explaining myself clearly,

I am meeting with my parish priest later this week to talk through some things and I will use your observations to explain myself and my feelings. Triumphguy - I think the section I highlighted is, along with the sharp and insightful observation of James and IronDonkey, really gives me the peace of mind I was looking for.

I’ve never believed in “blind faith”; I always question & challenge because I WANT to understand God and I believe he has a plan for me. You have really put my mind at rest. thank you all.

God Bless
Stuart

(Friend Requests submitted!)

I’ll offer some prayers for you in your journey.

I came kicking and screaming into an adult faith too - and even now I have my bad days

 

[Lancer]

For your consideration…these for me are the “truth tellers” about my faith and obedience to the Magisterial teachings of the Catholic Church on all matters of faith and morals.

If I say to a good friend that abortion is okay in certain circumstances…as my judgment/decision…I am doing more than being a “cafeteria --picking and choosing what I accept/don’t accept–Catholic…the stakes are incredibly high…“my blood” (my soul) will be called for their sin and my sin of omission in the evil…for not speaking the Truth…in which “Truth” is never something…it is a person… Our Lord Jesus Christ (John 14: RSV-CE-- "6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.”). Also…if I say the Church is wrong on this issue…how do I know it is right about the Mass…Holy Eucharist…Reconciliation/priest forgiveness of my sins…Purgatory…Communion of Saints…etc. What I am really saying when I practice my “cafeteria Catholic faith” is: **"Ah, excuse me Peter (Pope Benedict et.al.)…but you are sitting in my Chair. ** (para Prof Peter Kreeft, Boston College).

Lastly…I disagree that sin is really only ultimately between God and the Person (planning to or already had an abortion)…The Church is the Body of Christ made up of all baptized Christians…one part of the Body can’t sin…and have no effect on the entire Body…it is a “physical and spiritual—mystical” impossibility. All you have to do is look at all the known egregious sins and see what they have done to the Body of Christ in the world…schisms… heresies…abortions…slavery…unjust wars…etc. Now think about all our unknown sins(at least by each other)…see and how unholy…corrupted… the Body of Christ is left…because of sinners like me…and my “private” sins (look at the Ezekiel quote below).

**CCC-953 **Communion in charity. In the sanctorum communio, "None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself."489 "If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it."490 "Charity does not insist on its own way."491 In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all. Every sin harms this communion.

Pax Christi…and His great graces and blessings on your journey Home.

Ezekiel 3:16-21 (RSV-CE)

16 And at the end of seven days, the word of the Lord came to me: 17 “Son of man,** I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 18 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. 20 Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.”**

Matthew 28: 16-20 (RSV-CE)

The Commissioning of the Disciples

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 And **Jesus **came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

**Luke 10:1 &16 (RSV-CE)
**

1. After this the Lord appointed seventy[a] others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come.
   16 “He who** hears you hears me**, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

 

[JRKH]

For your consideration…these for me are the “truth tellers” about my faith and obedience to the Magisterial teachings of the Catholic Church on all matters of faith and morals.

If I say to a good friend that abortion is okay in certain circumstances…as my judgment/decision…I am doing more than being a “cafeteria --picking and choosing what I accept/don’t accept–Catholic…the stakes are incredibly high…“my blood” (my soul) will be called for their sin and my sin of omission in the evil…for not speaking the Truth…in which “Truth” is never something…it is a person… Our Lord Jesus Christ (John 14: RSV-CE-- "6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.”). Also…if I say the Church is wrong on this issue…how do I know it is right about the Mass…Holy Eucharist…Reconciliation/priest forgiveness of my sins…Purgatory…Communion of Saints…etc. What I am really saying when I practice my “cafeteria Catholic faith” is: **"Ah, excuse me Peter (Pope Benedict et.al.)…but you are sitting in my Chair. ** (para Prof Peter Kreeft, Boston College).

Lastly…I disagree that sin is really only ultimately between God and the Person (planning to or already had an abortion)…The Church is the Body of Christ made up of all baptized Christians…one part of the Body can’t sin…and have no effect on the entire Body…it is a “physical and spiritual—mystical” impossibility. All you have to do is look at all the known egregious sins and see what they have done to the Body of Christ in the world…schisms… heresies…abortions…slavery…unjust wars…etc. Now think about all our unknown sins(at least by each other)…see and how unholy…corrupted… the Body of Christ is left…because of sinners like me…and my “private” sins (look at the Ezekiel quote below).

Pax Christi…and His great graces and blessings on your journey Home.

Lancer,
the thing that we have discovered here is that the OP doesn’t think that abortion is OK in any circumstances but he has great empathy for the difficulty of a woman who is pregnant via rape…
He wishes to reach out with understanding and forgiveness. Not to say that the act was right but that the woman needs help and healing.

This is what the Church wishes to do. To reach out in compassion.

In regards to sin being between an individual and God. I was speaking in terms of actual judgement. You are quite right that the church teaches - and that we are all a part of the body and sin in one part hurts us all. And yet - Love means that we try to heal those wounds and this works best through compassion. therefore we try not to judge - but to guide.

Peace
James