The verse I couldn’t write yesterday are :
Huguenot, what does your Bible’s version of Titus 3:9-11 say?
Jesus is not a hero, He is GOD !
In what language ??? I use different versions in four different languages …
English, if you please.
If you were to re-read my earlier posts, you might see where the misunderstanding occurred. The words you are now using are a conflation of ideas which I never made. Rather than try to untangle them, let me restate what I said earlier:
So we agree? I argue that using such language when addressing a saint is nonsense if you don’t intend for the saint himself to do the requested thing.
One in what way? It begins to sound like saints have acquired divine power and can now do what God can do.
Obviously I’m alluding to the discussion with katewithak, where some of this came up. I assumed that you had read it.
If that idea isn’t handled correctly, it leads to superstition and idolatry. I want to see if anyone can render a rational, internally consistent explication of the doctrine. Assertions are easy to make; testimonies are freely available everywhere from Arianism to Zoroastrianism; but I’m interested in clear, sustained examination. Only then can I find out whether Catholics even agree on their religion, and whether the ideas hold water.
Here is what we believe. It is easy to find. Right here on CAtholic Answers. Why don’t you try reading this instead of asking us, for obviously we do not have the ability to explain it to you in a way acceptable to you. This link to another page on this site addresses all of your questions.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.aspIf you were to re-read my earlier posts, you might see where the misunderstanding occurred. The words you are now using are a conflation of ideas which I never made. Rather than try to untangle them, let me restate what I said earlier:
(1) When millions of Catholics do something as part of their religion, and the Church does not oppose them, then the Church shares the responsibility and an onlooker has a right to call it Catholicism, even if it contradicts the CCC.
(2) Your example regarding artificial birth control is not valid because the offenders are not doing it as part of their religion. In fact, they readily admit that they are disobeying the Church. Priests (presumably) teach their people that it is a sin that requires confession. Therefore, if an anticatholic happened to be opposed to artificial birth control, he would not be justified in criticizing the Church for the large number of members who engage in this practice.
These are the ideas I originally wrote, but I have reworded them here.
So we agree? I argue that using such language when addressing a saint is nonsense if you don’t intend for the saint himself to do the requested thing.One in what way? It begins to sound like saints have acquired divine power and can now do what God can dbviously I’m alluding to the discussion with katewithak, where some of this came up. I assumed that you had read it.
Here’s why I ask: I can understand petitioning a lower officer if the power to do a thing has been delegated downward to him, but I find preposterous Bellarmine’s struggle to justify petitioning the lower officer when you have no belief that he, himself, can do what you ask.
Certainly the lower officer can carry your request up to the one who has the power. In such a case, you ask him to carry the message, use his influence, sign your petition, put in a good word, or whatever. But if you say “hire me” or “heal me” or “turn my career around,” it can only mean that you think he has the ability to do it (or, at least, to try to do it).
So I’m trying to find out exactly what you believe about this issue that divides Catholics and Protestants.If that idea isn’t handled correctly, it leads to superstition and idolatry. I want to see if anyone can render a rational, internally consistent explication of the doctrine. Assertions are easy to make; testimonies are freely available everywhere from Arianism to Zoroastrianism; but I’m interested in clear, sustained examination. Only then can I find out whether Catholics even agree on their religion, and whether the ideas hold water.
Okay, I read it.
In point 1, what exactly do you mean by “oppose”… do you mean just declaring anything against the matter at all?
Then that’s your own personal opinion. No one’s forcing you or anyone to use language like this anyway.
Again, I have not seen heaven myself, so personally I don’t know! Haven’t you heard of those saints who were even able to perform miracles like bilocation and healing and reading people’s hearts? These were obviously done only by special graces from God, but informally it would not be unusual to refer to something like “Saint Peter restores Tabitha to life” (Acts 9). So what, then? Like you just said, it begins to sound like mere people have acquired divine power and can now do what God can do! If stuff like this was done by people on earth, how much more do you guess the people in heaven might have been blessed with access to God’s power?One in what way? It begins to sound like saints have acquired divine power and can now do what God can d
I think you’re probably being too unrealistically rigid in your thinking. Anyway, Bellarmine wasn’t “struggling” to justify anything. There is no dispute at all about whether it’s somehow “okay” to petition saints for help, despite the hangups anyone else may have with it. He was only explaining the meaning of a certain use of language.
Let me ask you something. In the case of Acts 9 that I mentioned above, would you fault me for saying that “Peter raises Tabitha from the dead”?
I only hope you can dish out such “internally consistent explications” as well as you seem to demand them, should some Muslim ever ask you to explain all the mechanics of the Trinity to his liking… I already told you, spiritual realities are not always easily explained by physical means. I’m beginning to understand more and more why Jesus always used parables, though…
I guess my problem is I don’t see you asking any questions. I see you making a lot of screwy statements about Catholics and Catholicism. I have yet to see an actual sincere question. Perhaps if you asked an actual question, and not a veiled opinion, you would receive an answer. In any case, the CA tract I referred you to is pretty much the bulk of what Catholics believe. If you have a question not answered there, I don’t think there is an answer to the “question”.Okay, I read it.
Know what? It doesn’t say a thing about the questions I asked.
That article (1) presents the scriptural case for the intercession of the saints and (2) quotes some Fathers (and Origen, who was not a Father) affirming the intercession of the saints.
Check back and see if I ever denied the intercession of the saints. You won’t find it, because I didn’t. So the article is beside the point.
Exoflare is doing fine with the questions I’m asking. Fear not, the cause of Rome is not yet lost. A muscular apologist can thread his way through any Protestant challenge.
I’ve seen people who want to ask questions just to provoke… I don’t think that’s what this guy is doing, though. He is just unclear on some of the details, which I can understand. We all have different styles of learning that work best for each of us. If anything, I think he just needs to kind of let his mind “outside the box” a little. But I do think thus far his questions are sincere.
Oh, exoflare I think you are probably right and I am making his details less clear. I think I will stay out of it. Sorry.
Kevan,
You’re alright.
I think y’all have taught me about as much as I’m going to be able to learn for now. This is Blow Number 95, and the horse is probably dead. Thanks for your indulgence.
Like I said, I try to avoid presumption. It is a sin.
But where do you see “presumption” ? If the BIBLE tells me that Jesus Himself intercedes for me and other believers, is it a SIN to believe what the Scriptures say ?
“Reject a factious man after a first and second warning”
Sola Scriptura is not something Cathoics can use, and I think youknow this already.