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justasking4
Guest
What do you do when a pope teaches falsely then? That has happened in history.
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clmowry
Guest
Well color me confused. What?
Does this tranlsate into: Jesus could have really meant that the Church would be overcome by Hell for some period of time but at the end of time the Church would win?
Please say this is not what you mean. waits hopefully
Chuck
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VociMike
Guest
Neither of these claims is true.
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mozart-250
Guest
Well I don’t know exactly what Jesus meant for the Church, but I do know what logically can be and can not be concluded from the Scripture at hand. If the plain meaning of the verb prevail is indicative of a final status, then one can not make any inferences from this Scripture concerning any interim status.
Also the meaning of “Overcome” in the normal English usage is defeat.
So the leap here is how church teaching incorrectly on the Immaculate Conception and assumption for example means that the final status of the church is defeat by satan.
Actually it a leap to me that the church teaching incorrectly on the Immaculate Conception and assumption for example means that an interim status of the church is defeat by satan.
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justasking4
Guest
What did the apostles teach about these things?
Mary’s assumption is not mentioned until 377.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
I’m still waiting for the proof that a Pope ‘taught falsely’. Just what was this false teaching that Catholics OBVIOUSLY now must believe and practice?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Not formally they haven’t.
Just for clarification, could you provide an example of the false teaching given by a pope?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Why do you think that they were ignorant of these things?
Just because they weren’t written anywhere in the Bible?
Perhaps as a preface to this argument, you might tell us where the Bible tells us that everything that is known to be true about our faith is contained in the Bible…
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misslollipops
Guest
There is really very little written in the Bible about Mary and Not all of it is positive, especially Jesus’ words to her.Let us look at some:
Mark3:33-35
33And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
34And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Luke 11:27-28
27And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
And at Cana
John 2:4 (King James Version)
4Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
Furthermore, it is widely accepted by many that the woman in rev12 is not Mary but the nation of Israel
Could you show me where in the bible it says Mary is co mediatrix, advocate, redemptrix, etc?
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VociMike
Guest
They taught what the Church teaches today.
Not true. What you mean to say, and what is entirely different, is that Mary’s assumption is not mentioned in any of the written texts which have come down to us until one which has been dated to 377.
Now, if what you actually said was correct, and that the first teaching of Mary’s assumption did not happen until 377, then why did the Church not object in 377, or at any time after? That is the question you must answer if you are going to claim that the assumption was invented in 377.
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Tonks40
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MSParrott
Guest
Me too!
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VociMike
Guest
Where does the line form?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Once more, and this time with feeling…
Mary as Mediatrix Proved From Scripture
The Catholic Church recognizes Mary’s role in salvation history and invokes her under the title of Mediatrix. However, many people struggle to understand how Mary can have this role which they reserve for Christ alone, and they cite the following verse in support of their position:
1 Timothy 2:5-6
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
Hebrews 7:24-25
because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
Here we see that Jesus “always lives to intercede” for “those who come to God through him.” The role of the mediator and the intercessor are synonymous; a mediator lives to intercede for others.
All Christians are called to be mediators or intercessors for one another because we are all members of Christ’s body as we see from Paul’s letter to the Ephesians:
Ephesians 1:22-23
“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Paul referred to himself as a co-laborer with Christ when he wrote:
1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are God’s fellow workers.
Paul went further in his understanding of our responsibility as co-laborers with Christ when when he wrote:
Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
Is anything lacking from the perfect sacrifice that Christ offered upon the Cross? Paul clearly indicates that more is to be done and that he makes up what is “still lacking” in his own flesh.
2 Corinthians 1:6
If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation
Additionally, we know that we are called to share in the priesthood of all believers (cf. 1 Peter 2:5-9), and a priest, by definition, is called to be a mediator between God and men. Each of us is called to this role and to be a mediator or mediatrix for others before God.
Therefore, if we are all called to this role of mediator and intercessor for one another, how much more can this be said of Mary who said, “Yes” to God and brought Christ into the world?
(cont.)
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Speaking of this, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus) of the Church.
968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. “In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace.”
969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
970"Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”
967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus) of the Church.
968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. “In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace.”
969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
970"Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”
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Randy_Carson
Guest
BTW, can you show me where in the Catechism it says that Mary is redemptrix?
Perhaps the following Q&A will help:
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
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Pat_the_Cat
Guest
misslollipops, before we start arguing who’s right and who’s wrong on Marian doctrine; let’s start at the begining! Please do not think I’m trying to be patronizing, I’m genuinely trying to help you understand what we, as Catholics, believe and why?
It seems that your concept of Catholic docrine is based upon the false notion that; if something is not in Scripture, then it cannot be doctrine? Is this true? If so, can you show me a scriptural reference that proves that we can only believe doctrine that is in the scripture? or “SOLO SCRIPTURA” as some might say?
When we Catholics look at scripture it tells us that the opposite is true
, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 2Thess 2:15
Jesus also tells us that it is not Scripture that we seek but a relationship with him.
Could it be, in fact, that the “solo scriptura” docrine is non-scriptural? Yet many protestants hold on to it as an infallible teaching, do they not? something which they condemn the Catholic Church for doing, right?
Ok, if you’re still reading i’m guessing you are either very upset at my argument or are interested in where i’m going with this.
The following scripture quotes affirm that Scripture is not to be interpreted without guidance because that can be dangerous.
We Catholics believe that because Jesus KNEW our weaknesses and foresaw the fact that we would argue over who’s interpretation of the scripture was right, so He allocated His apostles to oversee the teaching of the church
And to ensure that the apostles didn’t go astray, our Lord Jesus appointed Peter to Make sure his brothers did not go astray by electing him as our first “father” or "pope"in Latin.
That’s why we Catholics believe in the Marian Dogmas. Peter’s Sucessor told us that we should and we believe him, Because Jesus is God, Jesus set up the Church, Jesus appointed the 1st Pope and He still uses that model today.
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justasking4
Guest
Where in scripture do the apostles teach the immaculate conception or her assumption?
Thats all we can go by i.e. what is written. Now if you have some documentation before 377 then please show it.
Good question. The point is that is that the earliest documentation is 377.
I didn’t say it was invented then but mentioned. If it happened it would have to be probably no later than 99 assuming she had a normal life span.
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justasking4
Guest
Here is one example of a pope teaching falsely.
Pope Honorius, who reigned as bishop of Rome from 625 to 638 A.D. In a number of letters written to Sergius I, patriarch of Constantinople, and several other individuals, Honorius officially embraced the heresy of montheletism, which teaches that Christ had only one will, the divine.
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