I'm very liberal, considering Catholicism.

[Charlemagne_II]

There is definitely a third option of God existing and not minding homosexuality that you left out.

Did God tell you that He doesn’t mind homosexual sex? Did God tell you that was a third option?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Doubtfire

I’m always interested in conversion stories. I am a convert myself. Sorry I can’t review the first 30 pages of this thread, so excuse me for asking a question that may have already been asked.

Is there a single reason that you can key in on, above all others, that turned you toward the Catholic faith?

Thanks.

 

[hellopeople]

There is definitely a third option of God existing and not minding homosexuality that you left out.

Did God tell you that He doesn’t mind homosexual sex? Did God tell you that was a third option?

Did God tell you DOES mind homosexuals? Either way, what I said is obviously a possibility.

 

[Musician]

I am so excited for you in your journey! Don’t let nay-sayers dissuade you. Some people can’t just be quiet if they don’t agree with you.
I think it is wonderful you are joining the Church!
And yes, God does love homosexuals as much as the rest of us…

 

[Memaw]

I am so excited for you in your journey! Don’t let nay-sayers dissuade you. Some people can’t just be quiet if they don’t agree with you.
I think it is wonderful you are joining the Church!
And yes, God does love homosexuals as much as the rest of us…

God loves the sinner, but not the sin. What did he tell those he forgave, “Go and Sin NO more” God Bless, Memaw

 

[jmcrae]

Did God tell you DOES mind homosexuals? Either way, what I said is obviously a possibility.

(Off topic, sorry!!) The Scriptures are very clear on the subject -God hates the homosexual act. Do you not believe that the Scriptures are (ultimately) from God?

 

[hellopeople]

(Off topic, sorry!!) The Scriptures are very clear on the subject -God hates the homosexual act. Do you not believe that the Scriptures are (ultimately) from God?

No, not really. Either way though, you can not say that God existing, but not condemning homosexuality is not an impossibility.

 

[Sheeniac]

No, not really. Either way though, you can not say that God existing, but not condemning homosexuality is not an impossibility.

Could you state that without so many negatives. Double and triple negatives make for a confusing statement,

I believe that since the Bible is God’s inspired Word, and He makes it pretty clear that homosexual acts are sins, that He is not happy with people sinning. If you see it another way, I’d like to hear your reasoning.

 

[hellopeople]

Could you state that without so many negatives. Double and triple negatives make for a confusing statement,

I believe that since the Bible is God’s inspired Word, and He makes it pretty clear that homosexual acts are sins, that He is not happy with people sinning. If you see it another way, I’d like to hear your reasoning.

If you don’t take the Bible as God’s inspired Word, than it is possible that God does not mind homosexuality. Even if it is the word of God, it still might not be completely right. There are passages in the OT that do NOT agree with Christianity or even Judaism.

 

[Sheeniac]

If you don’t take the Bible as God’s inspired Word, than it is possible that God does not mind homosexuality. Even if it is the word of God, it still might not be completely right. There are passages in the OT that do NOT agree with Christianity or even Judaism.

Well, that’s a true statement. But all of Christianity - and Judaism - believes the Bible / Jewish Scripture to be the Word of God. Otherwise - how are we to know Him? If we cannot know Him, why bother worshiping Him? In other words, our (maybe not yours) position is intrinsically tied in with the Bible being the inspired Word of God.

Not be completely right? Well, the Bible (OT) was written by an ancient people, and they had a different way of communicating. If you are talking about things we would consider contradictions, yes, there are some. But the Bible is salvation history, not a science book. They used phrases in a different way, and had less of an emphasis on facts. We moderns, on the other hand, believe it is all about the detail / the science/ the verifiable facts. Is our way superior? I’m biased - I would say yes - but I can still appreciate the differences in the approaches. So it is ‘right’, IMO, even if the details are not 100% factual. This belief, BTW, is one that is common in Scripture studies across Jewish, Protestant and Catholic scholars.

I’m in an Intro to Scripture class presented by my diocese (1st year out of 4), so much of what you say is addressed in the very beginning. Well - not specifically related to homosexuality.

re: passages not agreeing…

Indeed - the OT is considered less applicable than the NT to Christians. (I’m not a Jewish scholar by any means - but since there are 3 ‘schools’ of Judaism {Reform, Conservative, Orthodox} , I think your statement is at least partially true.) However, you are making a highly generalized statement and pretending / assuming that it applies to the specific argument you are making. I don’t see your connection. In less formal words - yeah, and so?

Christ (and His Church) maintains that the only ordered sexual relations are those between a married man and wife. Thus polygamy, adultery, homosexuality (the acts), and premarital sex are sins.

Interestingly/sadly, your words could be written by many of the leaders of the Mainline Prot. churches today. I’m assuming you aren’t a Christian, but your opinion of a third way isn’t far from what some say. If you aren’t a Christian, I’ll say that your opinions are valid (in that they are consistent with your logical premises). If you are a Christian, I’ll say you are dead wrong.

Obviously I think you are incorrect overall, but being a non-Christian would mean that you aren’t playing mental Twister! I’m not sure if you were expecting a ‘God hates fags’ type of response, but you won’t get that from most Catholics. I hope that God holds practicing homosexuals as less than fully responsible for their actions. I have several friends who are gay and I feel terrible that they are sinning. Of course, I sin as well - I feel terrible about that. The difference being is that I am aware of my sins and that I need to continually repent (esp since I don’t have my sainthood merit badge yet).

 

[Greg27]

While I cannot make your decision for you or act in stead of your conscience, I would advise you to think very carefully about joining the church if you are liberal in your views. The church is quite strict and conservative in a lot of areas and also demands personal assent to church teachings, not just theological matters (i.e. God is Trinue, there are seven sacraments, the Eucharist contains the real prescence of Christ) but also moral matters (abortion, masturbation, homosexual sex acts, and contraceptive use etc are always intrinsically evil) and if you dissent or disagree conservative Catholics will no doubt confront you on these issues and if you disagree you will be informed you are probably in a state of grave sin and perhaps even heresy and should not take part in the sacraments. Some more extreme Catholics may even go so far as to implicitly or explicitly counsel you to leave the church to stop contaminating it with dissent.

You also have to obey certain rules, i.e. Mass attendance, and the liability here is strict upon pain of mortal sin (i.e. there is no excuse or mitigating circumstances which can exclude culpability for failing in certain obligations in most cases).

In a nutshell the church is very demanding and quite rigid in the degree of assent and submission it expects from believers and those who join and become Catholics, and there is really little or no room to disagree or dissent from the teachings of the church.

Excommunication is sometimes bandied about as a threat by hardline conservative Catholics to browbeat other Catholics into accepting their views. Strictly speaking though excommunication is often misused as a threat since it is supposed to be a medicinal, not a punitive penalty (i.e. it is meant to rectify rather than punish) and only applied for the most serious offences against the Church and religion.

Excommunication is not frequently applied in practice and only applies summarily to a number of very serious offences under canon law, including procuring in an abortion or materially co-operating in the same; breaking the seal of confession; desecrating the Eucharistic species (i.e. if you took the host, threw it on the ground and stomped on it for example), assaulting the Pope; and schism, heresy or apostacy (i.e. deliberately leaving the Church for another group, post-baptismal denial of a Catholic dogma in a persistent and unrepenting way, or repudiating entirely and completely the Christian faith after accepting it and being baptised). It is more likely someone whose life or public views are very out of synch with the church’s teachings will be denied communion by the priest or Bishop distributing communion, which they have a lawful discretion to do, but in practice this happens when it is very clear the person is doing something the church regards as wrong and is public in their display of the wrongful behaviour (i.e. homosexual people in rainbow sashes coming into the church from a gay march presenting themselves for communion).

It is true that in the US conservative Bishops have excommunicated or threatened to excommunicate Catholics who agitated for change in the church’s teachings (i.e. the Call to Action group) or Pro-Choice Catholic politicians and their supporters. John Kerry faced some problems with this and one Canon lawyer apparently brought a suit to have him excommunicated for being Pro-Choice. On the other hand though, at least in my city, the Archbishop said Catholic politicians who voted for stem-cell research involving cells obtained from embryonic sources would need to examine their conscience before taking part in communion, but he would not excommunicate Catholic politicians or presume bad faith on the part of those wanting communion. In Australia at least, the view (excepting Cardinal Pell of Sydney) of the Bishops and Priests is that good faith is presumed on the part of those who approach the altar for communion and communion has only been refused for people who clearly have contempt for the church’s teachings in a public manner (Pell refused gay people who approached the altar in sashes for example).

I am not saying that joining the church is wrong or a bad choice, but certainly if you retain your liberal views on certain matters, it can create problems for you in terms of your conscience and whether you feel you are sincere in your convictions. The church is an organisation and like any other organisation it has its leadership which sets the rules and the agenda, and I think you should at least understand and accept these fully before you join. The leadership and laity of the church from the conservative wing of the church pretty much have the upper hand and have made it clear (at least they did so to me) that there is really no place for ‘liberals’ or ‘dissenters’ or ‘heretics’ in the fold of the church. It is very hard to fit in and live out your faith if you ask yourself on a daily basis if you are in mortal sin because you disagree with this or that teaching or you should stay away from all the sacraments because you risk taking them unworthily (and committing the mortal sin of sacrilege) because you don’t agree with this or that teaching, not to mention the problem of trying to see which teaching you can accept in conscience and which you can’t (the Cafeteria Catholic problem).

I think it is far better to join a church where your views and the views of the church leadership and congregation are in harmony. Such a faith journey is far more likely to be fruitful and joyous for you personally.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Well, to update everyone, I’m no longer very liberal…and I’m no longer considering Catholicism. I’m converting to Catholicism!!! Will be baptized this Easter!

Ofcourse, along with Catholicism, I converted from very liberal to very conservative. (Socially is what I’m speaking of, because I’m fiscally moderate). It kinds goes hand in hand to me. Either there is no God and who cares if gays get married, let them enjoy themselves while they’re on this earth, or God exists and homosexuality is a sin and marriage is sacred. (I just used that as an example).

Doubtfire:

Congratulations & welcome! I’m glad you found the Lord and His Church. or, Should I say that He found you? The angels and the heavenly hosts have been celebrating since you made this decision and will be celebrating even when on the day of your Baptism.

Great thing about “Coming to the Lord” “in the 9th hour”, the Reward you’ll get is the same as that those who’ve “been working all day” get.

I’m sure many of the “Swimmers” here are already describing the Joys of their first Communion - Relax and enjoy. You’ll never be closer to the Lord, until the next time you receive Him!

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Did God tell you DOES mind homosexuals? Either way, what I said is obviously a possibility.

Hellopeople:

God NEVER said He “minds Homosexuals” - He said he hates homosexual activity, because same sex activity (Like any sex outside of marriage*) not only separates those who do it from the One who made us, but it also does violence to the nature of all who engage in it (Natural Law Theory has been explained elsewhere - It’s the Philosophy that helped to end Slavery, Segregation & “Separate but Equal”) and to the society in which the people who engage in same sex activity live.

All of the Scriptures that were written on this subject were written for YOUR benefit, NOT your HARM. God made us, and like any Father, His prohibitions aren’t there to keep us away from GOOD things, but from things that can HARM and/or ENSLAVE us. That’s why St. Paul the Apostle gave us this I Corinthians 6:
Don’t you realize that those who do persist in doing wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or who cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is good for you. And even though “I am allowed to do anything,” I must not become a slave to anything. You say, “Food was made for the stomach, and the stomach for food.” (This is true, though someday God will do away with both of them.) But you can’t say that our bodies were made for sexual immorality. They were made for the Lord, and the Lord cares about our bodies. And God will raise us from the dead by his power, just as he raised our Lord from the dead.

Don’t you realize that your bodies are actually parts of Christ? Should a man take his body, which is part of Christ, and join it to a prostitute? Never! And don’t you realize that if a man joins himself to a prostitute, he becomes one body with her? For the Scriptures say, “The two are united into one.”
I Corinthians 6:9-16 NLT

I recommend you look at John Hearn’s Blog - DREADNOUGHT
johnheard.blogspot.com/

According to God’s Word and Natural Law, we aren’t made for Homosexuality. It harms those who practice it, their families and the communities they live in. I believe this has been demonstrated elsewhere in this Forum, and I know this isn’t the topic of this Thread, so I’m going to leave it at that.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Memaw]

Hellopeople:

God NEVER said He “minds Homosexuals” - He said he hates homosexual activity, because same sex activity (Like any sex outside of marriage*) not only separates those who do it from the One who made us, but it also does violence to the nature of all who engage in it (Natural Law Theory has been explained elsewhere - It’s the Philosophy that helped to end Slavery, Segregation & “Separate but Equal”) and to the society in which the people who engage in same sex activity live.

All of the Scriptures that were written on this subject were written for YOUR benefit, NOT your HARM. God made us, and like any Father, His prohibitions aren’t there to keep us away from GOOD things, but from things that can HARM and/or ENSLAVE us. That’s why St. Paul the Apostle gave us this I Corinthians 6:
Don’t you realize that those who do persist in doing wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or who cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is good for you. And even though “I am allowed to do anything,” I must not become a slave to anything. You say, “Food was made for the stomach, and the stomach for food.” (This is true, though someday God will do away with both of them.) But you can’t say that our bodies were made for sexual immorality. They were made for the Lord, and the Lord cares about our bodies. And God will raise us from the dead by his power, just as he raised our Lord from the dead.

Don’t you realize that your bodies are actually parts of Christ? Should a man take his body, which is part of Christ, and join it to a prostitute? Never! And don’t you realize that if a man joins himself to a prostitute, he becomes one body with her? For the Scriptures say, “The two are united into one.”
I Corinthians 6:9-16 NLT

I recommend you look at John Hearn’s Blog - DREADNOUGHT
johnheard.blogspot.com/

According to God’s Word and Natural Law, we aren’t made for Homosexuality. It harms those who practice it, their families and the communities they live in. I believe this has been demonstrated elsewhere in this Forum, and I know this isn’t the topic of this Thread, so I’m going to leave it at that.

In Christ, Michael

Thank you Michael and God Bless, Memaw.