I'm thinking of leaving Catholicism to become a Jewish Noachide

[schaick]

I am thinking of becoming a Noahide.

The fundamental reason for this is based on my conception of righteousness. I have been approaching catholicism like a jew. Before coming to Catholicism I was a reprobate sinner. When I began as a catholic I purchased many commentaries and books to try and rid myself of ignorance. My approach being that the study of religion will lead me to know what is righteousness and then act on it. I believe that righteousness can be learned.

Prior to attending a catholic church I attended a protestant church. When I asked what do I do to obtain righteousness they said that I had the wrong approach, that there was nothing I can do but wait on gods grace. Several years into my membership at the protestant church people began to dislike me because I was and remained a fundamentally flawed human being.

People say I have a low self esteem, having a flawed past this is probably justified. However, I want to do something about it. Christianity is fundamentaly opposed to the idea of learning righteousness. I have treated the catechism and the bible the same way a jew treats the torah.

A good catholic should know righteousness without being told because catholics believe in a natural law being written on mens hearts. They should seek grace through the eucharist. Bible study is secondary but primarily to know god, not to obtain righteousness.

What do you think?

I think you would really benefit from reading:

The Pursuit Of Holiness, by Jerry Bridges

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Brett,

I am thinking of becoming a Noahide.

The fundamental reason for this is based on my conception of righteousness. I have been approaching catholicism like a jew. Before coming to Catholicism I was a reprobate sinner. When I began as a catholic I purchased many commentaries and books to try and rid myself of ignorance. My approach being that the study of religion will lead me to know what is righteousness and then act on it. I believe that righteousness can be learned.

Prior to attending a catholic church I attended a protestant church. When I asked what do I do to obtain righteousness they said that I had the wrong approach, that there was nothing I can do but wait on gods grace. Several years into my membership at the protestant church people began to dislike me because I was and remained a fundamentally flawed human being.

People say I have a low self esteem, having a flawed past this is probably justified. However, I want to do something about it. Christianity is fundamentaly opposed to the idea of learning righteousness. I have treated the catechism and the bible the same way a jew treats the torah.

A good catholic should know righteousness without being told because catholics believe in a natural law being written on mens hearts. They should seek grace through the eucharist. Bible study is secondary but primarily to know god, not to obtain righteousness.

What do you think?

I’m interested to know why you think studying to learn about righteousness can be dichotomized from the working of the Holy Spirit in your life. Maybe the Holy Spirit is simply using your studies as a way for you to get to know God better. No matter what, it is still God’s Grace at work in your life, don’t you think?

As another has stated earlier, God does not work against free will. The Catholic Church has never denied the value of personal effort to attain Grace. But it is a personal effort that itself is sustained by Grace. What do you think?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Neil_Anthony]

My approach being that the study of religion will lead me to know what is righteousness and then act on it. I believe that righteousness can be learned.

Dear Brett,

You are absolutely correct in wanting to apply your human efforts to work to become righteous. You don’t have to leave Catholicism. What you need to do is learn about more traditional Catholic spirituality. The most common spirituality that we find in the church today is aimed at people who are either broken or do not have enough motivation. There is a genuine catholic spirituality for someone like you who is called to work towards righteousness.

I just finished reading the first volume of a three-volume work “The Three Ages of the Spiritual Life” by Reginald Garigou-Lagrange. It provides a very in-depth description of how to grow in the spiritual life, with a double-emphasis on prayer and growing in virtue. The two really can not be separated. You will find that grace is something that doesn’t replace your efforts, but goes hand-in-hand with them.

If you want something that is easier reading I think you might like “The Way” by St. Josemaria Escriva. I found his spirituality to be a real wake-up call compared to what seemed like a theology of laziness in the church which was doing no good for me at all. At least now I know what areas I need to work on. I pray that one of those books will be of help to you.

 

[drw72]

I pursued the Noahide path for a few years. I was raised Catholic but after my parents divorced we became very lax. Once I became a teen I spent many years wandering from religion to religion. When I was about 35 years later I was attracted to Judaism and learned about being a Noahide.

One thing I noticed about most Noahides is that even with the seven mitzvot they were not satisfied. Many of them, including myself, wanted more. We seemed like wanna-be Jews. Merely being a Noahide was not satisfying or fulfilling.

A little over a year ago I found my way back to Mother Church but because of my venture into Judaism and the Noahide movement I learned a lot about Judaism and God.

I now have a better understanding of my faith and a new found respect for Jews. I am also finally satisfied and fulfilled being back in the Church.

My years of searching are over and I hope your decisions lead you in the direction you feel you need to go.

B"H

 

[meltzerboy]

I am thinking of becoming a Noahide.

The fundamental reason for this is based on my conception of righteousness. I have been approaching catholicism like a jew. Before coming to Catholicism I was a reprobate sinner. When I began as a catholic I purchased many commentaries and books to try and rid myself of ignorance. My approach being that the study of religion will lead me to know what is righteousness and then act on it. I believe that righteousness can be learned.

Prior to attending a catholic church I attended a protestant church. When I asked what do I do to obtain righteousness they said that I had the wrong approach, that there was nothing I can do but wait on gods grace. Several years into my membership at the protestant church people began to dislike me because I was and remained a fundamentally flawed human being.

People say I have a low self esteem, having a flawed past this is probably justified. However, I want to do something about it. Christianity is fundamentaly opposed to the idea of learning righteousness. I have treated the catechism and the bible the same way a jew treats the torah.

A good catholic should know righteousness without being told because catholics believe in a natural law being written on mens hearts. They should seek grace through the eucharist. Bible study is secondary but primarily to know god, not to obtain righteousness.

What do you think?

Brett, I wish you the best on your journey of faith. I would like to point out a few things about Judaism. Even though we believe strongly in good works and that we are spiritually rewarded for caring for our neighbor and loving G-d, these good deeds are not primarily meant to be a means of achieving righteousness with an eye toward our own salvation. On the contrary, they are for the purpose of loving and caring for those who need our help. Further, Jews do not believe Man can ever achieve perfection in the eyes of G-d. In a sense, we are not all that different from Catholics, in that we believe in G-d’s divine grace, even though we don’t speak of the Holy Spirit. It is G-d who helps us in our efforts and forgives us when we fall short, and it is G-d who looks into our hearts and deciphers our intentions, even when our actions do not measure up. No knowledgeable Jew would state otherwise. On Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement), there is a prayer that in effect absolves us of any vows we make toward G-d and our fellow man for the upcoming year, since we know in advance we will be unable to fulfill them completely. The commandments we obey from the Torah are to be followed to the best of our ability with an effort toward improvement; G-d does not expect perfection from any of us. Brett, I would suggest you re-examine Catholicism as well as study Judaism, and whatever decision you come to, I wish you all the best.

 

[Brett1980]

Well I went to confession today and sold most of my books on Judaism yesterday. I still kept some excerpts of the Talmud to remind me of “what is Judaism”. I guess my studies in Judaism have given me a new found respect for the jews.

An ancient christian Polycarp states: “it is by His grace you are saved, not of your own doing but by the will of God through Jesus Christ”

Although I am still searching for the theology behind study and good works.

I’ll investigate the book by St. Josemaria Escriva.

 

[GOMARUS]

Hi, Brett, there is a misconception of some that being a Noachide is becoming Jewish. It is not. Becoming Noachide is simply becoming a Gentile follower of the 7 Laws of Noah, rather than the 613 commandments of Judaism.

Furthermore, a Noachide is treated as second-class and not-quite-equal, with a Jew. Read Maimonides–Mishneh Torah, The Laws of Kings and their Wars. If one is OK with being treated as an inferior and condescendingly, this would not matter.
A Noachide is not allowed to join in Torah study in a synagogue.
You are not allowed study Kabbalah
Forget about marrying a Jewish Girl. Big No-No
You are not allowed to tie tefillin, that is only for Jews
Noachides are not allowed to form their own worship circles without Rabbinic supervision
A Noachide is always on the outside, in Judaism.

Like you I too was tempted to embrace Noachism, but the Jim Crow treatment meted out was more than I could stomach. I finally found my peace in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. I hope you find your peace as well

 

[Brett1980]

Hi, Brett, there is a misconception of some that being a Noachide is becoming Jewish. It is not. Becoming Noachide is simply becoming a Gentile follower of the 7 Laws of Noah, rather than the 613 commandments of Judaism.

Furthermore, a Noachide is treated as second-class and not-quite-equal, with a Jew. Read Maimonides–Mishneh Torah, The Laws of Kings and their Wars. If one is OK with being treated as an inferior and condescendingly, this would not matter.
A Noachide is not allowed to join in Torah study in a synagogue.
You are not allowed study Kabbalah
Forget about marrying a Jewish Girl. Big No-No
You are not allowed to tie tefillin, that is only for Jews
Noachides are not allowed to form their own worship circles without Rabbinic supervision
A Noachide is always on the outside, in Judaism.

Like you I too was tempted to embrace Noachism, but the Jim Crow treatment meted out was more than I could stomach. I finally found my peace in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. I hope you find your peace as well

Well yes, thankyou GOMARUS. Indeed I don’t wish to be treated like a second class citizen.

About the same time I started practicing Catholicism I also began buying books on Judaism (about 10 months ago). I also recently began listening to a rabbi and I was very impressed with what he said. I guess this study of both religions has come to a head and I really need to pick one. I wasn’t really thinking of the implications of whether or not to worship Christ when this idea came into my head. I was more thinking of a way of life that would lead to righteousness (or holiness if you prefer). This desire came because after some self reflection I realised I was thoroughly unimpressed with my own personal character. Moreover, I had some personal confusion due to studying the doctrines of both religions.

I have since purged myself of my books on Judaism except two, a book on the talmud and judaism in early christianity. I have kept these as a reference for how the old law was applied. Moreover, I have been to confession, renewed my acceptance of Christ as my lord and teacher.

 

[Robbinson]

Brett

I’ll pray for you in your search and journey. As a Jewish believer (Hebrew Catholic), I believe fundamentally the first and most critical question is whether you believe in, and accept, Jesus (Yeshua) as Lord and Messiah. If not, then, Judaism is perhaps where you are headed (in which case I would recommend Orthodox Judaism as they continue to look for the coming of the Messiah (who I believe they will ultimately recognize is Yeshua - Zechariah and Romans 11). If yes, then I believe Catholicism is the fullest expression of faith in Yeshua. That is where your study and prayer should focus on.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Brett1980]

Brett

I’ll pray for you in your search and journey. As a Jewish believer (Hebrew Catholic), I believe fundamentally the first and most critical question is whether you believe in, and accept, Jesus (Yeshua) as Lord and Messiah. If not, then, Judaism is perhaps where you are headed (in which case I would recommend Orthodox Judaism as they continue to look for the coming of the Messiah (who I believe they will ultimately recognize is Yeshua - Zechariah and Romans 11). If yes, then I believe Catholicism is the fullest expression of faith in Yeshua. That is where your study and prayer should focus on.

Blessings,

Brian

Thanks Robbinson. Well I hadn’t really thought about the messianic implications. Perhaps it would have been prudent to think of this before I made this post. Yes I love Jesus so I coudn’t reject him.

 

[meltzerboy]

Brett

I’ll pray for you in your search and journey. As a Jewish believer (Hebrew Catholic), I believe fundamentally the first and most critical question is whether you believe in, and accept, Jesus (Yeshua) as Lord and Messiah. If not, then, Judaism is perhaps where you are headed (in which case I would recommend Orthodox Judaism as they continue to look for the coming of the Messiah (who I believe they will ultimately recognize is Yeshua - Zechariah and Romans 11). If yes, then I believe Catholicism is the fullest expression of faith in Yeshua. That is where your study and prayer should focus on.

Blessings,

Brian

Almost all Jews continue to look for the coming of the Messiah: this would include Conservative Jews, Reconstructionist Jews, and Reform Jews, as well as Torah (Orthodox) Jews of all varieties (Traditional Orthodox, Modern Orthodox, Hasidic, and Haredi) and both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews. This belief is one of the “Thirteen Principles of Faith” of Maimonides. Perhaps so-called secular (cultural) Jews, which include agnostic Jews and atheist Jews, do not hold this belief, and, of course, neither do Messianic Jews. The divinity of Jesus, as you say, is definitely the sticking point.

 

[WesleyF]

Any religion that believes me to be haughty for trying to improve myself isn’t a religion I want to be associated with.

You are right. The Bible says “Strive for peace with all men, and** for the holiness** without which no one will see the Lord.” (Hebrews 12:14)

I quote something I wrote earlier today -
We are to take the approach that “it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me” (Gal 2:20). “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for** God is at work** in you,** both to will and to work** for his good pleasure.” (Phil 2:12-13). “As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.” (John 15:4)

We should take the approach that whatever good we do is actually done by God through us. But our free will is always a part of that equation. God won’t do anything that destroys our free will. Whatever we do is therefore done in co-operation with God’s grace.

 

[WesleyF]

The only thing that I have a problem with is the doing nothing part.

I think it is an over-simplification on Mother Angelica’s part. We certainly have to do things, but they are done in co-operation with the grace that comes from God. Think of it in terms of the vine and the branch analogy given by Jesus in John 15. The branch has to do something - bear fruit. But it can bear fruit only because it is rooted in the vine. The strength to bear fruit comes from the vine. In the same way, our strength to do good comes from the grace that God supplies. This is what Catholic teaching says. If we bear fruit, we inherit eternal life, if we don’t, we do not.

 

[Tonga]

Hi, Brett, there is a misconception of some that being a Noachide is becoming Jewish. It is not. Becoming Noachide is simply becoming a Gentile follower of the 7 Laws of Noah, rather than the 613 commandments of Judaism.

This is true.

Furthermore, a Noachide is treated as second-class and not-quite-equal, with a Jew.

This I disagree with. Noahides are not “second class”, but they are not Jews either.
There are certain things that are reserved for Jews to do, just as I am sure there are
certain things that are reserved for Catholics.

A Noachide is not allowed to join in Torah study in a synagogue.

This is false. We have two Noahides who regularly join us in services, and in Torah
study.

You are not allowed study Kabbalah

Most *Jews * don’t study kabbalah. The few classes I have attended have always
had non-Jews in them.

Forget about marrying a Jewish Girl. Big No-No

Of course not. That would create an intermarriage, and that is forbidden by Jewish law.
I suspect Catholics do not encourage “marrying out” either.

You are not allowed to tie tefillin, that is only for Jews

Yes, there are some things reserved for Jews only. Most religions have that, I would
suspect.

Noachides are not allowed to form their own worship circles without Rabbinic supervision

Not true, I have conversed with Noahides who had their own prayer/worship services without rabbinic guidance.I’ve never heard a rabbi say they could not.

A Noachide is always on the outside, in Judaism.

They are not considered Jews, there are some things they are not allowed to do, but overall they can observe many many more than just the 7 mitzvot if they choose. They
are welcomed into shuls and the community.

I would however encourage Brett to stay with being Catholic. There are not a lot of Noahides, there are few communities, and if they are unable to integrate into the Jewish
community, it’s a lonely existence.

 

[aroha]

Hi Brett
I dont know if you are aware but there is a hebrew/catholic group here you may be interested in having a look. I too have been study Torah with a Noahide group and enjoy it immensely it challenges my faith making me dig deeper.
I think it is more the evangelical christians who believe they are saved by “grace alone”.

aroha

 

[Brett1980]

Hi Brett
I dont know if you are aware but there is a hebrew/catholic group here you may be interested in having a look. I too have been study Torah with a Noahide group and enjoy it immensely it challenges my faith making me dig deeper.
I think it is more the evangelical christians who believe they are saved by “grace alone”.

aroha

Perhaps you are right about the evangelicals. I did attend a protestant church for several years before coming to Catholicism so my grounding in Christianity is largely protestant.

One thing that highly impressed me with Judaism is the immense amount of resources available to Jews to learn their faith (Talmud, Chumash, Maimonaides literature, Mishneh Torah) and the commitment to learn their faith is part of their faith (Torah study is considered a high achievement in Judaism).

 

[meltzerboy]

Perhaps you are right about the evangelicals. I did attend a protestant church for several years before coming to Catholicism so my grounding in Christianity is largely protestant.

One thing that highly impressed me with Judaism is the immense amount of resources available to Jews to learn their faith (Talmud, Chumash, Maimonaides literature, Mishneh Torah) and the commitment to learn their faith is part of their faith (Torah study is considered a high achievement in Judaism).

You’re correct about the emphasis on studying the Torah, at least in Torah (Orthodox) Judaism. Still, I always remember what my childhood Rabbi said so many years ago, which is quoted from I know not where: “Studying is not the ultimate, but the doing.” Judaism is an orthoprax religion more than an orthodox or creedal one. That is, the practice of Judaism is in effect the faith itself; but of course one has to have knowledge of what one is practicing. It is preeminently a religion based on good works for their intrinsic merit rather than in the hope of salvation.

 

[meltzerboy]

This is true.

This I disagree with. Noahides are not “second class”, but they are not Jews either.
There are certain things that are reserved for Jews to do, just as I am sure there are
certain things that are reserved for Catholics.

This is false. We have two Noahides who regularly join us in services, and in Torah
study.

Most *Jews * don’t study kabbalah. The few classes I have attended have always
had non-Jews in them.

Of course not. That would create an intermarriage, and that is forbidden by Jewish law.
I suspect Catholics do not encourage “marrying out” either.

Yes, there are some things reserved for Jews only. Most religions have that, I would
suspect.

Not true, I have conversed with Noahides who had their own prayer/worship services without rabbinic guidance.I’ve never heard a rabbi say they could not.

They are not considered Jews, there are some things they are not allowed to do, but overall they can observe many many more than just the 7 mitzvot if they choose. They
are welcomed into shuls and the community.

I would however encourage Brett to stay with being Catholic. There are not a lot of Noahides, there are few communities, and if they are unable to integrate into the Jewish
community, it’s a lonely existence.

Very nicely put and well-informed comments!

 

[swariffin]

Dear Brothers/Sisters,

After searching the internet for Noachide Judaism, I am getting interested into knowing more of it. The site said that it is not required for the follower to convert to Judaism. My question is, to my best knowledge, Judaism is passed by birth. Does Noachide Judaism means a mongoloid blood of mine can become a Judaism follower without becoming a Jew?

My second question, is it possible for a non Jew becoming a Jew?

 

[Brett1980]

Dear Brothers/Sisters,

After searching the internet for Noachide Judaism, I am getting interested into knowing more of it. The site said that it is not required for the follower to convert to Judaism. My question is, to my best knowledge, Judaism is passed by birth. Does Noachide Judaism means a mongoloid blood of mine can become a Judaism follower without becoming a Jew?

My second question, is it possible for a non Jew becoming a Jew?

A non-Jew can become a Jew but this is not required by Judaism. Anyone other than a Jew can become a Noachide.

That being said by doing this you no longer accept Jesus as lord. Hence, why I haven’t become a Noachide.