I'm very liberal, considering Catholicism.

[mercygate]

I second this. Although I would love for you to embrace the truth of the Catholic faith, I feel that the Episcopal faith would be easier for you to accept because it is far more liberal than the Catholic faith. Make no mistake, being Catholic in the modern world is extremely difficult. We are different than the rest of society and are held to a far greater moral standard. Our beliefs are offensive to many people. However, our doctrines and beliefs will never change. Liberal theologians and clergy have tried to change the faith over the last forty years but they have failed. The Church will never compromise with the modern worldview. If you hold “liberal” views, you will find the Catholic faith difficult to embrace. However, I encourage you to re-examine your beliefs and pray to God for guidance.

Although I was never politically very liberal, as a former High Church Anglican, I can say that my sojourn in the Episcopal Church enabled me to mature into a full-bore Catholic by degrees over time. There is such a spectrum there that you can try things on for size until one day you wake up and realize you are Catholic and you need to cross the Tiber.

 

[TMC]

There are many millions of good Catholics who happen to be liberal, just as there are many millions of good Catholics who happen to be conservative. This forum tends toward the politically conservative (to say the least). That is not true off all Catholics or all Catholic communities. You should talk to Catholics you know in real life, or better yet, to your local priests.

 

[jmcrae]

Hi all!

This has become a stumbling block for me. Part of me is really interested in becoming Catholic because a lot of the theology makes sense, but the other part of me is terrified of conservative clergy. I’m having a very hard time differentiating what is peoples opinions and what is the actual teaching of the Church.

I read somewhere that if a Catholic votes for a politician that is not pro-life that they are automatically excommunicated. Is that how it is?

Yes. Keep in mind, the pro-life position is, in fact, very liberal. One of the most important tenets of liberalism is, “A voice for every person, no matter how powerless.” The pro-life stand gives a voice to the unborn, the aged, and the extremely ill - and it’s hard to get much more powerless than that.

 

[fhansen]

The Church teaches the “primacy of conscience”-that we are not supposed to go against our own consciences and force ourselves-if such a thing is truly possible-to believe something we don’t. At the same time she teaches that she is right -on matters of faith and morals anyway. Her position is that, if a person were to agree with her 100% on these matters, they would be aligned with Gods’ will on them as well. Unless we were to receive a Damascus Road experience, I doubt that any of us could be in full agreement on all matters to begin with. Therefore, if the issues at hand are not central tenets of the faith and if you can give the Church the benefit of the doubt on the rest, then you can be sure that the Holy Spirit will guide you to the truth if you decide to cross the Tiber. Catholic conversion is a process.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, if I choose to join the Church it will be because I agree with what they teach on matters of faith. There are some faith issues which I still struggle with, such as Papal Infallibility and the Marian doctrines. I’m trying to sort those out too, but I also need to address the political stuff. Someone said it was “too limiting” to ask what EXACTLY is a Catholic supposed to believe…but how can I convert if I don’t know exactly that?

That’s a good question. You can approach the beliefs of the Catholic Church in two different ways,

First, you could attempt to read the whole Catechism, along with all of its source documents. This would give you a definitive list of all of the things that Catholics are supposed to believe. Then, you could go through the list and tick off all of the things that you disagree with or don’t understand, and spend the rest of your life going through them one at a time, trying to figure them out.

Second, you could say to yourself, Jesus Christ founded one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. He promised that it could never promulgate error, because it speaks with His voice. I trust Jesus - I can trust the Church. Therefore, everything that I read in the Catechism or hear from the Vatican, I can reasonably trust to be true. I will believe it because I believe Jesus.

IMHO, the second way is a whole lot easier than the first way. But sometimes you have to spend some time working on the first way, before you finally come to the second way and realize that, yes, you can trust Jesus to know what He is doing with His Church.

I understand that there are things that Catholics consider WISE, that perhaps SHOULD be believed…but I don’t think that it’s the same as saying it MUST be believed. I’m sure there’s some allowance for dissent, I just need to understand to what degree. If I find that I disagree with some things but that those things don’t make or break my Catholic faith, then I could convert. It’s not to say that I will forever disagree, maybe it is better to believe those things and the Holy Spirit will guide me in that direction, but for now, I am coming from a liberal background and I can’t just discard all my intellectual objections to some teachings, which is why I want to understand if they’re “MUST be believed things” or if there is any leeway. What would be the point in converting if the next time I vote I’ll be excommunicated??

You would be excommunicated if you voted for a candidate because of his stand in favour of killing off the unborn, the aged, and the ill, or if there were a candidate you could have voted for who is in favour of protecting the unborn, the aged, and the ill, who is not also in favour of other things that go against the Catholic faith, such as torture, embryonic stem cell research, genocide, etc.

(Saddam Hussein, for example, was very pro-life in the first sense, but a good Catholic could never vote for Saddam Hussein because of his stand on torture and genocide. Luckily, he’s not running for office, but I just throw him out there as an example of a pro-life candidate that a Catholic would not be able to vote for.)

 

[jmcrae]

I’m going to read through this link. I would like to know, however, whether or not this information is something that I have to agree with in order to be considered Catholic. There is just so much information regarding Catholicism that it can be overwhelming and like I said I have a hard time differentiating between opinions and official teachings.

Maybe someone could answer these for me…

I have to believe everything in the Catechism? (I think the answer is yes.)

Yes.

I have to believe everything in the Bible? (I think the answer is yes.)

Keeping in mind that the Bible uses a wide variety of literary styles, including poetry, myth, and fiction - yes - in that we are to believe the things that the authors intended to convey.

I have to believe any infallible statements the Pope makes? (Not sure if it’s required to believe these things in order to be Catholic.)

There are very few of these - but, yes.

I have to believe everything that comes out of the Vatican? (Not sure about the answer.)

No. Some of what comes out of the Vatican is the personal opinions of various members of the clergy. We are not required to agree with their personal opinions.

I have to believe everything my Bishop teaches? (Not sure here either.)

Hopefully, your Bishop teaches in accord with the Church, and as far as he does, yes. If he deviates from the teaching of the Church, you are free to follow the Church, instead. (In fact, you should.)

In areas of Church discipline, you always follow your Bishop, even if the Church discipline elsewhere is different. If the Bishop has set you free to make your own choice, then you do what seems best, to you, without attempting to impose your view on others.

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

Is that how it is?

Well, not exactly. But first, let me tell you one thing: do not tie in the Church with one party or another.

People have a tendency to presume that Catholicism automatically is in sync with the Republican Party. It is not. The media makes it look like Catholicism is this ultra-conservative organisation, but that isn’t true.

It’s true that Catholicism has some ideals that it shares with the Republican Party, like their mutual anti-abortion stance. But, it has discord with Republicans on many other issues too. For example, the Republican Party tends to support the death penalty. The Catholic Church, on the other hand, does not. The Vatican also is against the war in Iraq. The media never reported on this, but before US troops went in and invaded Iraq, the Vatican was very much opposed to the war and worked to broker a diplomatic solution. Blair and Rice, and a flurry of other diplomats, were in and out of the Vatican, making their cases with the Vatican’s leadership in peace.

Mind you, the Vatican was doing this even as public support for the Iraq War was high. Since then, the public has come to its senses. Funny thing, if the news media reported that the Vatican was against the war when the war was still popular, the Church would have suffered a lot of negative sentiment from the public, and you can be sure there would be a whole army of malcontented Americans complaining about the Vatican. In such a case, when the public would come around and be against the war too, they would forget that the Vatican was right all along. But by then it would already be too late; their anti-Catholic protests would be too cemented in their minds. It’s like with the French – Jacques Chirac was against the war, and all of a sudden the US made it like the French people were anti-American. Nevermind that they were longtime US allies. Nevermind that the Statue of Liberty was a French gift. Just eat your Freedom Fries and burn longstanding bridges. Now that the US overwhelmingly agrees with Chirac, did anyone apologise to the French? Did Americans come out and admit they were wrong? That’s the thing about people in this country: they insist they are always right. Always. I think the media is partially to blame for this; they didn’t examine Bush’s case for the war well enough, plus when you turn on to news channels, you always see people arguing and yelling at each other for or against something. The public picks that up and they end up being unwilling to compromise, unwilling for any real dialogue (not any of this rubbish with people yelling at each other for an hour, but real dialogue, real solutions). But, that’s beside the point; I just wanted to show how biased the US is against Catholicism and how a lot of people tend to be.

This is gonna be a challenge to do, but it’s important to learn to ignore the media and the public and how they portray the Church. They often have a slanted view and is frequently untruthful. This goes for both the news and for entertainment media. Even when the news media reports that a Bishop or the Vatican did one thing or another, you should never take it at face value. They often are irresponsible and stupid in how they report it. Always go back to the original source: what did the Bishop or the Vatican really say? They will paint it to look as if the Vatican sides with the Republican Party. It does not. They will make it look as if the Church officially has its feet in conservatism. It does not. The Church is not, and does not care to be, associated with one party or another. In reality, Catholicism is very liberal. It works for the rights of the poor and of workers – in fact, Leo XIII was the first major world leader who supported the right for workers to form labour unions.

Now, regarding excommunication for voting for pro-choicers, that is mostly untrue. Some Bishops said that Catholic pro-choice politicians would need to go to Confession before receiving Communion. I heard some reports about priests telling their parishioners that, but it really doesn’t have any weight unless if a Bishop or other superior says you have to. I don’t think any did. Some Bishops said that Catholic politicians in their dioceses have to go to Confession first, but a lot of other Bishops left it to the consciences of the individual politicians.

But, this still might be an issue of conscience. If you voted for a pro-choice politician, the question really is, why did you vote for that person? Did you vote for the person only because he or she is pro-choice? Or did you vote for the person because of other issues, but he or she just happens to be pro-choice? I think if you are te latter, you’re fine; like I noted above, no party fully adheres to the Catholic standard. But if you are the former, I would think you shouldn’t receive Communion even if your Bishop doesn’t lay down any rule barring you from doing that.

Some members of the clergy will tell you to vote for the pro-lifer, and it seems as if their quasi-endorsement is rooted in single-issue voting. I personally wouldn’t agree that’s the right thing to do – as important as abortion is, and as much as I hate it, it is just one issue of many.

(Continued below.)

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

(Continued.)

More importantly, I think we should examine you and what you believe. If you truly feel that you agree with Catholic theology (and it’s great that you do), I think you should examine closely your other stances and see if they are in harmony with other Catholic issues. If not, why? Can these two sides be reconciled?

I’m pretty liberal (though I’m anti-abortion all the way, unless if the mother’s life is in direct danger). I actually feel that being pro-life is a liberal stance. Being pro-life champions the life of a child. Abortion deprives him of the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Now there are those who will insist that women have the right to choose. I do believe people should have the right to do whatever they want, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone else. There’s the problem with abortion – it’s the killing of the kid. It isn’t an issue about the woman’s rights, but the kid’s.

There used to be the argument that life begins at birth and not at conception. I haven’t heard that argument in a long time, for some reason. But let’s examine this issue.

Pro-choicers may argue that life begins at birth, but they cannot conclusively show that it does. They have to at least concede the possibility that life begins at conception. Abortion, then, is a sort of Russian roulette, where players take a revolver, put only one bullet in there, then take turns shooting themselves in the head. Even though your chances of dying is 1 in 5, would you wanna play that stupid game?

Or let’s say that there’s a courtyard half-filled with people, half empty. If I went in there blindfolded with a loaded gun in one hand and a sharp sword in another, and just shot the gun and swayed the sword as I walked around, wouldn’t I still be culpable of doing such a stupid thing? There’s half a chance I would kill someone, but even if nobody dies, I still should be carted off to jail as soon as anyone can call 9-1-1 because of this stupid recklessness.

You can call a pro-choice stance a million different things. You can call it women’s rights. You can call it population control. You can call it “Every child a wanted child.” But that doesn’t change that it still involves killing a fetus. Murder is murder is murder. Hitler gave murder a fancy name too (the “Final Solution”) but a murder by any other name is just as foul.

Lastly, don’t be terrified of the clergy. Priests are there to help. While there are some who are grumps, most of them are sweet, pious men. Find one who you feel you can trust, and feel free to talk to him about your concerns. I think it’s a good idea to print out this thread and discuss it with the priest. Gain some trust there; you’ll be happy that you did.

 

[Letchitsa1]

Now, the Pope said (can’t remember the source, but I have seen it), about candidates, that one may vote for a pro-choice candidate, provided that the reason you do is not because you yourself support abortion. The US Catholic bishops took a much more conservative stance on it, but that’s it.

The pope’s words come from a letter he sent to Cardinal McCarrick, then the Cardinal Archbishop in Washington, DC, and he stated the following:

[N.B. A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.]

You can find a copy of that letter posted on lifesitenews, here. The relevant paragraph is at the very bottom.

I’d have to dig to find the relevant portion in the USCCB’s voting guide, but the USCCB itself echoed the pope’s word’s exactly. The “more conservative stance” came about when some bishops went so far as to make statements that there is no proportionate reasoning when one candidate is clearly pro-life, and I have also seen some make the statement that there is no proportionate reasoning they were aware of.

The crux of the problem revolves around the question of “What is proportionate reasoning?” and the definitions, as you can imagine, pretty much range the whole gambit from extremely conservative to extremely liberal. And of course, until the bishops define at least a little more clearly what proportionate reasons are - it will continue to be a source of disagreement.

 

[Letchitsa1]

JesuXPIPassio,

You oversimplified on relations with the French and left out their 20th century behavior - which certainly shows them in a different light - but very nicely said otherwise.

 

[KingAlfred]

“I don’t feel that pointing anyone toward anything less that what Christ intended is extremely irresponsible.”

I do.

 

[Letchitsa1]

If you can not in good conscience vote for a pro-life politician because of other issues and the only other choice in a pro-choice politician, you may choose not to vote. Voting in elections is not a required by the Catholic Church. Yet, I think it is impossible to keep faith and morals out of politics. The question is whose faith and *whose *morality?

Actually - if you read your catechism - you will find that the Church lists voting in elections as one of the duties of faithful citizenship so that is not true - the Church does expect you to vote if you are eligible to vote.

Do you have a Catechism yet? That explains Catholic faith and morals. (If you don’t have one yet, I recommend you get the greenish-grey thicker one as it has a bigger glossary, index and Biblical references in the back that makes it easier to find information in the main text.)

Very good choice, and the same version I would recommend, too. Also it is bound better than the paperback versions - so it stays together better under frequent use. If space is an issue, however, the smaller, hardback white one is also a good choice.

I suspect that you want to learn what the Catholic Church teaches and want to follow those teachings if you become Catholic. Sadly many life-long Catholics do not know and some who do know what the Church teaches reject some of her teachings—that’s what people often think of when they hear the term “liberal Catholic”. Converts don’t typically join a faith that they reject.

If you decide to pursue entrance into the Catholic Church there will be areas that cause you to struggle, not because of your political beliefs as much as because of your personal sin. No offense to you–we all sin. The fullness of the teachings of Christ are not easy to follow, and many stumble. Catholic moral teachings are not simply “no abortion, no homosexual relations.” Our teachings–particularly those on marriage–go much deeper into the relationship between Christ and His bride, the Church.

Nicely stated. I will also add too that if you are truly interested in learning all Catholicism teaches - it will be a lifetime of learning. I would recommend getting a catechism and a Bible (Catholic if you don’t already have one - and yes, there is a difference) and I would read. Mostly I would focus on the Catechism, as it will refer you back to the scriptural basis for the beliefs contained there. Of course - you don’t have to do this - but it is what I would do. When you come across parts you don’t understand or feel you have issues with - write them down and seek out the answers - either through a priest near where you’re at or ask away here. I would recommend going to Sunday mass, too. Then - around August/September time frame, if you still feel like joining - sign up for the parish RCIA program. You will need to go through RCIA if you are going to join the Church, but the beauty of the program is that it is also good for those still inquiring about the faith and maybe haven’t made up their minds yet whether they want to join or not. You can also go through it and not join, if that is what you choose.

Now - if the research seems too daunting or more than you were looking to get into - you can also just put any or all of it aside and not worry about it. Check out RCIA in the fall and go through that process. It will give you the minimum foundation you need to be a Catholic. If, during RCIA, you feel you are not ready or not called to be Catholic, you can always quit and go back later. Or, you can complete the program and just not join at Easter - there are folks who spend several years with RCIA while they sort everything out in their minds (a guy in our parish that just joined this past Easter spent 23 years sorting everything out!) - and that is perfectly acceptable. And, of course, you can do what most who join RCIA do - go through the course, join the Church at Easter and go forward in their lives as Catholics.

I would also say, however, don’t let one or two things hang you up…It is fine to agree with most of it and approach that with which you feel you do not agree with the approach of, “I don’t understand this, but Lord - help me to understand.” When I joined at 19, I wasn’t overly pro-life (definitely wasn’t pro-choice), Mary and Confession were huge stumbling blocks (as they are for most Protestants), and I had no problems with either a married clergy or women priests. In all honesty - I really probably should have waited, but I went through the process and joined anyways because I felt that was where I was supposed to be. I think someone summed it up well when they said “God meets us where we are”. I would say go with what faith you have, an open mind and a willingness to learn. Be willing to let God guide you to where He wills, and otherwise let God meet you where you are. If you’re open to His will in your life - you’ll wind up where He wants you to be. It might not be anywhere near what you imagined - but I can tell you one thing - it won’t be boring.

Good luck in your search and God bless.

 

[ErrorCMDR]

Hi all!

This has become a stumbling block for me. Part of me is really interested in becoming Catholic because a lot of the theology makes sense, but the other part of me is terrified of conservative clergy. I’m having a very hard time differentiating what is peoples opinions and what is the actual teaching of the Church.

I read somewhere that if a Catholic votes for a politician that is not pro-life that they are automatically excommunicated. Is that how it is?

I follow the “ends don’t justify the means” in that I wont vote for a war monger even if they are pro life. The end of abortion does not justify me voting for someone who will hurt my country and kill our military personnel.

Obama may have a pro choice view but I felt he is less likely to get us all killed.
McCain is pro life but he might get us killed
when I applied the Ends don’t justify the means ratio it made my choice clear. I have to say that I do hope he changes his view on abortion and that Biden becomes a real Catholic.

God Bless

EC

 

[siamesecat]

Keeping in mind that the Bible uses a wide variety of literary styles, including poetry, myth, and fiction - yes - in that we are to believe the things that the authors intended to convey.

How do we know what is myth and fiction v. what is truth? Could you give some examples, please?

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

You’ve all been helpful, thank you. I read through the post, but I’m too tired to ask anything else right now or formulate a thought out post. Just got home from work and have to be back in the AM.

I’ll be completely honest…I don’t like the idea of abortion very much at all and I was even against it as an atheist. I myself got pregnant at 18 and wouldn’t even consider abortion. I do have a problem voting for pro-life candidates however because of their stance on abstinence only education and contraceptives. The contraception issue is one that I do not agree with. EVEN if I’d agree it was sinful to use contraception, I think that the more people that use contraception and the more educated the youth is about sex the less abortions people will have. I rather people sin by using contraceptives than by harming the unborn. That’s my reasoning, I guess I’m too much of a realist. That’s all for now, I need to get some sleep.

 

[Neithan]

I’ll be completely honest…I don’t like the idea of abortion very much at all and I was even against it as an atheist. I myself got pregnant at 18 and wouldn’t even consider abortion. I do have a problem voting for pro-life candidates however because of their stance on abstinence only education and contraceptives. The contraception issue is one that I do not agree with. EVEN if I’d agree it was sinful to use contraception, I think that the more people that use contraception and the more educated the youth is about sex the less abortions people will have. I rather people sin by using contraceptives than by harming the unborn. That’s my reasoning, I guess I’m too much of a realist. That’s all for now, I need to get some sleep. [emphasis mine]

I would encourage you to pursue that line of argument with rigorous analysis. Part of the reasoning of the Church is that the “contraceptive mentality” i.e. the mentality that sex is primarily for pleasure only, is precisely what leads to abortions. Once contraception is in the mainstream, the pressure to allow abortion follows; it’s all part of a slippery slope. If people use contraceptives and get pregnant, all of a sudden the pregnancy is a problem, a mistake, and not the blessing it should be received as. That frame of mind is far more likely to see abortion as an emergency solution.
The difficulty of faith is suspending your own personal perspective on things in favour of a higher, greater authority, to trust that authority and believe its teachings. My conversion to the Church came partly though wrestling with her teachings on moral issues. Eventually I came to see the profound insight and how all Catholic morals are all pieces of one brilliant picture.

 

[yellowbicycle]

You’ve all been helpful, thank you. I read through the post, but I’m too tired to ask anything else right now or formulate a thought out post. Just got home from work and have to be back in the AM.

I’ll be completely honest…I don’t like the idea of abortion very much at all and I was even against it as an atheist. I myself got pregnant at 18 and wouldn’t even consider abortion. I do have a problem voting for pro-life candidates however because of their stance on abstinence only education and contraceptives. The contraception issue is one that I do not agree with. EVEN if I’d agree it was sinful to use contraception, I think that the more people that use contraception and the more educated the youth is about sex the less abortions people will have. I rather people sin by using contraceptives than by harming the unborn. That’s my reasoning, I guess I’m too much of a realist. That’s all for now, I need to get some sleep.

Welcome Doubtfire!
If you want to know what the Church teaches, I recommend you do the following:
Get a Cathechism
Get a Bible.

Read both. You’ll get it from there.

At my local Catholic bookstore, and I think on EWTN’s website, they have a study guide - it will help you get through BOTH the Cathechism and the Bible in a year, using less than 20 minutes a day (ha! I sound like one of those commercials for ab workouts- ‘get a flat tummy in no time at all!’). Anyway, I’m going to get that study guide and do this myself. I know it sounds like a big commitment of your time, but it will probably be worth it.

If time is an issue for you, I love love love my local Catholic radio station. You can find yours by just putting catholic radio into your google bar. You can probably listen to it (or any catholic radio station for that matter) over your computer. The catholic radio station obviously won’t tell you everything about the faith, but if you’re in your car, it’s a nice change of pace from listening to that awful Beyonce song other stations play over and over.
And I think they do a good job of explaining Catholic teachings. There’s Open Line - there’s a link of the front page of this website, and it’s a call-in show. People ask really good questions.

As another poster said, don’t listen to what OTHER people say the Catholic church is, especially the secular world. (Remember, that’s the same world that thinks that Beyonce song is good). Frankly, they don’t have a clue. The Cathechism IS what the Catholic Church teaches. It makes A TON of biblical references though, that’s why I think it’s a good idea to read them in tandem.

And lastly, some people understand the Catholic Church better if someone is actually standing in front of them teaching it. If you are that type of person, you might want to take an RCIA class. Don’t worry. They won’t press you into service or anything.

And lastly, if you can find a Eucharistic adoration, I suggest you go to the church and pray. Even if you don’t believe that the Eucharist is anything but bread, just go there and pray. It’s peaceful, it’s quiet. From your earlier posts, I understand you have at least one child, so I’m sure some peace and quiet is in short supply anyway.

One more thing. I struggle - constantly, I might add - with many church teachings. And I fall short of following them. Also constantly. I still consider myself a faithful Catholic. And by the way, I was excommunicated, and then I came back Not to get too hokey, but this is a journey, not a destination. I’m just sayin.

 

[EmBee]

Hi all!

This has become a stumbling block for me. Part of me is really interested in becoming Catholic because a lot of the theology makes sense, but the other part of me is terrified of conservative clergy. I’m having a very hard time differentiating what is peoples opinions and what is the actual teaching of the Church.

I read somewhere that if a Catholic votes for a politician that is not pro-life that they are automatically excommunicated. Is that how it is?

I could have written this post in July 2007! I was rather liberal minded, and now I’d consider myself a moderate who pulls left. Being Catholic made politics much more interesting (although not always as easy) for me. At some point, my interest in the Catholic faith boiled down to this: Catholic theology makes sense because it’s true!

Read the catechism for proper information, attend Mass and pray. If your interest persists, contact the DRE of your local parish and request a one-on-one meeting with him/her before starting RCIA (I say this because of my personal experience. My RCIA group had pretty watered down theology and moved very slowly thru concepts. I was able to arrange a one-on-one study with my DRE instead of taking the group RCIA classes and it was a fantastic experience!).

The Catholic Church did seem pretty crusty to me when I first started learning about Her. Full of rules and tradition (and still more Tradition ) with consequences and confession and priests and “you can touch this and stand here, but no you can’t do that” etc. But once I learned more of the liturgy and the reasons behind it all, it’s just so beautiful to be a part of! All rules have reasons. If you are unsure about the rule or the reason - just ask! I’ve been pleasantly surprised at how helpful (and refreshingly un-over-the-top-evangelical) Catholics are, lol.

–

 

[EmBee]

You’ve all been helpful, thank you. I read through the post, but I’m too tired to ask anything else right now or formulate a thought out post. Just got home from work and have to be back in the AM.

I’ll be completely honest…I don’t like the idea of abortion very much at all and I was even against it as an atheist. I myself got pregnant at 18 and wouldn’t even consider abortion. I do have a problem voting for pro-life candidates however because of their stance on abstinence only education and contraceptives. The contraception issue is one that I do not agree with. EVEN if I’d agree it was sinful to use contraception, I think that the more people that use contraception and the more educated the youth is about sex the less abortions people will have. I rather people sin by using contraceptives than by harming the unborn. That’s my reasoning, I guess I’m too much of a realist. That’s all for now, I need to get some sleep.

Just noticed the follow up, have to reply. Contraception was the (scratch that, IS the) hardest Church teaching I’ve encountered of them all! Below are my top reasons for why artificial birth control (ABC) is not so good.

Note: I still believe that sex-education should be all inclusive (not abstinence only). Not so sure how that affects the big-picture of it all, but I’m learning as I go. Getting my personal priorities straight before I fix the world

1a. ABC allows some younger people to pervert the meaning of sex. It is easier to be lackadaisical about who/when/why a person has sex because of the freedom from pregnancy granted by ABC. ABC negates the formula “sex makes babies” and turns it into “sex is fun”. Sex may very well be fun, but, especially for non-married people (myself included), the idea that sex is fun, while ignoring the “babies” part, may encourage the idea that sex is about using another person for personal pleasure.

1b: ABC allows some happily married & responsible people to pervert the meaning of sex. A couple trying to avoid (TTA) conception by using ABC may become pregnant anyway. They may welcome the surprise baby with open arms, or they may welcome it slightly begrudgingly, or they may abort the child.

1. Hormonal treatments that affect fertility are serious medicines. I took the pill for 7 years and once I stopped, I didn’t have a period for 6 months! The pill sped my natural 40 day cycle to a 28 day cycle. Medicines are also normally prescribed to fix a problem, but my fertility is not a problem that needs fixing. There are side-effects to the pill (higher risk of stroke/heart disease/etc), and there’s also talk of it being an abortifacient. I’ve seen studies that say it is and studies that say it isn’t. I haven’t had the time to really sort thru everything, but the possibility is a concern.
2. Not using ABC is a demonstration of my trust in God. I can train myself to listen to God and do what He calls me to do, but in the end I’m always interpreting Him and, ultimately, I have a chance of being wrong. Since God is involved in the making of every child, without ABC, I am trusting that God will not give me any more children than I can handle. Of course, discerning whether you should have sex or not is key, see #4.
3. Not using ABC opens dialog between husband & wife. If every time a couple has sex there is a possibility of have a child, there will be more discussion about when/why to have sex. I would also argue that being reminded that sex makes babies and that God is involved in the creation of every baby, would make sex more meaningful.
4. From an entirely Catholic perspective: there are two reasons for sex – union and procreation. Any sort of ABC severs the union between husband and wife because they are not able to give themselves fully to the other person. Sex takes two people and unites them as one, but only if there is a full giving of self between both people. By holding back fertility, the Church explains, you are holding back the most precious part of yourself – your ability to be instrumental in God’s ability to create life.

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[gardenswithkids]

Actually - if you read your catechism - **you will find that the Church lists voting in elections as one of the duties of faithful citizenship **so that is not true - the Church does expect you to vote if you are eligible to vote.

… I will also add too that if you are truly interested in learning all Catholicism teaches - it will be a lifetime of learning. …

Thank you. I stand corrected. After quick check of the Catechism Index, I found point 2240 which states: “Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote…”

My error demonstrates the later point Letchitsa made: learning what Catholicism teaches is a life long journey, (even for Catholics.)

Following God is also a lifelong journey, and we can never know all there is to know about Him either. While we want to have a good idea about Who and What we follow, at some point we can simply decide to follow. Jmcrae wrote something way back on post #45 that I think is well put.

You can approach the beliefs of the Catholic Church in two different ways,

First, you could attempt to read the whole Catechism, along with all of its source documents. This would give you a definitive list of all of the things that Catholics are supposed to believe. Then, you could go through the list and tick off all of the things that you disagree with or don’t understand, and spend the rest of your life going through them one at a time, trying to figure them out.

Second, you could say to yourself, Jesus Christ founded one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. He promised that it could never promulgate error, because it speaks with His voice. I trust Jesus - I can trust the Church. Therefore, everything that I read in the Catechism or hear from the Vatican, I can reasonably trust to be true. I will believe it because I believe Jesus.

IMHO, the second way is a whole lot easier than the first way. But sometimes you have to spend some time working on the first way, before you finally come to the second way and realize that, yes, you can trust Jesus to know what He is doing with His Church.