Images

[Huguenot]

katewithak:

Understood-you have one mediator, the Lord Himself. We have a mediatrix as well, because Catholics frequently sin.

I must be a good Catholic then !!!

 

[katewithak]

Huguenot:

I must be a good Catholic then !!!

And you have a mediatrix, whether you know it or not. You do not have to accept the validity of the Holy Mother in order to be a recipient of her mediation on your behalf.You do not have to be a Catholic in order to be a recipient of her actions on your behalf. You do not even have to be a Christian to be a recipeint of her actions on your behalf.

 

[Huguenot]

katewithak:

I think it is incorrect to say American Catholics try to convert Protestants to Catholicism. Protestants are Protestants because they were Catholic and left. We don’t try to convert Protestants. We ask you not to throw the baby out with the bath water, that’s all.

Maybe YOU don’t try to convert us, but some SOME of you do …I’ve even read some “pages” entirely devoted to this, where somebody --but I don’t remember his name, Kasper or Kaspar, something like that–explains to Catholics how to convert us…
On this very site, we are listed as heretics, have you clicked on “heresies”, or “greater heresies”, I don’t remember the exact title, in the menu ???
I’ve visited several Catholic sites in French and I’ve never seen one listing us as heretics …
I was not a Catholic, I was an atheist …

 

[Kevan]

katewithak:

Why are you having a problem with this? I told you before, yes.

You don’t really need a grammatical explanation, do you?

If I were to ask “Are you male or female?” an answer of “yes” simply evades the question. If I were to ask “Do you eat meat, or do you eat vegetables only?” and you answered “yes,” I would assume that you meant to imply that you eat meat, even though an answer of “yes” is technically nonsense.

When I asked whether you ask saints only to pray for you, or whether you also ask them to bestow favors and blessings as well, an answer of “yes” is obviously not addressing the question directly, although one might infer legitimately that you wish to affirm the latter of the two choices.

Therefore, when you later wrote that “All things necessary come from God,” it seemed to imply that the saints do not bestow favors and blessings, but only God does. This would, of course, be a contradiction, and I didn’t want to think that you were contradicting yourself unless you did, indeed, intend to do so.

So I repeatedly asked for a direct answer, such as exoflare provided.

 

[katewithak]

Huguenot:

Maybe YOU don’t try to convert us, but some SOME of you do …I’ve even read some “pages” entirely devoted to this, where somebody --but I don’t remember his name, Kasper or Kaspar, something like that–explains to Catholics how to convert us…
On this very site, we are listed as heretics, have you clicked on “heresies”, or “greater heresies”, I don’t remember the exact title, in the menu ???
I’ve visited several Catholic sites in French and I’ve never seen one listing us as heretics …
I was not a Catholic, I was an atheist …

Oh dear, I am not talking about you perse. I am talking about the Protestant Church. It is heretical since it rose up as the consequence of a Catholic priest who rejected Catholicism and went nutty. Therefore heretical. Occasionally we have priests who do this. Unfortunately for Luther, he couldn’t stop what he started. Now there is a contingent who say that Protestants are not heretics because in our modern age they are removed from the times that Protestantism began- they were born into Protestantism therefore they are not heretics. I don’t know why this contingent does not say the same thing about pagans? Most of the early pagans were born into it- does that mean paganistic teachings are not heretical?

 

[NonDenom]

Kevan! Do you actually have an issue with IMAGES instead? That is what I am seeing, you keep stressing the issue of IMAGES.

Do you belong to a church that is plain and dull and void of anything that looks religious? Meaning that if Christians were to be highly persecuted and convicted on evidence of belief in Christianity would you be indictable?

You walk into my Church, you will find sufficient evidence to convict our group of Christianity. We have the 14 Stations of the Cross, We have kneelers, we have crosses hung everywhere. We have a tabernacle that houses the “Real Presence of Christ” We have the Crucifix hanging front and center in the Sanctuary. We have a statue of Jesus. Yes and we have a statue of Mary as well.

Now if you walk in my brother’s church where he is the Pentecostal Pastor, it is dull, plain, void of anything. The only thing that is evidence of Christianity is the Hymnals.

When I have sat in his church alone, I feel nothing. It just might as well be a convention room or a civic center. There is nothing there to inspire me with Godly and pious thoughts.

Now when I sit in my church, I feel the presence of the Trinity, my senses are activated by our imagery of all that is present. I am moved to pray to God when I am alone in this church.

Now lets take a look at each others home. Could the contents of your home present enough evidence to convict you of Christianity? Having a Bible is not sufficient since the vast majority of non-christians have a bible stashed somewhere in their house. So is there any thing else that would convict you of being a christian?

In my brother’s house, there is only the bible. nothing else.

In my house, we have a sideboard that acts as our prayer station. Here we have votive candles, Crucifixes, pictures of Christ, a couple statues of Christ to help ponder his being, one statue of Mary, and on the wall, we have about a dozen or so Crosses of differing designs. Every room has a cross in it if not a crucifix. Everyroom has a hand woven cross made from the Palm leaves given out on Palm Sunday that I have made myself. And last but not least, several Bibles. I have enough in my house to condemn me to death!

I also have enough stuff in my cubicle at work to convict me of christianity as well.

OUR IMAGES ARE VERY IMPORTANT TO US. WE DON’T WORSHIIP THEM, THEY ARE THERE AS A VISUAGE REMINDER OF WHAT OUR FAITH OF CHRISTIANITY IS ABOUT AND A LASTING TRIBUTE TO THAT PERSON.

If images are a problem, then think about the people that have “I love myself walls”. These walls that have their awards, plagues, ribbons, pictures of them shaking hands of someone of notoriety, etc, etc, etc. You know what I mean.

Also think about this. Think about the homage paid to monuments where people are seen leaving candles burning at the Lincoln Memorial, Vietnam War Memorial,etc, etc, etc. If somebody came forward in time to the Lincoln Monument, they were probably believe that to be a temple to the God Lincoln…

Just think about every town that has a statue of some famous person!

Images are very important to nearly everyone. Why do we have photo’s and paintings of our loved ones? THE NEED FOR REMEMBRANCE IN WHAT THEY DID FOR US!

Just because we place burning candle with some offered prayers does not mean we are worshiping or offering those prayers to those portrayed in the Image.

WOW
He who dies with the most images, wins.

Guess your the winner!

 

[katewithak]

NonDenom:

WOW
He who dies with the most images, wins.

Guess your the winner!

No, Christ wins
Remember our images are of people within the Body of Christ who have fulfilled Christianity most perfectly. Those that are as close to a perfect disciple of Christ as one can be. They have fulfilled the Gospel. As a result, we can also follow more perfectly. As a Christian, you of course would rejoice that there are so many excellent disciples and that their pictures are on Catholic walls.

 

[Kevan]

exoflare:

This deposit of the faith remains the same regardless of who tells you what, so what any given Catholic “thinks and does” doesn’t matter so much as what the Church teaches.

It doesn’t matter as much, but it still matters. When an outsider objects to something Catholic, he’s referring to actual Catholicism. If every Catholic he knows is doing something in the name of Catholicism, and the priests are not vehemently opposing it and disciplining offenders, he has a right to consider it Catholicism.

The majority of those who call themselves “Catholic” for example, have no problem with artificial birth control

Those folks, though, are not doing it as Catholicism. They are disobeying the Church and are quick to tell you so, and the Church clearly opposes the practice without mincing words. A faithful priest, I suppose, teaches his people that this sin must be confessed, and he hears it confessed every week by the same people.

I looked just now at what katewithak wrote, and I need to ask which part exactly did I contradict?

I explain this in the post just above, where I point out that katewithak implied that the saints bestow the blessings.

I think this quote explains the desired mindset pretty well:

If I wanted someone to pray for me, I wouldn’t say “Please heal me” or “Please protect me as I travel” or “Please turn my career around.”

Bellarmine prescribes a use of language with which I am unfamiliar. Can you offer any example from daily life where we ask someone to give us something or to do something and we really mean for someone else to do it, knowing that the one we’re addressing has no power to do what we’re asking other than to ask someone higher up to do it?

I’ve meditated on this for some time, now, and I can’t come up with a single instance.

 

[katewithak]

Kevan:

It doesn’t matter as much, but it still matters. When an outsider objects to something Catholic, he’s referring to actual Catholicism. If every Catholic he knows is doing something in the name of Catholicism, and the priests are not vehemently opposing it and disciplining offenders, he has a right to consider it Catholicism.Those folks, though, are not doing it as Catholicism. They are disobeying the Church and are quick to tell you so, and the Church clearly opposes the practice without mincing words. A faithful priest, I suppose, teaches his people that this sin must be confessed, and he hears it confessed every week by the same people.I explain this in the post just above, where I point out that katewithak implied that the saints bestow the blessings.If I wanted someone to pray for me, I wouldn’t say “Please heal me” or “Please protect me as I travel” or “Please turn my career around.”

Bellarmine prescribes a use of language with which I am unfamiliar. Can you offer any example from daily life where we ask someone to give us something or to do something and we really mean for someone else to do it, knowing that the one we’re addressing has no power to do what we’re asking other than to ask someone higher up to do it?

I’ve meditated on this for some time, now, and I can’t come up with a single instance.

You say:
If I wanted someone to pray for me, I wouldn’t say “Please heal me” or “Please protect me as I travel” or “Please turn my career around.”
I say: No, but you might ask them to ask God for the favor.

You say:
Bellarmine prescribes a use of language with which I am unfamiliar. Can you offer any example from daily life where we ask someone to give us something or to do something and we really mean for someone else to do it, knowing that the one we’re addressing has no power to do what we’re asking other than to ask someone higher up to do it?
I say:

1. You remind me of the guy who works for a corporation. You simply go over the heads of your superiors straight to the boss. Works great if you don’t get fired for it. But frequently your boss is the one you ask for a raise and he has to get the go ahead from his boss. Or how about calling the receptionist and telling her you really need the doctor to treat you today, not tomorrow.
   Or the teachers aide- telling her you need the professor to hear your plea for a conference or tutoring.
   Actually the person we are asking does have power with God. It is not as if they have no power, their pwer is with God. Just like the wedding at cana. The Holy Mother first evidenced this when she convinced Jesus to provide more wine for the wedding party, something he clearly did not want to do. But he did what his mother asked. We follow that logic with our saints. If we are not worthy to be listened to, perhaps he will listen to them.
2. Their “power” comes from their fiat. They have responded and cooperated with God in a fashion that is pleasing to Him. Because they have said yes so well, and voluntarily cooperated so well, it is a form of blessing they have bestowed. Mary blessed us with her example. Mother Teresa of Calcutta blessed us with her example. Edith Stein blessed us with her example. St. Francis of Assisi blessed us with his example. It is incorrect to say they have no blessings to bestow on us. They have already bestowed those blessings by their examples.

 

[katewithak]

Kevan:

You don’t really need a grammatical explanation, do you?

If I were to ask “Are you male or female?” an answer of “yes” simply evades the question. If I were to ask “Do you eat meat, or do you eat vegetables only?” and you answered “yes,” I would assume that you meant to imply that you eat meat, even though an answer of “yes” is technically nonsense.

When I asked whether you ask saints only to pray for you, or whether you also ask them to bestow favors and blessings as well, an answer of “yes” is obviously not addressing the question directly, although one might infer legitimately that you wish to affirm the latter of the two choices.

Therefore, when you later wrote that “All things necessary come from God,” it seemed to imply that the saints do not bestow favors and blessings, but only God does. This would, of course, be a contradiction, and I didn’t want to think that you were contradicting yourself unless you did, indeed, intend to do so.

So I repeatedly asked for a direct answer, such as exoflare provided.

Every saint has a particular charism a particular gift from God which he or she is known for. So yes, I might ask St. Anthonly for help in finding lost keys or St. Jude with an impossible case. Yes is the only answer because whether all Catholics like to admit it, we do pray in all of the ways mentioned above. It is not an either or like are you a vegetarian or do you eat meat. It is a wholeness, so yes is a perfectly appropriate answer. Youare looking for seperate divergent things and I can’t give you that. The answer is simply yes, that is what we do. We ask the Saint with the particular charism, we read their lives and works, we meditate, we follow their examples, they are God’s gift to us.

 

[JoeyWarren]

NonDenom:

WOW
He who dies with the most images, wins.

Guess your the winner!

LOL

 

[JoeyWarren]

katewithak:

We ask the Saint with the particular charism, we read their lives and works, we meditate, we follow their examples, they are God’s gift to us.

Let me add:

Everyone that is in heaven is a saint. The ones we recgonize as Saints by Name are the ones that we use as a calibration standard of the perfect role model. Just because we officially canonized them does not make them more of a saint then all others who are already in heaven.

Each of these have lived an exemplary life which we believe to be as close to christlike as possible in all his teachings in the Gospels.

Actually the bible has examples of talking to those already in heaven, you just have to seek and you will find.

And we have likenesses of these “Role Models” either in Picture form or Statue form.

Just as you have pictures of your good friends and family.

Our “Role Models” are our good friends.

 

[katewithak]

JoeyWarren:

Let me add:

Everyone that is in heaven is a saint. The ones we recgonize as Saints by Name are the ones that we use as a calibration standard of the perfect role model. Just because we officially canonized them does not make them more of a saint then all others who are already in heaven.

Each of these have lived an exemplary life which we believe to be as close to christlike as possible in all his teachings in the Gospels.

Actually the bible has examples of talking to those already in heaven, you just have to seek and you will find.

And we have likenesses of these “Role Models” either in Picture form or Statue form.

Just as you have pictures of your good friends and family.

Our “Role Models” are our good friends.

Yes, Joey, very well put. But due to our relationship in the Body of Christ, our role models are also family.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Kevan:

I Under the new covenant the priesthood is done away and we have access into the Holy of Holies (the inner sanctum of the temple) through our high priest, Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10:19). He is the mediator between God and men (1 Tim 2:5). That is the Protestant belief, and it differs quite a bit from the Jewish belief.
QUOTE]

New Thread!

 

[JoeyWarren]

New Thread!

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1238753#post1238753

 

[JoeyWarren]

katewithak:

Yes, Joey, very well put. But due to our relationship in the Body of Christ, our role models are also family.

AMEN!!!

 

[Kevan]

katewithak:

You say:
If I wanted someone to pray for me, I wouldn’t say “Please heal me” or “Please protect me as I travel” or “Please turn my career around.”
I say: No, but you might ask them to ask God for the favor.

Kate, you completely failed to understand my post. I said “I wouldn’t say…” You replied that I might say something different.

Of course I would. That was my whole point.

But exoflare claimed that the first form of expression is legitimate, as in “St. Peter, save me.” If I wanted God to save me, I wouldn’t ask Peter to save me. I’d only ask Peter to pray for me.

 

[katewithak]

Kevan:

Kate, you completely failed to understand my post. I said “I wouldn’t say…” You replied that I might say something different.

Of course I would. That was my whole point.

But exoflare claimed that the first form of expression is legitimate, as in “St. Peter, save me.” If I wanted God to save me, I wouldn’t ask Peter to save me. I’d only ask Peter to pray for me.

Excuse me. I fail to see the difference. You don’t want Peter to save you, just pray for you. What is is you want Peter to pray for, if not to save you? Perhaps you are suggesting only that Peter recite the Psalms or something?

 

[Kevan]

katewithak:

Youare looking for seperate divergent things and I can’t give you that. The answer is simply yes, that is what we do.

The question I asked was,

In your interaction with departed saints, is it correct to say that you pray to them, or do you only ask them to pray for you? Or, stated another way, is it correct Catholic practice to ask the saints to do things for you and give things to you (or to others), or must you merely ask them to ask God to grant such favors and blessings?

The words “only” and “merely” make the two choices mutually exclusive. If the first is true (“Is it correct to say that you pray to them”), the second is false (“do you ONLY ask them to pray for you”). And I understand you to affirm that the first is true.

 

[katewithak]

Kevan:

The question I asked was, The words “only” and “merely” make the two choices mutually exclusive. If the first is true (“Is it correct to say that you pray to them”), the second is false (“do you ONLY ask them to pray for you”). And I understand you to affirm that the first is true.

I think at this point you had better define your meaing of prayer. What exactly are you asking? I am sorry- I fail to see where you asked me if the words only and merely are mutually exclusive choices? Which post was that?