Immaculate Conception of Mary

[justasking4]

No it does not. If it did it would include Jesus as well.

Jesus is in a different category. He is both man and God. Adam and Eve were also for a time in a different category i.e. direct creation of God. All after Adam have sinned or are born with a fallen sin nature.

The word for all is pas which is not “all without exception” or “absolutely all”. The Paul had used the Greek word “Hapas” instead, then your interpretation would be correct but that would include the Human nature of Christ as well. “Hapas” is the only one of the words used in the Greek that has a definition of “all without exception” or “absolutely all”

No, she did not acknowledge she NEEDED a savior. She acknowledged that she was ALREADY saved and she acknowledged who her SAVIOR is, that being GOD.

Where in this text do you get the idea that she was already saved?

We have. The Greek Lexicon uses only the ROOT of the actual word used. Strong’s numbers are misleading. He intends you to believe that the actual Greek word used is charito. See the above post on the treatment of the word that is found in the Greek.

 

[JoeyWarren]

justasking4 said: Where in this text do you get the idea that she was already saved?

The Greek behind the English.

Here is an adequate study of scripture:
direct address

When Gabriel appears to Mary, the first words he says to her are “Chaire, kecharitomene!” [Caire, kecaritomene!]. Chaire (which means both “rejoice” and “hail”) is the salutation, like the word “hello” in “hello, Cathy!” The word that follows, kecharitomene, is the direct address. In the previous example, the name “Cathy” is the direct address. A direct address is usually a name or title (or pronoun taking the place of a name or title) which represents the identity of the person being spoken to. Gabriel identifies Mary with a single term: not the name “Mary,” but the word kecharitomene.
Here, a common translation problem occurs. Gabriel only uses one word to refer to Mary, but most English translations do not. One particularly bad translation renders kecharitomene as “highly favored daughter.” Kecharitomene is extended from one word to three. The direct address in the translation is “daughter,” a word which does not appear in the Greek at all (as will be shown below). “Daughter” is then modified with a relevant word. This doesn’t really do kecharitomene justice. The same is true of translations which make the direct address “you” or “one” and modify it with adjectives or appositive phrases.

caritow

The root word is charitoo [caritow], which means “to grace, favor.” On this much, it seems, all agree. All the common English translations of the word therefore, regardless of whether the translators are Catholic or Protestant, use some form of “grace” or “favor” in them.

ke

The prefix on charitoo is ke, signifying that the word is in the perfect tense. This indicates a present state which is the result of a completed past action. The action which brought about the state in which Mary is, in other words, was completed before Gabriel’s greeting. Gabriel is viewing the finished results.

This tense seems difficult to render in English, especially with one word, as Gabriel uses. The translator does not only want to indicate that the past action is complete, but also that there is a continuing state as a result. Allowing for more than one word, an example of the tense in English might be “you are certified to teach.” “Are” indicates a present state, “certified” shows that the state is the result of a completed past action.

mene

The suffix on charitoo, mene, makes this a passive participle. “Passive” means that the action is performed on the subject, in this case Mary, by another agent. The verb is “grace” and the implied subject is Mary. The passive usage means that “someone graced Mary,” rather than “Mary graced.” Most theologians would probably accept the assumption that the implied “someone” is God. “Participle,” in this case, means that the word has properties of both a verb and a noun. This makes sense in light of what has already been said about direct address. A direct address is a noun or pronoun, but “to grace” is a verb. Kecharitomene has verb and noun properties.

 

[JoeyWarren]

justasking4 said: Where in this text do you get the idea that she was already saved?

Let me point it out.

Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν, Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ.

Can you say “Kecharitomene”?

 

[JoeyWarren]

justasking4 said: Where in this text do you get the idea that she was already saved?

Let us also examine a few verses later the same 1st chapter of Luke.

42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and **blessed **is the fruit(JESUS) of thy womb. A statement of equality in the state of Grace, Mary is graced as much as the child that is in her womb.

43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord**(JESUS aka GOD THE SON)** should come to me?

*Mother of my Lord *
Jesus is Lord
Jesis is God the Son
Mother of my God the Son

44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord(GOD).

46 And Mary said, My **soul **doth magnify the Lord(GOD),

47 And my spirit(notice that it is her spirt not her body) hath rejoiced (notice the past tense) in God(Not the future Jesus) my Saviour.(not a future savior). She has a Savior in the Present Tense combined with the past tense of “hath” and “rejoiced” indicates being saved already.

 

[JoeyWarren]

justasking4 said: Jesus is in a different category. He is both man and God. Adam and Eve were also for a time in a different category i.e. direct creation of God. All after Adam have sinned or are born with a fallen sin nature.

Different Category?

I’ll buy that.

Mary is in a different category as well.(Her specialized state of Grace as indicated in above posts shows this.)

John the Baptist is in a different category as well.

 

[justasking4]

Different Category?

I’ll buy that.

Mary is in a different category as well.(Her specialized state of Grace as indicated in above posts shows this.)

She is not in a different category by nature. She to inherited the sin nature as all men and women born. There is no way around this. This would also included the baptist as well.

 

[justasking4]

The Greek behind the English.

Here is an adequate study of scripture:
direct address

When Gabriel appears to Mary, the first words he says to her are “Chaire, kecharitomene!” [Caire, kecaritomene!]. Chaire (which means both “rejoice” and “hail”) is the salutation, like the word “hello” in “hello, Cathy!” The word that follows, kecharitomene, is the direct address. In the previous example, the name “Cathy” is the direct address. A direct address is usually a name or title (or pronoun taking the place of a name or title) which represents the identity of the person being spoken to. Gabriel identifies Mary with a single term: not the name “Mary,” but the word kecharitomene.
Here, a common translation problem occurs. Gabriel only uses one word to refer to Mary, but most English translations do not. One particularly bad translation renders kecharitomene as “highly favored daughter.” Kecharitomene is extended from one word to three. The direct address in the translation is “daughter,” a word which does not appear in the Greek at all (as will be shown below). “Daughter” is then modified with a relevant word. This doesn’t really do kecharitomene justice. The same is true of translations which make the direct address “you” or “one” and modify it with adjectives or appositive phrases.

caritow

The root word is charitoo [caritow], which means “to grace, favor.” On this much, it seems, all agree. All the common English translations of the word therefore, regardless of whether the translators are Catholic or Protestant, use some form of “grace” or “favor” in them.

ke

The prefix on charitoo is ke, signifying that the word is in the perfect tense. This indicates a present state which is the result of a completed past action. The action which brought about the state in which Mary is, in other words, was completed before Gabriel’s greeting. Gabriel is viewing the finished results.

This tense seems difficult to render in English, especially with one word, as Gabriel uses. The translator does not only want to indicate that the past action is complete, but also that there is a continuing state as a result. Allowing for more than one word, an example of the tense in English might be “you are certified to teach.” “Are” indicates a present state, “certified” shows that the state is the result of a completed past action.

mene

The suffix on charitoo, mene, makes this a passive participle. “Passive” means that the action is performed on the subject, in this case Mary, by another agent. The verb is “grace” and the implied subject is Mary. The passive usage means that “someone graced Mary,” rather than “Mary graced.” Most theologians would probably accept the assumption that the implied “someone” is God. “Participle,” in this case, means that the word has properties of both a verb and a noun. This makes sense in light of what has already been said about direct address. A direct address is a noun or pronoun, but “to grace” is a verb. Kecharitomene has verb and noun properties.

You prove my point. What this shows is that the angel’ salutation is just that. It does not mean that she was without sin before or after this. This is where there is so many problems in these marian dogmas. The church tries to make the scriptures say what it does not.

 

[justasking4]

God can save us without sending his own Son to become human and sacrifice his life for humanity, but he doesn’t. God can zap his Son into existence as a full-grown adult with no human mother, but doesn’t.

It’s not about what God can or cannot do, but what he chooses to do. He chose to keep the Ark of the Covenant pure and untouchable in the OT, he chooses to keep Mary, the New Ark, pure and untouchable as well. He chose to undo Adam’s fall through the New Adam, Jesus. So he chose ot undo Eve’s contribution to the fall by creating her perfect counterpart in Mary.

Where in the NT does it refer to Mary as the Ark? Keep in mind that the differences between the 2 tells us that these 2 things don’t go together. The ark was composed of wood and is not living. That is opposite of the nature of Mary who was living and made of flesh.

 

[Mannyfit75]

She is not in a different category by nature. She to inherited the sin nature as all men and women born. There is no way around this. This would also included the baptist as well.

If you say that Mary inherited the sin of Adam, and since Jesus is from the flesh of Mary then he took has inherited it because he is human as well as God.

Man’s sin is a direct influence of Satan. To say that Mary was sinful, it would mean that Satan has victory over the Mother of Our Lord. I doubt God would create a woman and allow sin to stain her soul.

God’s grace saved Mary from the moment of her conception. This is exactly why Archangel Gabriel called Mary, “Hail, Full of Grace. The Lord is With You.”

kecharitomene, “graced,” “endowed with grace.” Jerome, in translating this Greek word, uses the Latin circumlocution gratis plena, “full of grace.” CRI accuses Jerome of mistranslation and tries to refute Karl Keating’s explanation of the original kecharitomene.(Elliott Miller, “The Mary of Roman Catholicism,” Christian Research Journal, Summer 1990, 14. The second part of Miller’s article appeared in the Fall 1990 issue. In these notes the two parts are referred to as Part 1 and Part 2.)

Keating writes: “This grace . . . is at once permanent and of a singular kind. The Greek indicates a perfection of grace. A perfection must be perfect not only intensively, but extensively. The grace Mary enjoyed must not only have been as ‘full’ or strong or complete as possible at any given time, but it must have extended over the whole of her life, from conception. That is, she must have been in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called ‘full of grace’ or to have been filled with divine favor in a singular way. This is just what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception holds.”(Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1988), 269.)

For more article refer to: catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9209fea2.asp

 

[Mannyfit75]

Where in the NT does it refer to Mary as the Ark? Keep in mind that the differences between the 2 tells us that these 2 things don’t go together. The ark was composed of wood and is not living. That is opposite of the nature of Mary who was living and made of flesh.

Revelation 11:19 to Revelation 12:1

Then God’s Temple in heaven opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple, and there was a flash of lightning, loud noises, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

continue on

Revelation 12:1

And a great sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars, she was with child and she cried out her pangs of birth.

This woman is Mary because the male child is Jesus. We know the child is Jesus because he will rule all nations with an iron rod, and he was caught up to God and to his throne, which John was refering to Jesus’ ascension into heaven.

If you read Revelation 11:19- Revelation 12:1 at the time it was written, there were no verse nor chapters. A 1st Century Christian know can easily identify the woman as Mary and the child as Jesus. They also identify Mary as the Ark.

So if you were to read it without the Chapter and verse it would read something like this.

Revelation

Then God’s Temple in heaven opened and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple and there was a flash of lightning loud noises peals of thunder an earthquake and heavy hail And a great sign appeared in heaven a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of twelve stars she was with child and she cried out her pangs of birth

Note I remove the Chapters, verses, and commas. The sentence is continuous.

Many of the ECF also believe this.

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

Notice the parallel between these two passages from the Bible.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

Mary Ark of the New Covenant. Who is the New Covenant?

Jesus said, “This is the Blood of the New Covenant.” Jesus is the New Covenant.

 

[Good_Fella]

Justasking4, Genesis 3:15 makes it clear that Mary was already saved
when she was conceived in a state of sanctifying grace, free from original
sin. God put complete enmity between the woman and the serpent.

 

[Randy_Carson]

She is not in a different category by nature. She to inherited the sin nature as all men and women born. There is no way around this. This would also included the baptist as well.

This is incorrect.

By a singular act of grace, God prevented Mary from being stained by original sin. This is why it is called the “Immaculate Conception”.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

Where in the NT does it refer to Mary as the Ark? Keep in mind that the differences between the 2 tells us that these 2 things don’t go together. The ark was composed of wood and is not living. That is opposite of the nature of Mary who was living and made of flesh.

justasking4, where does the Bible refer to God as a trinity?

I understand you have accepted a false doctrine of sola scriptura, but I will not be bound by your error.

Jesus left an infallible Church to teach in his name.

That Church infallibly states that Mary was conceived without sin.

End of story.

:coffeeread:

What? You want more?

Oh…sure, we can argue about it some more if you want, and I’ll try to point out what you cannot see in the Bible, but at the end of the day, you either accept the existence of an infallible Church that is directly linked to Jesus and the Apostles through Apostolic Succession or you don’t.

If you don’t, then we should start there…and not with the Immaculate Conception.

You have the cart before the horse.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Mannyfit75]

darn, I forgot to remove the comma between the sun, and with.

 

[Mannyfit75]

((This is a repost I posted earlier))
justasking:

Where in the NT does it refer to Mary as the Ark? Keep in mind that the differences between the 2 tells us that these 2 things don’t go together. The ark was composed of wood and is not living. That is opposite of the nature of Mary who was living and made of flesh.

It is mention in Revelation 11:19 to Revelation 12:1

**Then God’s Temple in heaven opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple, and there was a flash of lightning, loud noises, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. **

continue on

Revelation 12:1

**
And a great sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars, she was with child and she cried out her pangs of birth. **

This woman is Mary because the male child is Jesus. We know the child is Jesus because he will rule all nations with an iron rod, and he was caught up to God and to his throne, which John was refering to Jesus’ ascension into heaven.

If you read Revelation 11:19- Revelation 12:1 at the time it was written, there were no verse nor chapters. A 1st Century Christian know can easily identify the woman as Mary and the child as Jesus. They also identify Mary as the Ark.

So if you were to read it without the Chapter and verse it would read something like this.

Revelation 11:19 and Rev 12:1 would be read like this.

Then God’s Temple in heaven opened and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple and there was a flash of lightning loud noises peals of thunder an earthquake and heavy hail And a great sign appeared in heaven a woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of twelve stars she was with child and she cried out her pangs of birth

Note I remove the Chapters, verses, and commas. The sentence is continuous.

In the NT, she is describe as a type of Ark not the Ark but a living Ark. She carried the Word of God, Jesus.

In the OT, the Ark of the Old Covenant contain the Tablets of the Ten Commandments, Aaron’s Staff, and Manna that fed the Jews in the Desert.

Jesus is the fulfilment in all these. He is the Word of God, the Highpriest and the Bread of Life. He was also born in the Bethelem which means House of Bread.

Mary is truly the New Ark of the New Covenant. From her, Jesus was born.

Many of the ECF also believe this.

Quote:
“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

Quote:
“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

Notice the parallel between these two passages from the Bible.

Quote:
Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

Mary Ark of the New Covenant. Who is the New Covenant?

Jesus said, “This is the Blood of the New Covenant.” Jesus is the New Covenant.

---

Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women (Luke 1:28)

Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Luke 1:42).

 

[metal1633]

Hi all!

I am not yet a Catholic, but I do have this one nagging question for which I hope I might find some help. I still cannot get my head around the necessity for the doctrine of Mary being conceived without sin.

My initial objection always seems to be the same: if the reason for Mary being without Original Sin is that only in this way would Jesus be born without Original Sin, then in order for Mary to be born without OS, Anne should have been born without it as well. But by this line of logic, it would extend all the way back to a point where a denial of Original Sin is happening.

Please help, as I am unsure as to whether or not I fully understand the doctrine, much less how to understand explaining it.

Thanks very much!

Mary did not HAVE to be born without Original Sin. It was a Gift of God to His Mother.

 

[kaycee]

Justasking4, Genesis 3:15 makes it clear that Mary was already saved
when she was conceived in a state of sanctifying grace, free from original sin. God put complete enmity between the woman and the serpent.

That verse says absolutely NOTHING about the State of “the woman”.

It says enmity between the woman and the serpant. Enmity is used to connote tension or hostility between two enemies, families, or individuals

 

[Mannyfit75]

That verse says absolutely NOTHING about the State of “the woman”.

It says enmity between the woman and the serpant. Enmity is used to connote tension or hostility between two enemies, families, or individuals

I had to agree with you on this. Genesis 3:15 is refer to as the proto-evangelium (first Gospels) because it foretold that from the woman, her seed will crush the serpent’s, the seed is Jesus.

 

[kaycee]

Jesus left an infallible Church to teach in his name.

That Church infallibly states that Mary was conceived without sin.

End of story.

Clearly this is a perfect example of Magesterium superceding over the God-Breathed scriptures. Trust in the church no matter what the scripture says. Sola Ecclesia.

The violence to the plain meaning of scripture for the sake of tradition is stunning.

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

1 tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

 

[JaneFrances]

That verse says absolutely NOTHING about the State of “the woman”.

It says enmity between the woman and the serpant. Enmity is used to connote tension or hostility between two enemies, families, or individuals

While understanding the Biblical term “emnity” to connote hostility is well founded, the sense of the word “tension” is an understatement within the context of Genesis 3:15.

The Greek, 'ayab, is most accurately translated in Biblical usage to mean:

1. to be hostile to, to be an enemy to

a) (Qal)

1. to be hostile to
2. to treat as an enemy

The enemy status between the woman and the serpent is polar. The woman, the mother of the Messiah, typifies grace, while the serpent, Satan, typifies sin. The polar enemies of grace and sin/woman and serpent do not allow for the understated sense of “tension,” but rather the realization that grace and sin are so opposed that each exists as the natural enemy of the other.