"Imagine" - John Lennon

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Bobby_Jim

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So I heard this song today… like many people I’m sure, I have always had mixed feelings about it. Parts of it are very idealistic. Then again I don’t buy into the “imagine no religion” part. But apart from the words I just kind of like it - sparse, simple piano arrangement, etc.

But I was thinking about it a different way when I heard it… John Lennon himself was somewhat of a troubled man, and made what I would consider some poor choices in his life. As many of us do - certainly we are all sinners. But on the one hand we have an idealistic anthem about how we can all live in peace, and the world can live as one, if we can only put aside divisive things like religion. And then in his own life he leaves behind a string of broken relationships including practically abandoning his son from his first marriage.

I’m not sure quite how to articulate this… something about having this idealistic vision, but failing to recognize that it begins with individuals. It’s not primarily about big cosmic things like religion and heaven and hell and “the world” living as one. But rather it’s about personal choices, and loving your neighbor as yourself. And I would of course say it’s difficult to achieve that without the grace of God and a life of faith. I think Ringo was more on track, “remember peace is how we make it” and “you know it don’t come easy.”
 
I agree with everything you say here, but I would add that what you are describing is symptomatic of almost the entire “hippie” movement, not just John Lennon.

Beneath the facade of “peace and love” lurks an insidious and, perhaps at times, unconscious misanthropy and cynicism. It is precisely the rejection of the notion of original sin and a fallen human nature that leads one to this state.

So fixated on their notion of utopia and, following the existentialism of their Beatnik forebears, denying the existence of any fixed human nature, much less a fallen human nature, they can only but blame some generalized notion of the “world” (which typically covers anyone who does not hold to the same ideal) for the wretched condition of mankind. The tacit assumption of the hippie mindset seems to be that simply adopting the ideal is sufficient to create a “new human nature,” which all of those “enlightened folk” who have adopted it now possess (thanks, Tim Leary.)

The interesting thing is that, somehow, these folks seem to experience little to no cognitive dissonance when they act in ways that completely betray their supposed enlightened altruism and all-embracing “love.” Hence we have people like John Lennon who foster and nurture full blown messianic complexes while simultaneously leaving a trail of hurt and brokenness in their wake.

But perhaps my favorite example of this “hippiepocrasy” is the comedian Bill Hicks. One of his contemporaries described him in these words: “It was Jesus Bill wanted to be. He wanted to save us all.” So how did Bill measure up? Well, within one hour he would belittle the value of human life by comparing the significance of childbirth to that of the human excretory function, use the most vitriolic speech imaginable against those less enlightened than he (particularly Christians), extol the virtues of pornography, and, of course, make sure to tip his hat to the pro-abortion lobby before wrapping it all up by telling his audience that if we would all just make a choice to love, then “we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.” The irony, apparently, was forever lost on Mr. Hicks.
 
Brilliant: " something about having this idealistic vision, but failing to recognize that it begins with individuals."
 
Bobby_Jim said:
So I heard this song today… like many people I’m sure, I have always had mixed feelings about it. Parts of it are very idealistic. Then again I don’t buy into the “imagine no religion” part. But apart from the words I just kind of like it - sparse, simple piano arrangement, etc.

But I was thinking about it a different way when I heard it… John Lennon himself was somewhat of a troubled man, and made what I would consider some poor choices in his life. As many of us do - certainly we are all sinners. But on the one hand we have an idealistic anthem about how we can all live in peace, and the world can live as one, if we can only put aside divisive things like religion. And then in his own life he leaves behind a string of broken relationships including practically abandoning his son from his first marriage.

I’m not sure quite how to articulate this… something about having this idealistic vision, but failing to recognize that it begins with individuals. It’s not primarily about big cosmic things like religion and heaven and hell and “the world” living as one. But rather it’s about personal choices, and loving your neighbor as yourself. And I would of course say it’s difficult to achieve that without the grace of God and a life of faith. I think Ringo was more on track, “remember peace is how we make it” and “you know it don’t come easy.”
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For me, the idea of the song is flawed in thinking we can achieve peace without religion when we can’t.

“What can you do to promote world peace? Go home and love your family.” Mother Teresa.

To me, John Lennon wasn’t a man of peace.

I used to accept this mentality of that time, but I have since realized that peace isn’t achieved by standing on street corners with signs and screaming. It is by obeying the 10 commandments…honoring our father and mother, respecting our neighbors and all the rest. Were we to do this, I think we could achieve peace.

Often people of the ´60s were into free “love” (sex), and drugs. None of that brings peace, quite the opposite.
 
prodigalson2011 said:
I agree with everything you say here, but I would add that what you are describing is symptomatic of almost the entire “hippie” movement, not just John Lennon.

Beneath the facade of “peace and love” lurks an insidious and, perhaps at times, unconscious misanthropy and cynicism. It is precisely the rejection of the notion of original sin and a fallen human nature that leads one to this state.

So fixated on their notion of utopia and, following the existentialism of their Beatnik forebears, denying the existence of any fixed human nature, much less a fallen human nature, they can only but blame some generalized notion of the “world” (which typically covers anyone who does not hold to the same ideal) for the wretched condition of mankind. The tacit assumption of the hippie mindset seems to be that simply adopting the ideal is sufficient to create a “new human nature,” which all of those “enlightened folk” who have adopted it now possess (thanks, Tim Leary.)

The interesting thing is that, somehow, these folks seem to experience little to no cognitive dissonance when they act in ways that completely betray their supposed enlightened altruism and all-embracing “love.” Hence we have people like John Lennon who foster and nurture full blown messianic complexes while simultaneously leaving a trail of hurt and brokenness in their wake.
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Very thoughtful response, thank you.

Another thing about that era which I think is interesting - I don’t know how significant it is - but John Lennon fits the trend - is the drug use. On the one hand, there is the “psychedelic” drug use - LSD, peyote, even marijuana - which the proponents would say open your mind, let you “tune in”, become one with the universe, etc. But how often did the same people who used those drugs “recreationally” in the '60s end up going down the road of heroin, cocaine, booze & pills, i.e. being what I would call “junkies” or addicts just looking for the next fix. Don’t know if that was truly common but anecdotally at least I’ve heard of numerous examples. Again somehow the idealism gets left behind quite readily.
 
I’m glad you started a thread about this John Lennon song. I think it’s a perfect example to use when being critical of ideals, philosophy and thoughts that are often put into, as I would like to call them, #YOLO songs.

At first I didn’t mind the song’s lyrics, but once I actually listened to it and thought about it - once I became less “liberal”, to say - I began to see how naive, destructive and shallow the song is. I enjoy the music simplicity noted by another poster and the melodic pace, though, but whenever it comes on I just become irritated by it.

Many songs in the Top 40 today reminds me of this poster: 3.bp.blogspot.com/-xT5866MV7ms/UlheP–K-XI/AAAAAAAAAkI/pKHfH8_qiZk/s1600/2013-08-08+13.09.50.jpg. Now that’s way too much sugar and positive thinking for me.
 
Longtime Beatles fan here.

Lennon WAS good at shooting himself in the foot! He made MANY poor choices in life.

His problem was an unattached intelligence combined with emotional insecurity.

His solution to this was to pose as a tough guy. . . but, really, do you think a John Lennon would’ve been that great a fighter? What did he weigh when he was 20? Maybe 150?

The group made it, made big bucks and Lennon sat on his butt doing drugs. The challenge was gone. So he basically became a thrill-seeker, and this was pretty much it for him.

I get a bit tired of people who have glommed onto the old “Lennon was the smart one” marketing hype. He was intelligent, but VERY unformed. . . and uninformed.
 
I agree. I like the tune, but not the lyrics. I have the sheet music for piano. A nice, slow song for my beginner playing skill.
 
I am was (am) a huge Beatles fan and really idealized Lennon as a kid. As an idealist I really loved that song but was always trouble at that part due to my faith. I ‘justified’ it along the lines of what Bobby Jim stated - if we could put aside our differences, including religion… But as I grow older, I don’t particularly care for the song anymore. If it comes on in the radio I change stations (like I would with any other song that doesn’t hold my interested). I don’t feel the need to idealize Lennon to the point of divinizing him anymore. He made mistakes. He sometimes wrote ****.

I like your insight Bobby Jim & prodigalson2011. I remember watching a “bed-in” or something where there were all these media guys sitting in chairs around Lennon’s bed and he and Yoko were in it. Lennon went off on a rant about the media about coming in there and blah blah blah and one of the guys said something like ‘wait a second. You invited all of us here’. I thought yeah, Lennon was a jerk (not quite the word I used but this is a Catholic website).
 
Costner said:
Off topic but I just wanted to mention that Ringo recently said that God is in his life. :thumbsup:So cool. God bless him. 🙂

Here’s a link

aceshowbiz.com/news/view/w0000872.html
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Good for Ringo! I wonder how many people of that era, given enough time, find their way back. And I wonder if given enough time, so would have John Lennon. Toward the end of his life he “settled down” a bit, being a husband and father; sometimes that (and just getting older) has an influence on people.

At the time of his death was George still more associated with Eastern religions? He was my favourite Beatle although I cringe a little bit at the "Hare Krishna"s in some of his '70s work (for example I heard on YouTube a demo version of “It Don’t Come Easy” he recorded, and he throws a “Hare Krishna” in there during an instrumental break).
 
Captain_America said:
Lennon WAS good at shooting himself in the foot! He made MANY poor choices in life.

His problem was an unattached intelligence combined with emotional insecurity.

[snip]

I get a bit tired of people who have glommed onto the old “Lennon was the smart one” marketing hype. He was intelligent, but VERY unformed. . . and uninformed.
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I think that’s a good way to put it… intelligent but unformed. Talented but also tended toward lazy.

As to the emotional insecurity - after I posted this, I read a bit more about his early life. I can understand the emotional insecurity. Among other things - at age 5 his parents split up for good, and he was made by his father to choose between them. Who does that to a 5-year-old!?! I can’t get my almost-5-year old to choose between strawberry and grape jelly on his toast!
 
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The musical composition by itself isn’t disturbing to me, I suppose, provided I don’t think about the words being sung.
Jared2914 said:
I agree. I like the tune, but not the lyrics. I have the sheet music for piano. A nice, slow song for my beginner playing skill.
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My problem is what happens when you think about the words. I have known people who have swooned over how wonderful the words are. But what do those words really say?

This thread doesn’t have a copy of them yet. Maybe that would be a good idea, because unless you really take a good hard look at the obvious meaning of the words (not hidden meanings or what they sound like backwards!) you’re not really talking about the song, yet.
.
 
Pancras said:
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This thread doesn’t have a copy of them yet. Maybe that would be a good idea, because unless you really take a good hard look at the obvious meaning of the words (not hidden meanings or what they sound like backwards!) you’re not really talking about the song, yet.
.
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Hmm, I guess I thought everyone knew them, and knew the anti-religion content… here they are.

Imagine there’s no heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today…

Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace…

You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world…

You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will live as one
 
John Lenon has been long dead, While i personally think he was a great artist.

Hes a musician not a saint, prophet or pope. ultimately thats nothing more than his opinion.
 
youtube.com/watch?v=QNk-J2TTt48

This is a bit similar. Its the ‘maybe’ song from Grizzly Adams. Its about being a dreamer and hoping and imagining another world - maybe where people and grizzly bears can be friends and live in peace and harmony.

It has to end I guess, because this life is not like that. Due to Adam and Eve this world is not perfect. Its nice to imagine though.

John Lennon was saying ‘imagine there’s no heaven’, but what he was imagining (ie. peace & harmony / living as one) was/is Heaven!
 
Oh so I was a kid in the 70s. Lennon always seemed a bit of a cry baby to me. Never really paid attention to anything he said. I couldn’t even tell you when exactly he died …that’s about how much I care. No that I wished him ill I was more into Elvis. :o He was a brilliant artist and I love the melody of his music so I can forgive him is pretentions to political activisim such as they were. It’s a song and so I look at it as a song of it’s time. Idealic, dreamy, stoic but nothing to do with reality. Paul McCartney was always my favorite Beatle. He loved and respected his wife and kids. Stayed married if he cheated I’ve never heard of it. Seemed to get past the lifesyle of the 70s if he ever indulged in it. I still respect and admire him along with Ringo. I can’t say I know much about Ringo though. Like I said before I was always more for Elvis not his lifestyle though.
 
Bobby_Jim said:
So I heard this song today… like many people I’m sure, I have always had mixed feelings about it. Parts of it are very idealistic. Then again I don’t buy into the “imagine no religion” part. But apart from the words I just kind of like it - sparse, simple piano arrangement, etc.

But I was thinking about it a different way when I heard it… John Lennon himself was somewhat of a troubled man, and made what I would consider some poor choices in his life. As many of us do - certainly we are all sinners. But on the one hand we have an idealistic anthem about how we can all live in peace, and the world can live as one, if we can only put aside divisive things like religion. And then in his own life he leaves behind a string of broken relationships including practically abandoning his son from his first marriage.

I’m not sure quite how to articulate this… something about having this idealistic vision, but failing to recognize that it begins with individuals. It’s not primarily about big cosmic things like religion and heaven and hell and “the world” living as one. But rather it’s about personal choices, and loving your neighbor as yourself. And I would of course say it’s difficult to achieve that without the grace of God and a life of faith. I think Ringo was more on track, “remember peace is how we make it” and “you know it don’t come easy.”
Click to expand...
I was there from the beginning of the Beatles to the break-up. John changed and his music became a mixture of atheistic utopianism and rants against men. John was not “I Want To Hold Your Hand” anymore. He, and the other Beatles, were manipulated by others with varying degrees of “success.”

Radical individualism began at that time period. It is a threat to society and Pope Benedict was concerned about it. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, not Hippies, anarchists and dissidents who wanted to reject everything and (A) replace it with nothing except what could be called tribalism - at best, or a beautiful Woodstock Nation.

In the end, no Woodstock Nation, just living with your girlfriend, having the regulation length hair, the regulation clothes, regulation length chain, peace symbol (cloth or metal), and talking in Hippie-speak. I mean, you couldn’t look or talk like “them” - you know, those uptight straights with all their hang-ups. And dope - lots of dope, especially marijuana.

The FBI had a thick file on John Lennon.

Peace,
Ed
 
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