I'm thinking of leaving Catholicism to become a Jewish Noachide

[Brett1980]

I am thinking of becoming a Noahide.

The fundamental reason for this is based on my conception of righteousness. I have been approaching catholicism like a jew. Before coming to Catholicism I was a reprobate sinner. When I began as a catholic I purchased many commentaries and books to try and rid myself of ignorance. My approach being that the study of religion will lead me to know what is righteousness and then act on it. I believe that righteousness can be learned.

Prior to attending a catholic church I attended a protestant church. When I asked what do I do to obtain righteousness they said that I had the wrong approach, that there was nothing I can do but wait on gods grace. Several years into my membership at the protestant church people began to dislike me because I was and remained a fundamentally flawed human being.

People say I have a low self esteem, having a flawed past this is probably justified. However, I want to do something about it. Christianity is fundamentaly opposed to the idea of learning righteousness. I have treated the catechism and the bible the same way a jew treats the torah.

A good catholic should know righteousness without being told because catholics believe in a natural law being written on mens hearts. They should seek grace through the eucharist. Bible study is secondary but primarily to know god, not to obtain righteousness.

What do you think?

 

[StrawberryJam]

I am thinking of becoming a Noahide.

The fundamental reason for this is based on my conception of righteousness. I have been approaching catholicism like a jew. Before coming to Catholicism I was a reprobate sinner. When I began as a catholic I purchased many commentaries and books to try and rid myself of ignorance. My approach being that the study of religion will lead me to know what is righteousness and then act on it. I believe that righteousness can be learned.

Prior to attending a catholic church I attended a protestant church. When I asked what do I do to obtain righteousness they said that I had the wrong approach, that there was nothing I can do but wait on gods grace. Several years into my membership at the protestant church people began to dislike me because I was and remained a fundamentally flawed human being.

People say I have a low self esteem, having a flawed past this is probably justified. However, I want to do something about it. Christianity is fundamentaly opposed to the idea of learning righteousness. I have treated the catechism and the bible the same way a jew treats the torah.

A good catholic should know righteousness without being told because catholics believe in a natural law being written on mens hearts. They should seek grace through the eucharist. Bible study is secondary but primarily to know god, not to obtain righteousness.

What do you think?

Hope you have a good transistion and hope you get things sorted out about what catholics actually believe, instead of what you think they do.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

I think you will not be happy in any religion, until you work on your own psychological problems. I suspect that you already know this.

Go and get some in depth counseling and learn WHY you in effect destroy any religious experience you find yourself in. You will not be happy with anything, until you learn to live with yourself.

Becoming Jewish will not solve your problems. You have a very idealized concept of what religion should be, and there is no religion on this earth that could possibly live up to your expectations. That’s because your expectations are simply not realistic.

You are free to try anything you want, but how many times do you have to hit yourself on the head with a hammer, before you seek out help?

 

[Califman831]

I will be praying for your immortal soul as well as for the soul of all Jews and Protestants that they may be converted to the True faith Catholicism.

 

[Brett1980]

I think you will not be happy in any religion, until you work on your own psychological problems. I suspect that you already know this.

Go and get some in depth counseling and learn WHY you in effect destroy any religious experience you find yourself in. You will not be happy with anything, until you learn to live with yourself.

Becoming Jewish will not solve your problems. You have a very idealized concept of what religion should be, and there is no religion on this earth that could possibly live up to your expectations. That’s because your expectations are simply not realistic.

You are free to try anything you want, but how many times do you have to hit yourself on the head with a hammer, before you seek out help?

Why do you have to resort to personal attacks?

Why don’t you stick to the issue that I brought up?

This is fundamentally about rightousness through grace (which I believe is fundamentally opposed to the concept of freewill) and rightousness through effort (also known as trying to be a better person).

 

[ZDHayden]

Why do you have to resort to personal attacks?

Why don’t you stick to the issue that I brought up?

This is fundamentally about rightousness through grace (which I believe is fundamentally opposed to the concept of freewill) and rightousness through effort (also known as trying to be a better person).

How is righteousness through grace fundamentally opposed to free will? One can only receive grace if one voluntarily opens themselves to grace - that takes effort: for some, only prayer, for others study and prayer, and yet for others action. The effort to obtain grace seems different for each person.

I have found that recent commentaries, recent thought tends toward (in my experience) “little or no effort” and “let God do the work.” These people are not saints. My favorite saint (besides Mary), once said: “Pray as if everything depended upon God; work as if everything depends upon you.” He is a Doctor and Father of the Church. This sounds a lot like your preference - it is the traditional preference in the Church. You need both - work and grace (the saint I quoted is called the “Doctor of Grace”). Work to open yourself up - to force yourself out of bad earthly habits, to force yourself to actively seek God. But work only takes you so far - it takes you to the doorstep where Grace then can have a very real impact, and the product of the combination of your efforts and the Grace of God is what Man calls righteousness - holiness - sanctity.

 

[Trishie]

Hi Brett, rather than commentaries at first it may be most helpful to read the bible for the best answers to your difficulties.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter” [Matthew 7, 21]. Faith increases as a result of our obedience to the will of God, and obedience is achieved by doing good works and trying hard not to neglect them. [2 Corinthians 10,15]. “It is not those who call me ‘Lord, Lord’ who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my father in heaven.” [Matthew 7:21]

“Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.” [Galatians 6:7-9] "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Phil 2:12-13

Take the case, my brothers of someone who has never done a single good act but claims that he has faith. Will that faith save him? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, ‘I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty’, without giving them these bare necessities of llife, then what good is that?: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead.
This is the way to talk to people of that kind:'You say you have faith and I have good deeds; I will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds–now you prove to me that you have faith without any good deeds to show.

You believe in one God–that is creditable enough, but the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear. Do realise, you senseless man, that faith without works is useless. You surely know that Abraham our Father was justified by his deed, because he offered Isaac on the altar? There you see it; faith and good deeds were working together; his faith became perfect by what he did. This is what scripture really means when it says: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was counted as making him justified; and that is why he was called the friend of God. You see now that it is by doing something good, and not only by believing, that a man is justified." [James 2: 14-24]

However, a reliable source of what the Church teaches about efforts to be holy, and God’s grace in relation to holiness

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a7.htm

 

[RebeccaJ]

Righteousness is a worthy effort, but it is not something that can be possessed, like a new house or a car. Your post comes across as though you think it is, but maybe that is not what you meant to convey. Maybe more information on what you believe righteousness is?

At any rate, “holiness” is the term Catholics use a lot. If you start reading on holiness, you’ll find the holy are found to be righteous before God. Perhaps that will help you in your studies.

As for a natural grace, I seem to have been born with a low dose. I’ve said before to friends that I don’t seem to know what is right or wrong naturally, and spent a great portion of my life not caring.

So, if God isn’t giving me grace to be found righteous before Him, then I’m in trouble. But, I know that I’m not in trouble, as evidenced by Jesus Christ. We are made righteous by Him and through Him. He is the Way.

One thing that just came to mind, God gave to His chosen people the law in order that they might become righteous. The Father, knowing our sinful condition, sent His Son, to fulfill the law, and do for us what we could not do for ourselves.

You cannot make yourself righteous on your own, and there is no reason that you should want to!

Peace.

 

[Brett1980]

How is righteousness through grace fundamentally opposed to free will? One can only receive grace if one voluntarily opens themselves to grace - that takes effort: for some, only prayer, for others study and prayer, and yet for others action. The effort to obtain grace seems different for each person.

I have found that recent commentaries, recent thought tends toward (in my experience) “little or no effort” and “let God do the work.” These people are not saints. My favorite saint (besides Mary), once said: “Pray as if everything depended upon God; work as if everything depends upon you.” He is a Doctor and Father of the Church. This sounds a lot like your preference - it is the traditional preference in the Church. You need both - work and grace (the saint I quoted is called the “Doctor of Grace”). Work to open yourself up - to force yourself out of bad earthly habits, to force yourself to actively seek God. But work only takes you so far - it takes you to the doorstep where Grace then can have a very real impact, and the product of the combination of your efforts and the Grace of God is what Man calls righteousness - holiness - sanctity.

Thanks ZDHayden thats what I was looking for. I’m glad you recognized that some recent commentators are advocating an almost grace alone approach.

Grace alone is almost slavery, it denies personal responsiblity and freedom to choose right.

Anyways I probably wont leave now (this is why I came on a catholic forum to get peoples ideas).

 

[valentino]

God told Abraham that his faith was counted as righteousness.In otherwords because of his belief in God he was considered righteous.We are all sinners but sinners can still be righteous.As humans born with a sinful nature we may never be able to overcome sin entirely in our lifetimes.But when we sin we must ask God for forgiveness.We must keep trying even if we keep falling into the same sins.God knows our hearts and He knnows we wish to overcome our faults but He’s pleased when we turn to Him and ask for His help and mercy.Jesus seeks mercy above all else.

 

[Brett1980]

Righteousness is a worthy effort, but it is not something that can be possessed, like a new house or a car. Your post comes across as though you think it is, but maybe that is not what you meant to convey. Maybe more information on what you believe righteousness is?

At any rate, “holiness” is the term Catholics use a lot. If you start reading on holiness, you’ll find the holy are found to be righteous before God. Perhaps that will help you in your studies.

As for a natural grace, I seem to have been born with a low dose. I’ve said before to friends that I don’t seem to know what is right or wrong naturally, and spent a great portion of my life not caring.

So, if God isn’t giving me grace to be found righteous before Him, then I’m in trouble. But, I know that I’m not in trouble, as evidenced by Jesus Christ. We are made righteous by Him and through Him. He is the Way.

One thing that just came to mind, God gave to His chosen people the law in order that they might become righteous. The Father, knowing our sinful condition, sent His Son, to fulfill the law, and do for us what we could not do for ourselves.

You cannot make yourself righteous on your own, and there is no reason that you should want to!

Peace.

Hi Rebecca,

Thanks for that. I too don’t seem to know whats right and wrong. Hence I’ve been studying the catechism, recent commentaries and a little bit of jewish “how to be an honerable person” to try to reform my ways.

My upbringing wasn’t christian, so I feel uncomfortable around religious people because things that come naturally to them I don’t immediately get.

My studies are to try and relieve me of ignorance in relation to rightousness. This is personal effort and I have been putting in a lot of effort. I still pray for gods grace, but personal effort fly’s in the face of “Grace alone”.

If the catholic church believes that Grace is the start (albiet a big start) and the rest is our choice and our effort then I can work with this.

Any religion that believes me to be haughty for trying to improve myself isn’t a religion I want to be associated with.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_gratia

 

[ZDHayden]

My upbringing wasn’t christian, so I feel uncomfortable around religious people because things that come naturally to them I don’t immediately get.

I was atheist before converting! I am very religious but struggle constantly (believe me, Catholicism is no where near easy for me!). You and I just might get along.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Christianity is fundamentaly opposed to the idea of learning righteousness. …

A good catholic should know righteousness without being told because catholics believe in a natural law being written on mens hearts. … Bible study is secondary but primarily to know god, not to obtain righteousness.

What do you think?

I think you may be misunderstanding the Catholic view. All that is good does indeed come from God (even our very existence), and the grace to do righteous acts also comes from God. If we were in a perfect, unfallen world, then it would always be obvious to us when God offers us various graces. Everyone would be able to easily distinguish right from wrong (and freely choose right), and Righteousness would be totally built in. Though this is not the case, even in our fallen world some of that remains - some vestige of righteousness remains built into our core, obscured by original sin. The Law is indeed written on our hearts, but we are not always adept at reading even our own hearts, especially with our imperfections jumping in the way.

Study, whether done as an adult, or done as a child under the direction of parents and hence called “upbringing” teaches us to tell right from wrong, to know what acts please God, and, essentially, to read the law that is in our hearts. It forms our conscience, which itself is much more than a feel-good “what seems right” notion but includes, ideally, our full powers of reason applied to everything we know about what is good. But even the ability to study and form this conscience - to learn the basic tenets of right and wrong and extrapolate it to be able to determine the righteous path, comes from God, and in so studying, we cooperate in God’s Grace, His gift of the ability to try to please Him.

I think what may have happened is that you saw the emphasis on “God is the source” and mis-interperted it, as many do, to mean that we don’t have to do anything, that it’s all automatic if we’re “good Catholics”. The idea of Grace is not that God sends this mystical force down on us that forces us to know and do good, but rather that God makes it even possible for us to determine what is and to do good. Our good actions are cooperating with God’s grace.

As fallen beings, we do not always recognize when God extends His Grace - we need study, the engaging in which is also a cooperation with God’s grace, to be come adept at this. We do have to learn right from wrong. And after we do, we do have to choose right. It’s not automatic, and not all of morality is built in in a self evident way (though much of it can be logically deduced from that which is.)

And we certainly don’t expect Catholics to become perfect. That’s why there are confessionals. We do expect Catholics to try to be perfect, but we all fail. Those who fail less spectacularly than the rest of us are typically canonized and called saints, but we all fail - and this is because even the knowledge of right and wrong, of what is righteous, that we gain through as much study as we can make ourselves do, does not determine our actions. This is where choice comes in.

The Righteous, when the word is applied to people (and as I understand it), are those who manage to persist in a state of cooperation with God’s grace. Small failings happen to us all, of course, but not all failings derail us completely, and even those that do can be forgiven so that we can get back on track. Thus becoming righteous is a combination of God offering the possibility and us accepting it. To emphasize - the latter is not passive or automatic and may well require the effort and study that you describe (though those raised with a good idea of right and wrong may bypass that requirement as adults and struggle only (if such can be called “only”) with the decisions part. But even for those of us in that situation, it is anything but a passive process.

Perhaps I’m addressing the wrong issue entirely, but I really think it is much more likely that there is a simple misunderstanding or misapplied emphasis here.

And finally, whether you ascribe to a Catholic view of righteousness or not should not be the determining factor in whether or not you remain Christian. If Christ did die for our sins, and issue which is almost independent of the question you raise, then Christianity of some flavor is right. It may be that you need some guided study of the finer points of Catholicism, or perhaps to talk to a knowledgeable priest or spiritual director about those parts that aren’t brought up in Mass every day, and you may even need to consider what it is you believe in the end, but before you decide to leave Christianity all together, you probably need to decide what you believe about the Christ.

 

[Brett1980]

Recently on EWTN podcasts I heard Mother Angelica say when she comes before god and gives an account “he will say what did you do to inherit eternal life”. She said “I did nothing I just put it in the hands of your mother (Mary)”.

ewtn.com/podcast/index.asp

Now don’t get me wrong, from the hour I listened to mother Angelica I really thought she was a fantastic person even possibly a Saint.

The only thing that I have a problem with is the doing nothing part.

When I come before god. God willing I have acted in a good way (Grace). I would like to say, when he asks “what did you do?”. I read the catechism and the bible for guidance and followed their guidance, I avoided sin and confessed what I could remember, I engaged in the corporeal and spiritual works of mercy and I tried to be a good person,** all these things I couldn’t have done without your grace**.

Now if this is an acceptable answer and god willing I’ve been righteous then that is fine by me.

What I don’t want is a response like “you haughty person, your deeds are infantismally minute and yet you claim credit! I hereby open the gates of fire, to hell with you, you goat!”

 

[Brett1980]

Looks like I may have mistakenly believed Catholicism to be a form of quietism.

“In the state of “quietude” the mind is wholly inactive; it no longer thinks or wills on its own account, but remains passive while God acts within it.”

newadvent.org/cathen/12608c.htm

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hi Rebecca,

Thanks for that. I too don’t seem to know whats right and wrong. Hence I’ve been studying the catechism, recent commentaries and a little bit of jewish “how to be an honerable person” to try to reform my ways.

My upbringing wasn’t christian, so I feel uncomfortable around religious people because things that come naturally to them I don’t immediately get.

My studies are to try and relieve me of ignorance in relation to rightousness. This is personal effort and I have been putting in a lot of effort. I still pray for gods grace, but personal effort fly’s in the face of “Grace alone”.

If the catholic church believes that Grace is the start (albiet a big start) and the rest is our choice and our effort then I can work with this.

Any religion that believes me to be haughty for trying to improve myself isn’t a religion I want to be associated with.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_gratia

I understand, I am a convert from atheism.

I’ve done the same thing as you, and continue do so. I read a lot, study a lot, pray a lot.

I also think studying the spiritual practices of Judaism is a fine idea. Jesus is the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. An understanding of our roots as Christians is building a good foundation. This doesn’t require that you give up Jesus Christ and convert to Judaism.

Perhaps this approach is something to study:

hebrewcatholic.org/PrayerandSpirituality/prayerspirituali.html

and, I have always found this site helpful:

sacredspace.ie

The link between faith and works is the Holy Spirit, who builds on our nature. God knows your desire for Him, and this is the most righteous desire of all.

Peace.

 

[Cristiano]

Why do you have to resort to personal attacks?

Why don’t you stick to the issue that I brought up?

This is fundamentally about rightousness through grace (which I believe is fundamentally opposed to the concept of freewill) and rightousness through effort (also known as trying to be a better person).

I do not think that it was a personal attack, probably it could have been worded better but it sounded like a real concern. You might not like what he said but he was not the only one to think that way. With your statement you describe what Catholics call the “Pelegian Heresy”. That it is the thought that we do not need God’s graces to go to heaven, that means that we can earn our entrance in paradise. Usually an implicit assumption that underlines that take is the fact that some people have extremely high expectations for themselves but they cannot admit that they cannot accomplish everything by themselves. As a consequence they tend to dislike themselves because of their failures. The path they take is to try to learn more to enable themselves to succeed and that it is what you seem to describe. Again this is not a personal attack and I am just sharing what I have seen out of experience, including my own.

 

[Brett1980]

I do not think that it was a personal attack, probably it could have been worded better but it sounded like a real concern. You might not like what it said but he was not the only one to think that way. With your statement you describe what Catholics call the “Pelegian Heresy”. That it is the thought that we do not need God’s graces to go to heaven, that means that we can earn our entrance in paradise. Usually an implicit assumption that underlines that take is the fact that some people have extremely high expectations for themselves but they cannot admit that they cannot accomplish everything by themselves. As a consequence they tend to dislike themselves because of their failures. The path they take is to try to learn more to enable themselves to succeed and that it is what you seem to describe. Again this is not a personal attack and I am just sharing what I have seen out of experience, including my own.

Thanks Cristiano and no I don’t consider this a personal attack. I read the wiki article on Pelegian.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I am thinking of becoming a Noahide.

The fundamental reason for this is based on my conception of righteousness. I have been approaching catholicism like a jew. Before coming to Catholicism I was a reprobate sinner. When I began as a catholic I purchased many commentaries and books to try and rid myself of ignorance. My approach being that the study of religion will lead me to know what is righteousness and then act on it. I believe that righteousness can be learned.

Prior to attending a catholic church I attended a protestant church. When I asked what do I do to obtain righteousness they said that I had the wrong approach, that there was nothing I can do but wait on gods grace. Several years into my membership at the protestant church people began to dislike me because I was and remained a fundamentally flawed human being.

People say I have a low self esteem, having a flawed past this is probably justified. However, I want to do something about it. Christianity is fundamentaly opposed to the idea of learning righteousness. I have treated the catechism and the bible the same way a jew treats the torah.

A good catholic should know righteousness without being told because catholics believe in a natural law being written on mens hearts. They should seek grace through the eucharist. Bible study is secondary but primarily to know god, not to obtain righteousness.

What do you think?

Short answer? Sacraments. No one is righteousness save Jesus Christ.

What is righteousness? “To do the Will of God” The Father. Only Jesus fills this bill. Man cannot do it alone, thus we need Jesus in His sacraments.

The reason the Catholic Saints who walked in righteousness as St. Paul and the apostles is because “Christ lived in them” (**Galatians 2:20 yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me; insofar as I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who has loved me and given himself up for me. **21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.)

If one believes one can attain righteousnes by himself, falls into the trap of lucifer, who placed himself in pride and isolation from God.

If you have already been baptised and confirmed, God states this to St. Paul “MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR YOU”. (Philippians 4;13 I have the strength for everything through him who empowers me.)

Are you baptised and confirmed (sealed with the Holy Spirit) Brett?

The sacrament of reconciliation appears to be in order here. For the abundant gifts that come from the graces of God have been poured out in your reception of the sacraments so as to live and be in the righteousness (will of God) of Jesus Christ. Repent, have an examination of conscious and visit Jesus Christ in adoration.

Maybe a review of the sacramental life in Christ 101 could help you decide. Who knows maybe God is calling you into the desert to be a hermit or monk, so as to discover who Jesus really is.

To leave Christ and His body in the Catholic Church, for which Jesus Christ died for and to return from that which put Him to death in order to fulfill “the Jewish Old Covenant” who denied who Jesus was the messiah, is going backwards? Unless you deny the Christ, because as you know the Jews recorded in the gospels state John 1:11 “He came to what was his own, but his own people did not accept him”.

If you have recieved your sacraments of initiation into the body of Christ, then all that is needed is confession, and faith in Jesus Christ, so as open up the flood gates of God’s graces and mercy. Maybe your disposition was non- receptive to the graces of your sacraments, never the less the graces are there waiting for you to confess Jesus is Lord.

Peace be with you

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

I am thinking of becoming a Noahide.

The fundamental reason for this is based on my conception of righteousness. I have been approaching catholicism like a jew. Before coming to Catholicism I was a reprobate sinner. When I began as a catholic I purchased many commentaries and books to try and rid myself of ignorance. My approach being that the study of religion will lead me to know what is righteousness and then act on it. I believe that righteousness can be learned.

Prior to attending a catholic church I attended a protestant church. When I asked what do I do to obtain righteousness they said that I had the wrong approach, that there was nothing I can do but wait on gods grace. Several years into my membership at the protestant church people began to dislike me because I was and remained a fundamentally flawed human being.

People say I have a low self esteem, having a flawed past this is probably justified. However, I want to do something about it. Christianity is fundamentaly opposed to the idea of learning righteousness. I have treated the catechism and the bible the same way a jew treats the torah.

A good catholic should know righteousness without being told because catholics believe in a natural law being written on mens hearts. They should seek grace through the eucharist. Bible study is secondary but primarily to know god, not to obtain righteousness.

What do you think?

I’ve too also briefly considered becoming a Noachide (Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach) many years ago. Ultimately, I decided for myself that it wasn’t a satisfying faith, its tenets largely inferred and largely rabbincally post-Temple in origin. I was also not able to get consistent answers to Noachide protocols.